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  1. #1
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    15" OI TT1800SY

    My lead guy didn't come in today- took a personal day. End of last week morale was pretty low. The TT1800SY with the new 15" OI control has been on the floor 5 weeks and isn't machine ready because the tool load monitoring isn't working.

    I wanted to buy a 31I model, but they are apparently not available anymore. This is not normal for us to have Doosans that can't be completed through floor install to an operable condition with no end in sight.

    I don't have communication with anyone from corporate. We tried to reach out to Jamie Ochs for this but couldn't reach him. Ellison seems busy, I get the feeling they are not logistically able to support this install, because it has reached a technical level that is potentially beyond anyone they have to support it with.

    This machine was apparently fielded before it was developed to a sale ready condition.

    End of last week we put a third job in our 15" OI puma, and it had one episode where it spit us a bunch of the weird looking loads like the TT is outputting everywhere, but they were all spindle loads, and we just shut spindle monitoring off for that job. It seems 15" OI is not handling load monitoring like the 10.4" OI.

  2. #2
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    Re: 15" OI TT1800SY

    You do know that the footer of every post I've ever made here... Has my cell number and email address on it.
    Doosan Service Technician
    darryl.hardt@doosanmt.com O:973-618-2461 M:973-803-9479

  3. #3
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    Re: 15" OI TT1800SY

    I do have the classroom manuals for it,if you need. PM me.

  4. #4
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    Re: 15" OI TT1800SY

    Quote Originally Posted by DouglasR View Post
    I do have the classroom manuals for it,if you need. PM me.
    I appreciate finally reaching a person here. Ellison had an applications guy back on Monday of last week, and he was bouncing ladders and PLCs off Korean Doosan a couple times last week.

    My sales guy told me today, he finally ran out of patience last Friday and pushed this to the top of Doosan infrastructure in Korea, and I guess they are working on ladder modifications to allow tool load monitoring to experience a "break event" and stop the machining process as it could in the 31I TT1800SY which we would have happily purchased for an additional $13,000 were it not for the fact we were told the 31I TT1800SY no longer existed for sale. This machine has cost us now about $144,000 in gross before cost run time at 24 hours a day if it was functioning within 3 weeks of arrival, which is only frustrating because a 31I TT would have eliminated this whole negative situation.

    The OI TT1800SY is of course a totally different TT1800SY that has a lot of similarity to the old 31I TT1800SY but isn't the same machine. We are of course unhappy it's been 6 weeks here and isn't running, but it's getting worked on and we hope Korea figures it out and realizes machines need to be properly developed before sale, because we would like to run the job that is settup in this machine, and we would also like to know they have a solution that allows us to potentially buy another TT1800SY later.

    Ellison is also going to attempt to install Fanuc "Machining condition select" in one of our OI Puma 2100SY II's and see if that allows us to use G05.1 R settings and tune G05.1 acceleration / deceleration for faster milling operations that feature a lot of lines of code. We are hoping to get a quote on AICC II look ahead for lathes also, and are hoping to figure out how to get an OI to run like a 31I, because the 31I appears to be about twice as fast through block read as the OI. So an operation that will run 110 lines a second in the 31I runs about 50 lines per second in the OI when the OI is standard configured, which is a minority operation but these operations do sometimes happen. This could potentially result in a less profitable TT1800SY if run times blow up with the cheaper control. In the Puma's the look ahead could result in a more nimble Puma 2100SY II that can optimize dynamic milling operations for run time reductions.

    Other differences of the new OI TT1800SY II are that the machine now takes Puma 2100 SY II spindle liners, and coolant collectors, making it seem as though possibly the 2100 SY II spindle and actuator may have been employed in this machine. I think the 2100SY II spindle is a little slower, so hopefully it's just the hydraulic actuator.

  5. #5
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    Re: 15" OI TT1800SY

    Thursday they got the machine a ladder installed that would recognize a break on the upper path so Korea now has that developed. The Ellison application guy edited some timer parameters of the feature and got the lower recognizing a break. The odd part of that was the timers going up (more time) to get the breaks to be recognized. Korea was saying the larger the numbers the faster the time. These numbers differed from all the other OI and 31I Doosans on the floor which all have functional load monitoring.

