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IndustryArena Forum > MetalWorking Machines > Fadal > 4020 stops during tool change
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  1. #1
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    4020 stops during tool change

    Hey everyone,

    New to me machine, was in production 2 weeks ago. It errors out at approx Z1.8 every time. I'm doing all of this without tools in the spindle or carousel

    Things I've checked:
    -Manual tool change with tool in/out button works
    -Full Z travel (+4 to -16)
    -Verified axis is still in inches with tool setter
    -Followed the ATC toolchange flow chart in the maintenance manual. Everything checks out besides I cannot find the prox switch to check manually.
    --page 44: https://flintmachine.com/images/uplo...leshooting.pdf
    -The value for Drawbaw in DI-DS goes to 1 after I release the tool in/out button but is otherwise 0.
    -No atc fault, verified bit on DI-DS works by hand
    -both ATC limit switches work via DI-DS
    -Turned the 'feedback' option off in SETP with no change, put it back
    -Spindle orient works
    -cold start location is good. (about 0.3" between carousel and spindle)
    -air pressure is good. I have it set at 100 but tried at 120 with no change
    -fuses are good. Swapped k24 relay with a different one
    Ran setZ, setX, and setY commands at CS location

    I took a video of it happening:
    https://youtu.be/BpeCfjx84Do

    Any ideas?!?

    Thanks!

  2. #2
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    Re: 4020 stops during tool change

    Crazy question, when you powered up, did you jog each axis to their alignment mark and press CS?
    If not, then the Z axis doesn't know where it really is.

    Edited: Sorry, I see you said you already checked the cold start positions.

  3. #3
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    Re: 4020 stops during tool change

    Thanks for the reply. Yep, CS is good (at least within reason). I just tried TC,1 with the same result. Only generic info on the MU messages screen.

    The thing is, I've seen this machine do tool changes at its last location. Something happened between their shop and mine. It would make more sense if I couldn't jog that high but it'll go to the top just fine, only during tool change does it have a problem.

  4. #4
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    Re: 4020 stops during tool change

    Quote Originally Posted by travisn View Post
    Only generic info on the MU messages screen.

    The thing is, I've seen this machine do tool changes at its last location. Something happened between their shop and mine. It would make more sense if I couldn't jog that high but it'll go to the top just fine, only during tool change does it have a problem.
    ...check Input Voltage/Transformer taps for correct voltage output wiring for your shop input power?
    ...if, 3 phase powered is the Phasing correct.?

    Is your TC a Servo or Geneva type? may help further troubleshooting

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by machinehop5 View Post
    ...check Input Voltage/Transformer taps for correct voltage output wiring for your shop input power?
    ...if, 3 phase powered is the Phasing correct.?

    Is your TC a Servo or Geneva type? may help further troubleshooting
    Running on single phase via t-813 transformer. Voltages are in spec. It's a Geneva TC. I've jogged all axis to their full travel and had the spindle to 10k, no issues there either.

  6. #6
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    Re: 4020 stops during tool change

    The only time I've seen this is when the CS position was off so if the CS was done properly then I have no idea.
    Are the travels correct? In other words, if you jog the Z 1 " on the display, does it actually move 1 inch?

    I remember when mine was powered down during it's move to the new home, it lost the SetP settings and the screw Metric/Standard was wrong and it also traveled too far. It would not jog on to the proper extents of each axis either because it didn't know where it really was. It sounds like you already checked all that.

    Quote Originally Posted by travisn View Post
    Thanks for the reply. Yep, CS is good (at least within reason). I just tried TC,1 with the same result. Only generic info on the MU messages screen.

    The thing is, I've seen this machine do tool changes at its last location. Something happened between their shop and mine. It would make more sense if I couldn't jog that high but it'll go to the top just fine, only during tool change does it have a problem.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by rwskinner View Post
    The only time I've seen this is when the CS position was off so if the CS was done properly then I have no idea.
    Are the travels correct? In other words, if you jog the Z 1 " on the display, does it actually move 1 inch?

    I remember when mine was powered down during it's move to the new home, it lost the SetP settings and the screw Metric/Standard was wrong and it also traveled too far. It would not jog on to the proper extents of each axis either because it didn't know where it really was. It sounds like you already checked all that.
    Yep, I've been searching a lot and trying everything I've found. I even tried moving CS down as far as it'll go without crashing into the tool changer plate.

    The first job is a 3 min cycle time with 4 tool changes. I guess I'll have to commit to the fixture plate so I can run a bunch at a time then change tools by hand.

  8. #8
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    Re: 4020 stops during tool change

    Quote Originally Posted by travisn View Post
    Yep, I've been searching a lot and trying everything I've found. I even tried moving CS down as far as it'll go without crashing into the tool changer plate.

    The first job is a 3 min cycle time with 4 tool changes. I guess I'll have to commit to the fixture plate so I can run a bunch at a time then change tools by hand.
    ...has the Turret Pocket been homed? use SETTO, or use SETTO,#
    https://www.fadalcnc.com/media/pdf/Fadal%20Commands.pdf

    ...have u tried slowing down the Rapid Override?

