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  1. #1

    0-10V Signal Not working w/ HY VFD

    I have a NEMA34 plug 'n' play electronics system, and am using Mach4. I just bought a Huanyang HY VFD - everything is working great except the 0-10V signal doesn't get to 10V when connected to the VFD.

    If I unplug the 0-10V wires from the VFD, the wires measure 0V at minimum speed command, and 10V at max speed - just as I would expect.

    However, when I plug it into the VFD, when I command full speed in Mach4 (24000RPM), the terminals only measure about 8V, and the spindle only gets to about 20,400 RPM.

    I have contacted AVID support, so I'll see what they say --- has anyone encountered this issue and been able to fix it themselves? Thanks.

    I found a similar thread to this issue - it's not clear to me if a new board fixed it or different settings.

    https://www.cnczone.com/forums/avid-...mp-play-2.html

  2. #2
    Community Moderator ger21's Avatar
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    Re: 0-10V Signal Not working w/ HY VFD

    Not sure what speed control AVID uses, but most speed controls have a small voltage drop at max voltage, but it's usually a little over 9V.
    Most VFD's have settings to compensate, but the HY does not.

    Hopefully AVID has a solution.

    What I did (using UCCNC) was to set the max PWM in the software to 50% and set the Huanyang to 0-5V, and it worked well.
    Gerry

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  3. #3

    Re: 0-10V Signal Not working w/ HY VFD

    Yea unfortunately the HY is a fixed 0-10V. If I could adjust the 10V down to 8V, this would be easily solved.

  4. #4
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    Re: 0-10V Signal Not working w/ HY VFD

    Quote Originally Posted by Wood768dGuy View Post
    Yea unfortunately the HY is a fixed 0-10V. If I could adjust the 10V down to 8V, this would be easily solved.
    What is the wire / cable you are using to connect it to the VFD Drive it may not be suitable

    If it is a genuine Huanyang then it has both 0-10v or 0-5v option
    Mactec54

  5. #5

    Re: 0-10V Signal Not working w/ HY VFD

    The cable is suitable - it's AVID's OEM cable. It's 20AWG wire. This is not a voltage drop due to wire resistance. I'm not sure anyone could buy a cable with wire small enough to have that be the issue - I could be using ethernet cable w/ 26AWG wire and it would be sufficient.

    My next step is to move two wires inside the AVID control box, and switch to PWM signal that their breakout board outputs.

  6. #6
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    Re: 0-10V Signal Not working w/ HY VFD

    Quote Originally Posted by Wood768dGuy View Post
    The cable is suitable - it's AVID's OEM cable. It's 20AWG wire. This is not a voltage drop due to wire resistance. I'm not sure anyone could buy a cable with wire small enough to have that be the issue - I could be using ethernet cable w/ 26AWG wire and it would be sufficient.

    My next step is to move two wires inside the AVID control box, and switch to PWM signal that their breakout board outputs.
    You would be surprised what wire some people use I have seen 10Gauge Romex solid core wire used so one has to ask

    You can only use the PWM signal if you have a Digital to Analog converter to give you the 0-5v or 0-10v analog, output You can not connect the PWM signal direct to the VFD Drive you have

    A PWM output is not normally used for VFD Drive control, you can use a regular spare output with a converter
    Mactec54

  7. #7

    Re: 0-10V Signal Not working w/ HY VFD

    Still haven't heard back from AVID - I get it, they're swamped right now. I did some linear regression analysis, and managed to get my spindle speed to +/- 3% of my desired speed, which is plenty good enough for hobby CNC'ing.

    I recorded some data in 2000 RPM increments. i.e. recorded commanded RPM vs. VFD output freq. Then did a linear regression analysis in excel to come up with values for PD072 and PD073 in the HY VFD.

    I attached the data and the chart I made to show how it was done, in case any poor soul runs into this in the future. It's definitely "good enough" for me since I almost exclusively cut wood.