    Also the Spindle load monitoring still does not work in the I series (OI) control TT1800SY. So spindle loads teach zeros and do not monitor. Korea said you don't want to be monitoring spindles. But we do monitor spindle loads on all the other Doosans OI's and 31I's on the floor. The only issue I have found is with the Lynx 220 LYSC which doesn't like spindle load monitoring with the main spindle over 3900RPM. Around 4000 it seems to start picking up momentary high loads that spike erroneously. Not an issue since 3900 is pretty much the fastest spindle load that won't hurt spindle accel and decel cycle times.

    We are still working to get spindle loads monitoring. We asked to buy AICC II for a Puma 2100 SY II we want to use as a test bed machine to figure out if MCS or MCS and AICC II is the key in realizing run time reductions for milling operations. Ellison hasn't got out yet to install MCS and AICC II look ahead for us to understand what feature or features of the control are required to see the control G05.1 respond to changes in parameters for accel-decell and different R values in code.

    We are also still interested in a code example for ignoring the basket eject on the single path lathe controls, and also in potential improvement to phase synced spindle accell and decell which is 6 seconds up and down to 3200RPM on transfers, where main and subs independently are about 1.5 seconds up and down for 3200RPM. It seems that this is probably parameter controlled and possible overly conservative.

  6. #6
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    Re: 15" OI TT1800SY

    The I series TT and Puma 15" control spindle load monitoring we are still trying to develop / hoping Ellison develops the solution to. I guess G96 isn't great with it is the reason Doosan dropped it off. We put the M201 / M200 pairs bracketed around feed moves only, so we don't monitor the diameter moves in rapid so that may be why we've had a decent time monitoring spindle loads.

    The AICC II and MCS was installed on one of our Puma 2100's today, and we were able to drop 41 seconds on a 134 second milling path by setting up the parameters and using G05.1 Q1 R3. The slowest R10 setting ran 132 seconds so it beat the factory AICC by two seconds with really excellent smoothness of motion. I feel like the average Doosan owner could pay for those features with their first 3 live tool rebuilds (30% of which wouldn't have happened on account of milling less time), or in floor time on perhaps their first job using the features. I would have saved 11 hours on a recent job using the function, and that would have paid out 1.5-2 times the cost of the control features.

    We also didn't figure out the spindle M214 P11 accellerating in 6 seconds issue, but we were given a work around by illinois Ellison Applications, and that was to re-write code like this:
    X-.018
    G00G28G53B0.
    M315 P11 (Main Spindle stop without confirmation)
    M05 P13 (subspindle stop - this confirms)
    M205 P11 (This cancels the phase sync)

    That cut the 6 seconds down, to about 1.5 seconds to drop the spindles for a run time savings of 4.5 seconds. We also learned our G96 cutoff was only getting to 2850 RPM, so rev limiting lower to G50 S2850 cut about 1.5 seconds of spindle up time, for a total savings of 7 seconds of part transfer time.

    We're going to attempt the basket eject while allowing the 2100 SY II to return to facing / roughing on the main spindle also to see what run time reduction we can get from that.

  7. #7
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    Re: 15" OI TT1800SY

    This method that works in the Puma 2100SY II doesn't work in the TT1800SY with the 31I control anyway.

    X-.018
    G00G28G53B0.
    M315 P11 (Main Spindle stop without confirmation)
    M05 P13 (subspindle stop - this confirms)
    M205 P11 (This cancels the phase sync)


    Also the command for part eject during face/rough on puma is :
    G100 B0. D0. M2
    M191

    If you put those two lines at the top of the program, it will eject during the first operation - this function calls a PMC function, like a nintendo game cheat code. It's not really a Fanuc option but rather a PMC function call.

    The M191 can be placed anywhere in the program you like the timing for the part basket deployment, sub chuck unclamp, and eject, basket retract, and conveyor operation.

    This also only works on the Puma 2100- it isn't applicable to the TT1800SY.

  8. #8
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    Re: 15" OI TT1800SY

    I'm so sorry you're having to go through this.
    I was never a big fan of the enhanced 0iT going in multi path lathes. Yeah, it "can" do it, but the 31i is way more powerful for processing and memory.

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    Re: 15" OI TT1800SY

    Quote Originally Posted by DouglasR View Post
    I'm so sorry you're having to go through this.
    I was never a big fan of the enhanced 0iT going in multi path lathes. Yeah, it "can" do it, but the 31i is way more powerful for processing and memory.
    They seem really close to resolution. Now we only need to accomplish two remaining things:
    Get the 15" I series Puma 2100 to kill the spindle and coolant when a load monitor break happens (so the operator doesn't keep seeing high pressure coolant and hearing motor noise which can make the operator think the machine is running).
    Get both 15" I series controls to load monitor spindles.