  9. #9
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    Re: 4020 stops during tool change

    I'll try that, thanks. The turret seems to be working as I expect.

    Rapid has been at 25% this whole time.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I'll try that, thanks. The turret seems to be working as I expect.

    Rapid has been at 25% this whole time.

  10. #10
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    Re: 4020 stops during tool change

    ...here is a long shot....

    ...possible due to Air hose Operperators...steel chips have invaded the magnet(s).
    https://itscnc.com/magnet-hall-effect-polarized.html
    item 15
    https://www.fadalcnc.com/media/pdf/t...s/VMC_4020.pdf

  11. #11
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    Re: 4020 stops during tool change

    Quote Originally Posted by machinehop5 View Post
    ...here is a long shot....

    ...possible due to Air hose Operperators...steel chips have invaded the magnet(s).
    https://itscnc.com/magnet-hall-effect-polarized.html
    item 15
    https://www.fadalcnc.com/media/pdf/t...s/VMC_4020.pdf
    I agree it's probably a chip someplace. Which drawing are you talking about? There are a bunch of assemblies and each one has a #15.

  12. #12
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    Re: 4020 stops during tool change

    Also, setto didn't do anything.

  13. #13
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    Re: 4020 stops during tool change

    Quote Originally Posted by travisn View Post
    I agree it's probably a chip someplace. Which drawing are you talking about? There are a bunch of assemblies and each one has a #15.
    ..Page 16 "ATC Geneva Drive Assem.
    https://www.fadalcnc.com/media/pdf/t...s/VMC_4020.pdf

  14. #14
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    Re: 4020 stops during tool change

    I cleaned both of those along with the bar that triggers them. I can also see both bits change on the di-ds screen.

  15. #15
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    Re: 4020 stops during tool change

    ...it is odd that no Error Message other than E-Stop is being displayed. So, I would assume something with the TC is the causing the E-Stop. If, it were the Z Axis system should say something like Servo error, or following error,etc.

  16. #16
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    Re: 4020 stops during tool change

    I really don't think it's the TC as it comes over fine, it's when the Z axis starts moving is when the error happens. Also, the sensor on the TC spindle for vertical crash detection works properly.

  17. #17
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    Re: 4020 stops during tool change

    What happens if you don't use the tool changer at all and do a G53 G01 Z3.0 ? This should take it to it's max height just like when doing a tool change, when it lifts up off the tool. Fadal doesn't have limit switches. They use software limits, that is why CS is so important and by looking at your spindle position, the CS does look fairly close.

    I watched your video several more times. Hard to see your screen. I see Z only goes up above CS by 1.700" or so when it errors out. That's no where near the mechanical end of travel and it it did hit a mechanical stop, it would be an Axis Overload error. If it goes past a software stop, it will show emergency stop. If jogging, you hit a software stop, it just stops with no error, but GCode or MDI will produce an emergency stop.

    Did you mess with any of the parameter settings in SetP? Have you verified them. They make 4020's with two different Z travels but I don't think that would be it. I think when mine had screwed up settings from dead battery, it CS'd fine, just wouldn't go all the way down to the table. It would stop 6" or so higher.

    After it does emergency stop, if you just clear it, can you continue to manually jog higher? I think you stated you could, I just can't see the messages right now.

  18. #18
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    Re: 4020 stops during tool change

    G53 g01 z3.0 worked fine
    after resetting the e-stop during a tool change I can jog up past where it stopped.
    I didn't mess with any Setp parameters, any I should check specifically?


    I have a command menu quick reference print out and on there is a reinitialize, that didn't help either.

  19. #19
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    Re: 4020 stops during tool change

    Okay, that just eliminated an entire list of things. So Gcode will move it up 3 inches above CS and there is no binding, and no loose of position. That's great.
    So now, it's time to focus on tool changer sensors and drawbar sensor. I never paid attention, but you do have plenty of air pressure hooked up right?

    I'm not where I can look right now, but you want to looks at Diags and go in where you can see all the sensor inputs to make sure they are working right. Go to a thread call Drawbar cuylinder switch I believe here in the Fadal forum and I have to procedure to do that and list the inputs. Make sure your drawbar and tool changer sensors are working. Also, if you use the keypad, can you make the tool changer move from tool to tool Rotate to different pockets okay?

  20. #20
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    I've had it at 100 psi but tried it at 120 (input, regulated to 85 on the machine regulator)

    On the di-ds screen I can see both atc 'limit' switches, the atc over limit switch (atc fault) (it is centered in the groove, not pre-loaded), the drawbar switch is zero until I release the tool in/out button then it blips to 1 for a second.

    Is the actual code available that I could read through? Then I'd know what sensors it's looking for.

    Turret cw and ccw work, when I ask for a tool change the carousel rotates by itself to the right pocket.

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