  8. #8
    Community Moderator ger21's Avatar
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    Re: 0-10V Signal Not working w/ HY VFD

    Didn't realize you could adjust that with those settings. Funny that the manual says 0-400, but it allows 459.
    Gerry

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  9. #9

    Re: 0-10V Signal Not working w/ HY VFD

    Yea I got lucky there - I had the exact same thought. I tried to program 401 Hz into PD072 before I went thru the trouble of doing this analysis...was pleasantly surprised it worked!

  10. #10
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    Re: 0-10V Signal Not working w/ HY VFD

    Quote Originally Posted by Wood768dGuy View Post
    Yea I got lucky there - I had the exact same thought. I tried to program 401 Hz into PD072 before I went thru the trouble of doing this analysis...was pleasantly surprised it worked!
    Yes this means you are pushing higher Frequency into the spindle for the low voltage compensation not ideal as the spindle is only rated for 400Hz but if it lasts ok and works go for it

    Some use pulley ratio adjustment in there control software and the PWM Frequency to adjust for the spindle speeds
    Mactec54

  11. #11

    Re: 0-10V Signal Not working w/ HY VFD

    The VFD is programmed to 400 Hz max. PD005 = 400 sets the max frequency the VFD will output. The VFD never drives higher than 400 Hz.

    PD072 and PD073 program the curve the selected signal (in my case 0-10V, PD070=0) the VFD uses to calculate desired output frequency from the 0-10V signal. If that calculation yields a value higher than 400Hz, the VFD will only output 400 Hz.



    On your note about PWM frequency - I don't see how that would varying PWM frequency would have any affect on anything, since PWM, by definition, has a fixed frequency. If it's a variable frequency signal, then it is not a PWM signal.

  12. #12
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    Re: 0-10V Signal Not working w/ HY VFD

    Quote Originally Posted by Wood768dGuy View Post
    The VFD is programmed to 400 Hz max. PD005 = 400 sets the max frequency the VFD will output. The VFD never drives higher than 400 Hz.

    PD072 and PD073 program the curve the selected signal (in my case 0-10V, PD070=0) the VFD uses to calculate desired output frequency from the 0-10V signal. If that calculation yields a value higher than 400Hz, the VFD will only output 400 Hz.



    On your note about PWM frequency - I don't see how that would varying PWM frequency would have any affect on anything, since PWM, by definition, has a fixed frequency. If it's a variable frequency signal, then it is not a PWM signal.
    In your control you can change the PWM output to what ever you want, unless you control has it fixed which I doubt that they have done that

    The PWM depending on the Breakout Board converter changing this can change the voltage output on most boards 100 is normally 10v 50 is 5v you can usually change this number to get your 10v output or 5v which ever you want to use

    Without measuring the frequency you don't really know what it is doing

    PD072
    PD073
    Are both spindle speed control changing either numbers will change the spindle speed regardless of the PD070 voltage

    I'm not sure how this will affect the VFD Drive component's in the long term, time will tell I'm sure the components have some over rating before they fail
    Mactec54

  13. #13

    Re: 0-10V Signal Not working w/ HY VFD

    The output I am using on my BoB is 0-10VDC. It is not a PWM signal. My breakout board offers only 0-5V PWM and 0-10VDC.

    I can see on the frequency display on the VFD that it never commands the above 400 HZ. I also have a photo tach that reads speed is not exceeding 24,000 RPM.

    The VFD drive components are not seeing anything out of the norm b/c the voltage from my BoB to the VFD is only 0-8VDC - which is the problem I had that started this whole thread.

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    You can only use the PWM signal if you have a Digital to Analog converter to give you the 0-5v or 0-10v analog, output You can not connect the PWM signal direct to the VFD Drive you have
    Lastly - this comment here regarding the need for a converter is flatly wrong. I connected the 0-5V PWM from my BoB directly to ACM/VI terminals on the VFD, set PD070=0 (configures input for 0-5V) and everything works perfectly fine.

    For posterity should anyone stumble upon this later, this was my final solution -

    PD070=1 (0-5V)
    PD072=400 (Higher frequency. i.e. 5V = 400Hz)
    PD073=100 (Lower frequency. i.e. 0V = 100 Hz)

    Default freq. of the PWM signal by default from AVID/Warp9 is 2kHz.