    I agree the 31I is a lot faster and a better control, but I have some hope that with AICCII and these simple issues worked out the I series will be able to compete. The AICC II makes the I series a little more competitive but it more like half closes the gap in performance. The AICC II by the way showed that huge improvement on a dynamic milling path G17 face milling the main spindle. When we ran the program currently in that machine it only made a 2 second difference (because the milling moves on that part were simple thread milling G12.1 and linear Y axis flats. So it's particularly challenging dynamic milled geometries with a few thousand lines of code that AICC II will save tremendous time on.

  10. #10
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    Re: 15" OI TT1800SY

    I'm happy to hear that you're nearing a resolution.

  11. #11
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    Re: 15" OI TT1800SY

    Quote Originally Posted by DouglasR View Post
    I'm happy to hear that you're nearing a resolution.
    I thought I was. We put a job in Thursday night and 1/2 the tools wouldn't teach in load monitoring. We've been tolerating the lack of spindle monitoring but 1/2 the tools not teaching means we're running with scissors treating it like a stable process and cutting 17-4 stainless steel that's not too smart. I have a badass TT1800SY from 2013 that has no issues on 31I with the new turret design and it's rolling jobs 24 hours a day this year five days a week, and we're hoping to sell it as it's kind of an optimal time to sell it. I would have to buy an I series TT1800SY to replace it. I need this problem to go away so that can be possible.

    We know we could roll the old machines another 7 years on similar repair cost to replacing them, but if there is something better for Ellison and Doosan we can do and somewhat helpful to us in mental security, we should do that. It's all symbiotic so we do what we can so they can help us when we need help. I believe in this case that's selling the used machines at my sales guy's recommended 7 years, and buying the new replacements.

    Resell CNC said they had interest on the old TT day one of the listing and our asking price is not a problem. We're thinking it would be ideal to close this now as 179 isn't guaranteed through the year and if it dropped it would make it economically stupid to sell the old machine.

    I also bought the AICC II and MCS for all the supportable turning machines on the floor. That hasn't been delivered yet because Fanuc has some paperwork process with Japan for people who work in our industry, but we're looking forward to it.

  12. #12
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    Re: 15" OI TT1800SY

    Sounds like you have your hands full.
    Quite frankly, the Tool Load was always finicky, and I was not really satisfied with it when I worked there. As to "why" the tools aren't teaching in, I don't know. I had the issue on a showroom machine with an 0iT some time ago as well.

    My advise is to stay on top of Ellison and Doosan. If they want another TT sale - and they DO - they'll make this work.

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    Re: 15" OI TT1800SY

    I hope you are right. I don't think the I series machine is worth the $13K price decrease so far because I think customers needed the load monitoring to work and the I series broke a working machine. Given they discontinued the 31I model, it would stand to reason that they have to figure out the TT1800SY II load monitoring, but I haven't heard anything in a while. Fanuc pisses me off with their cheap ****ty controls and stupid business model with the discounted options to the crappier controls, punishing customers for wanting good controls by making the vaporware software options cost more for 31I.

    Tsugami lost a sale on one of their full box way machines to us from Morris midwest over tool load monitoring. If we had bought that MS08Y, that would have cost Doosan 4 Puma 2100SY II machine sales because we would have just made them all MS08Y's to match. They couldn't get load monitoring on it because it was the smaller screen I series control that couldn't have the Fanuc option. They offered us some bazaar swiss turning tool load monitoring system involving kinematic force sensor installation and weird codes and we just wanted tool load like Doosan that worked in the GUI. We countered with a desire for Fanuc's option TLM, and it got killed by the lack of fanuc support for the small screen I series control. We paid $23,000 more for the first Puma 2100 SY II of the 4 we have bought to date.

    I understood their elaborate system was better, but it was simple uniformity we wanted, and their system required programming code support that was more complicated.

    Tool load monitoring is an issue that sells machines. Tsugami later had some CEO or high up leadership person from Japan un-invited to visit, and I had the employees tell him I was pre-occupied because we had no plans to do business with them after they couldn't support a machine with load monitoring in the GUI. It wasn't out of spite, we just had nothing to talk about because their dicks were limp and their tool load monitoring didn't exist.

    My sales guy at Morris Midwest got fired a couple months after that, and it probably had a lot to do with the reaction of the Japanese guy to his customer not even humoring his visit and to all the blue doosans that probably made him see red. It sucked I liked the Morris guy, and we wanted to buy something from them. His last offer to us was a LB3000 for a price beating a puma and we already had 3 pumas there was no point buying the better Okuma for a better price at that point. He's selling cars now. What a disaster. Tsugami should have had a better strategy with a control that could support load monitoring.

  14. #14
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    Re: 15" OI TT1800SY

    I guess Doosan Korea may be sending a factory technician out Monday for load monitoring work.

    Got the fanuc AICCII and MCS upgrades for the other turning machines. When we went to settup the G05.1 on a different operation we weren't as happy with the original settings on another identical Puma 2100 SY II machine running a different dynamic path. So we changed the tune a bit to a little more performance emphasis version. It broke the original operation we tested another 5 seconds, to 88 seconds from the original 134, for a 35% drop in process time on the control operation. When we went to the TT1800SY with the new I series 15" control, we ran the same operation 3 seconds faster than that in 85 seconds. That tool really likes point to point dynamic style code especially if the moves are small.

    The G05.1 Q0 needs to be put everywhere you aren't milling though or you will lose time on turning operations at that point. Our first program to run with the AICC II only dropped 4 seconds, because the dynamic milling wasn't as crazy, but that was only on a 32 second operation, so it was 12.5% time savings on that operation it used. That operation was posting arcs. I've been told Arcs are not as good for AICCII, so probably if the roughing is posted in point to point code that is better for time saving- so for example you would want to post it using mastercam smoothing settings potentially to get the most time savings.

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    Re: 15" OI TT1800SY

    Had the real pleasure of working with a master yesterday and this morning. Doosan USA New Jersey sent an electrical engineer who designed the electrical system for the Puma 2100 SY II turning center [of which we have 4 examples] (I'm assuming in Korea, as he was a South Korean citizen). The guy had 11 years of training before going to work where Fanuc USA I believe puts some application people straight to calls. It took him 90 minutes to solve the TT1800SY load monitoring problems that had not been resolved in 2 months. We were happy to pay Ellison the install final payment today.

    He was popping into Fanuc diagnostic screens and watching functions execute, and writing ladder at the speed of code writing in a Hollywood movie. The guy was basically wielding a magic wand and making impossible **** happen by the minute.

    He got us M315 spindle stop without confirmation on all 4 spindles and M214 synchronous cutoff in the TT1800SY II, and also M315 spindle stop for all 3 spindles in the Puma 2100 SY II's. That saved 3-7.5% of production run time on the various turning machines we applied it to. That sounds small but on a TT1800SY running a 2:21 part, that cut the run time to 2:11, and that's 37 hours a month on the one TT1800SY on 24 hour shifts 5 days a week. M315 P11 for killing M214 synchronous on cutoff kills 3 seconds on every part run on the TT1800SY II alone. For us that's big help against the incredible production volume demand that has our guys working up to 63 hours a week right now.

    Also, he flipped 2 bell curve numbers in our AICC II tune on the Puma 2100SY II's and got us 4 seconds faster on G05.1 Q1 R1 (1:25 of our 1:29 original pre AICC II/MCS 2:15 run operation). This par timed the TT1800SY II with AICC II / MCS on the control operation, and opened R10 to 1:50 essentially giving us more control with MCS settings.

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    Re: 15" OI TT1800SY

    We ran into some lingering issues on the next job we ran. Korea apparently began developing a new load monitoring software for the I series control in Korea. We also sold our 2013 TT1800SY and purchased a new TT1800SY II as part of a deal we were committed to to show Ellison we're trying to make it worth the effort to get it right.

    I guess they are going to fly the tech back out when the new machine is delivered. We also bought a DVF-5000 5 axis that is getting installed when that machine is installed.

    We bought a new Iscar parting system the Tang F grip holder with Tag HF insert for additional time saving optimization and it didn't quite work out great. In 17-4 you can part at .014 per rev, but the stability is pretty low. It challenges tool load monitoring to catch it failing.