  14. #14
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    Re: 0-10V Signal Not working w/ HY VFD

    Quote Originally Posted by Wood768dGuy View Post
    The output I am using on my BoB is 0-10VDC. It is not a PWM signal. My breakout board offers only 0-5V PWM and 0-10VDC.

    I can see on the frequency display on the VFD that it never commands the above 400 HZ. I also have a photo tach that reads speed is not exceeding 24,000 RPM.

    The VFD drive components are not seeing anything out of the norm b/c the voltage from my BoB to the VFD is only 0-8VDC - which is the problem I had that started this whole thread.
    No one has disputed that you spindle is running at 400Hz= 24,000RPM I have setup hundreds of these and repaired them also this is normal


    Quote Originally Posted by Wood768dGuy View Post
    Lastly - this comment here regarding the need for a converter is flatly wrong. I connected the 0-5V PWM from my BoB directly to ACM/VI terminals on the VFD, set PD070=0 (configures input for 0-5V) and everything works perfectly fine.
    You got lucky the PWM must be very good for it to be working without a converter as your VFD Drive can normally only work with an Analog input 0-10v or 0-5V ( Check the Manual )

    Quote Originally Posted by Wood768dGuy View Post
    For posterity should anyone stumble upon this later, this was my final solution -
    PD070=1 (0-5V)
    PD072=400 (Higher frequency. i.e. 5V = 400Hz)
    PD073=100 (Lower frequency. i.e. 0V = 100 Hz)

    And this is what everybody does already if they have a problem with the 0-10v this is nothing new users here have been doing it this way for many years we also mentioned this in other posts here in this thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Wood768dGuy View Post
    Default freq. of the PWM signal by default from AVID/Warp9 is 2kHz.
    So you are using the Smooth Stepper you have never said that before that changes a lot of things

    I would suggest you go through the Warp9 setup manual, they have a section on how to setup your spindle as your settings by default will not be correct

    https://warp9td.com/index.php/gettin...epper-and-mach
    Mactec54

  15. #15

    Re: 0-10V Signal Not working w/ HY VFD

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    No one has disputed that you spindle is running at 400Hz= 24,000RPM I have setup hundreds of these and repaired them also this is normal
    See this statement here:

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    Yes this means you are pushing higher Frequency into the spindle for the low voltage compensation not ideal as the spindle is only rated for 400Hz but if it lasts ok and works go for it
    Sounds a lot like you think I'm pushing a frequency higher than the rated 400Hz.

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    You got lucky the PWM must be very good for it to be working without a converter as your VFD Drive can normally only work with an Analog input 0-10v or 0-5V.
    Respectfully disagree, found several other threads where others have fed a 0-5V PWM into the 0-5V input - lots of Shapeoko users, etc. This is ultimately what lead me to try it despite the fact you said it wouldn't work. The place people run into issues is if the frequency of the PWM is too low - I tested and the speed is rather unstable < 1000 Hz.

    I have an AVID CNC, which I stated in my initial post - it ships with an Ethernet Smoothstepper and pre-configured from AVID to be set up correctly to control a spindle. I did review thoroughly the settings and they are set up correctly.

    There is a serious mismatch in the certitude of your suggestions and accuracy contained therein.

  16. #16
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    Re: 0-10V Signal Not working w/ HY VFD

    Quote Originally Posted by Wood768dGuy View Post
    See this statement here: Sounds a lot like you think I'm pushing a frequency higher than the rated 400Hz.
    You where: to compensate for the low voltage instead of fixing the real problem, that is what you posted you where doing


    Quote Originally Posted by Wood768dGuy View Post
    Respectfully disagree, found several other threads where others have fed a 0-5V PWM into the 0-5V input - lots of Shapeoko users, etc. This is ultimately what lead me to try it despite the fact you said it wouldn't work. The place people run into issues is if the frequency of the PWM is too low - I tested and the speed is rather unstable < 1000 Hz.
    Not everyone has a Smooth Stepper where you can crank up the PWM Frequency to try and make it look like an analog signal