    We just got in a new insert The Tag N3C in IC808 and that insert has a wider feed range of .004 to .01, compared to HF's .01to .014" so we are running that off at .009 down to .21 and .006 through the part in 17-4 and it cuts quiet. The chip former doesn't roll clocksprings but it looks promising.

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    Re: 15" OI TT1800SY

    We traded a TT1800SY for a second new one with the 15" screen as part of our commitment to try to help Doosan with the costs of figuring this out and working the bugs out of the new control machine. That wasn't requested by Doosan but we wanted to help. They had been working on a new version of the TLM software in Korea, and our new machine did not arrive with that software, but they flew the engineer out from the east coast again, and he brought the software from Korea and installed it. It still had a few bugs and we ran parts to test the software with him for 3 days. He was here till 11PM two days, and all the bugs were worked out. That was then duplicated on the other machine (the original problem machine), so both the 15" I series control TT1800SY's are running good now. My lead turning guy liked the way it was running so much he wanted to get it the same on our 31I machine from 2018 and that wasn't possible obviously different controls different software.

    That TLM version is going to be experimented with in Korea and should eventually become the OEM version shipped with this model machine. This wasn't like the last time where we were teaching 60% of tools on one run and then 1 tool and then two tools, after specific work in the ladder to obtain those. This time the software snapped in and loaded all tools on one teach function, which was the correct and desirable way for it to work. We tested moving tools around to different turret stations and that worked also. (Simulating another job settup, as time constraints don't allow for the actual settup of another totally different job).

    So two machines, two different programs, some curveballs thrown it was running and I think it's fixed. We also got look ahead into the new machine.

    We appreciate Doosan working with us to make it right.

    Oh on the Iscar parting insert we aren't happy with the stability of the Tag N3HF IC808 insert running 6 minutes life at 330SFM G50 S3100 .012rev dropping to .01 below .250 in 17-4. The HF would save 30 minutes run time per insert but occasionally put a machine down for a shift at night after losing the holder. We had a successful run on Tag N3C's IC808 running 12 minutes life 330SFM G50 S3100 .008rev dropping to .004 below .250 in 17-4. The C saves 15 and appears to be process stable, albeit less tested time than the HF here.

    We are going to be working on seeing if we can use the Tag N3CB insert IC808 to 10 minutes of life running 330SFM G50 S3100 .010rev dropping to .005 below .250 in 17-4.the CB should do something in the middle. We're hoping for to save 18 minutes or something per insert with the N3CB, and still be process stable.

    I'm only listing the rev limiter high like that because it seemed suicidal to run the HF below G50 S3100, we could not get an insert through life without taking the holder below G50S3100. Losing holders at like 1 minute with the HF at G50 S2850

  18. #18
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    Re: 15" OI TT1800SY

    I guess we only have one further noticed issue- the backup softkey is not available in the new software- so you can't save the tool load monitor data with the job right now. This is a bug. But not as bad as the software not working at all.

  19. #19
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    Re: 15" OI TT1800SY

    Softkeys are entirely programming.
    Just let them know about the issue; I'm certain they will rectify it...
    Doosan Service Technician
    darryl.hardt@doosanmt.com O:973-618-2461 M:973-803-9479

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    Re: 15" OI TT1800SY

    They are still experiencing issues, I guess now the new date is March for another release of Tool Load Monitoring. We once did something similar with Yama Seiki on a 31I machine, and we developed Tool Load monitoring with them in about 7.5 months. We're near to exceeding that with Doosan now. These Fanuc 15" I series controls probably just suck and that's probably why it's being such a challenge for Doosan. It's like the $11,000 people are saving on the machine that might cost $70,000 or more to each customer.

    We lost 4 hours today. We had to drop monitoring on a tool to get the machine running in the end. It's been a lot of lost time on this issue. First months on that first machine, and then 3-6 hours on every job since about then on two machines.

    I wonder if it's Doosan, or if Fanuc just screwed up the 15" I series controls and God Himself couldn't fix tool load Monitoring without modifying the hardware? Maybe the hardware just can't do what a 31I had proven it could.

    It really doesn't make sense to change a good thing. The 31I TT1800SY was a good thing.

    One of the things the factory guy said when he was here, was that the control doesn't have a second CPU when someone asked him why Okuma worked so well, and this wasn't working out. He suggested the Americans are too cheap to pay for the second CPU. Does the 31I have a second CPU?

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