    How long will it last with that High frequency being used the High Frequency PWM will make it look like it is similar to an analog signal only time will tell as to how long the VFD Drive will handle's this before it fails

    You need to put a scope on it to see how nasty it is, and put a low pass filter on it, hats off to the manufacture if it survives it means they have compensated for it and made there VFD Drive immune to multiple options

    Quote Originally Posted by Wood768dGuy View Post
    I have an AVID CNC, which I stated in my initial post - it ships with an Ethernet Smoothstepper and pre-configured from AVID to be set up correctly to control a spindle. I did review thoroughly the settings and they are set up correctly.
    But you can adjust Parameters from what the setup Parameters are to get the outputs you require

    You are not the first one to have this problem with there Breakout Board, they have changed there Breakout Board for some of there customers to solve this problem


    As for this post
    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54
    Yes this means you are pushing higher Frequency into the spindle for the low voltage compensation not ideal as the spindle is only rated for 400Hz but if it lasts ok and works go for it

    Yes I could of worded that post a little better, just one word incorrect it should of been VFD Drive it is obvious by the post that it is related to the low voltage compensation which can only be changed by the VFD Drive, or in the control
    Mactec54

  17. #17
    Community Moderator ger21's Avatar
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    Re: 0-10V Signal Not working w/ HY VFD

    You where: to compensate for the low voltage instead of fixing the real problem, that is what you posted you where doing
    No, not if you read what he wrote.
    He would have IF he was providing 10V, but he wasn't. He adjusted the VFD to get 400Hz at less than 10V.
    Gerry

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  18. #18
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    Re: 0-10V Signal Not working w/ HY VFD

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    No, not if you read what he wrote.
    He would have IF he was providing 10V, but he wasn't. He adjusted the VFD to get 400Hz at less than 10V.
    I think there is a misunderstanding adding 459Hz to PD072 was to increase the frequency to compensate for the low voltage nothing more to it
    Mactec54

  19. #19

    Re: 0-10V Signal Not working w/ HY VFD

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    You where: to compensate for the low voltage instead of fixing the real problem, that is what you posted you where doing
    No I wasn't. PD005=400 places a hard upper limit on the frequency output at 400HZ. While the VFD may have calculated a frequency greater than 400HZ based on the control voltage, it would never actually output something higher than 400HZ. Under no circumstance would the VFD output more than 400HZ.

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    How long will it last with that High frequency being used the High Frequency PWM will make it look like it is similar to an analog signal only time will tell as to how long the VFD Drive will handle's this before it fails

    You need to put a scope on it to see how nasty it is, and put a low pass filter on it, hats off to the manufacture if it survives it means they have compensated for it and made there VFD Drive immune to multiple options
    I stand by my earlier comment regarding certitude vs. accuracy.

    Why anyone would do this on a $100 VFD when there are a great number of folks that have had it wired this way for years with success is beyond me. This is a solution in search of a problem.

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    Re: 0-10V Signal Not working w/ HY VFD

    Quote Originally Posted by Wood768dGuy View Post
    No I wasn't. PD005=400 places a hard upper limit on the frequency output at 400HZ. While the VFD may have calculated a frequency greater than 400HZ based on the control voltage, it would never actually output something higher than 400HZ. Under no circumstance would the VFD output more than 400HZ.
    You have no clue what or how your VFD Drive works

    PD072 has noting to do with PD005=400 you did a Graph to show us that you could use PD072 to compensate for the low voltage, I guess it did not work out for you or you would be still using it, Pos # 7 says what you hoped would work


    Quote Originally Posted by Wood768dGuy View Post
    Why anyone would do this on a $100 VFD when there are a great number of folks that have had it wired this way for years with success is beyond me. This is a solution in search of a problem.
    That is totally false information you are the first here on the Zone to post with a Huanyang that you are using a PWM signal to control the speed on this VFD Drive, there is no one here been doing this for years most who have tried failed

    The only reason you can use it is because of the high frequency output you have, all it is doing it is trying to fool the drive into thinking it is an analog signal
    Mactec54

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