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IndustryArena Forum > CNC Electronics > Spindles / VFD > Another VFD wiring question
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  1. #1
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    Another VFD wiring question

    Have a 4'x4'x 6.5"Z router. Generic DIY build with aluminum extrusion, steppers. All works well. Have 2.2KW water cooled spindle and VFD. Just baffled by the almost completely confusing wiring info out there between Mach3, BOB and VFD.

    Spindle works fine from VFD front panel. Router runs great and homes all axis' fine (gantry is slave Y&A). I can set up and run Gcode fine using the spindle manually.

    I have three different breakout boards. One has no relay (currently installed), one has a single relay and says V3 on the board and is 5 axis, the other has 3 relays and says Bv2 on the board.

    I think I understand the basic four wire setup with FOR triggering turn on of the spindle, don't need reverse; and VI for 0-10V D-A and the commons. What I don't understand is the specs for and the powering and using of the relay on the board.

    Is there some sort of gold standard for the wiring between the BOB with relay which I would like to go to and the standard Ebay VFD?

    Some things I have read say use 24v input power to the BOB and then ouput at the relay which I don't understand. Also the 3 relay BOB I have has a PWM pin as well as a 0-10V pin meaning it may output PWM directly for spindle speed control. Seems that would be cleaner than D-A conversion if that's true.

    Any help would be appreciated. I can wire and have built machines from scratch but this is just a puzzle. Wish I could just find a wiring diagram and MACH3 setup for the parts I have.

    jfk in central VT

  2. #2
    Community Moderator ger21's Avatar
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    Re: Another VFD wiring question

    The relay is simple.

    FOR and DCM on the VFD to the NO and COM terminals on the relay. The wires can go to either terminal on the breakout board.

    Some of the cheap 5 axis boards just have two terminals for the relay labeled on/off. It doesn't matter which wires from the VFD go to which terminals.

    I doubt that your VFD can accept PWM control directly.
    Gerry

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  3. #3
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    Re: Another VFD wiring question

    Quote Originally Posted by jkempf View Post
    Have a 4'x4'x 6.5"Z router. Generic DIY build with aluminum extrusion, steppers. All works well. Have 2.2KW water cooled spindle and VFD. Just baffled by the almost completely confusing wiring info out there between Mach3, BOB and VFD.

    Spindle works fine from VFD front panel. Router runs great and homes all axis' fine (gantry is slave Y&A). I can set up and run Gcode fine using the spindle manually.

    I have three different breakout boards. One has no relay (currently installed), one has a single relay and says V3 on the board and is 5 axis, the other has 3 relays and says Bv2 on the board.

    I think I understand the basic four wire setup with FOR triggering turn on of the spindle, don't need reverse; and VI for 0-10V D-A and the commons. What I don't understand is the specs for and the powering and using of the relay on the board.

    Is there some sort of gold standard for the wiring between the BOB with relay which I would like to go to and the standard Ebay VFD?

    Some things I have read say use 24v input power to the BOB and then ouput at the relay which I don't understand. Also the 3 relay BOB I have has a PWM pin as well as a 0-10V pin meaning it may output PWM directly for spindle speed control. Seems that would be cleaner than D-A conversion if that's true.

    Any help would be appreciated. I can wire and have built machines from scratch but this is just a puzzle. Wish I could just find a wiring diagram and MACH3 setup for the parts I have.

    jfk in central VT
    If the Breakout Board needs 24v then that is what you would use, most are multi-voltage and 12v would be all you need, for the PWM control 0-10v if you post a photo of what Breakout Boards you have would be better to see what you need to do

    0-10v is what you would be using for the speed control VI and ACM connection VI is the 0-10v connection ACM is the Ground connection this also needs to be setup in your control ( 1 ) of the settings in Mach3 is the PWM set this to 100 is a good starting point

    The relay is turned On/Off by one of your outputs this relay's output switch is connected to FOR and DCM so you can setup the spindle control and output pins in your control to make this relay work
    Mactec54

  4. #4
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    Re: Another VFD wiring question

    Here are the two breakout boards I have to swap in to get the relay to control the spindle. The three relay one has a separate 15-32v input. The single relay one doesn't.

  5. #5
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    Re: Another VFD wiring question

    I believe my question is whether the relay is a dry switch or is it powered internally from the breakout board? In other words do I have to provide input power somewhere to provide power for the relay to turn on and off? The relays are marked with both 5v and then various combinations of amperage and voltage ratings both ac and dc. But they have no schematic other than pin labels no nc and common. Does that mean that the screw pins on the board are only the output side of the relay? Do I have to provide input power to power the 0-10v output or is that internally powered from the board. I believe my current board only has 5v input from a usb cable. Just trying to understand and visualize the circuitry I am dealing with.

  6. #6
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    Re: Another VFD wiring question

    Quote Originally Posted by jkempf View Post
    I believe my question is whether the relay is a dry switch or is it powered internally from the breakout board? In other words do I have to provide input power somewhere to provide power for the relay to turn on and off? The relays are marked with both 5v and then various combinations of amperage and voltage ratings both ac and dc. But they have no schematic other than pin labels no nc and common. Does that mean that the screw pins on the board are only the output side of the relay? Do I have to provide input power to power the 0-10v output or is that internally powered from the board. I believe my current board only has 5v input from a usb cable. Just trying to understand and visualize the circuitry I am dealing with.
    The output from the Rely works just as a switch would so no power connection for the switching of the VFD Drive On/Off but you will have a 5v Signal going to the input of the Relay to turn it On/Off
    So the output of the Relay is Dry in your terms to test this you can just use a jumper from FOR to DCM and the spindle will turn ON once you set the correct Parameters for remote control but this is not to be used for normal running as it is not safe and you have no control of On/Off of the spindle

    Both Breakout would have to have a Voltage supply for the PWM 0-10v output and as I said 12v is the minimum supply for this

    You will find the single Relay Breakout Board does require 12v to 24v I have some of the same Breakout Boards
    Mactec54

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    Re: Another VFD wiring question

    Self Necro posting here.

    Due to a spindle upgrade I am back up against the wall of setting up a spindle with a VFD. The VFD spindle were an ebay combo. Seems nice enough quality. I have installed yet another breakout board with three relays and 6 usable axis'. Regardless Had all axis on the machine working with the new breakout board and calibrated, homing, limits, etc... Got back to doing Mach control of the spindle and couldn't come up with a combo of settings, ports, pins, wiring that would give me control of spindle on/off speed.

    BOB is this one: https://www.automationtechnologiesin...face-breakout/

    Spindle and VFD this one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-2KW-VFD-K...sAAOSwY4NerCCe

    All is working, I have 36V going to the relay section of the BOB, 5V via USB and the parallel port connector. Have 4 axis hooked up with Pulse and Direction to 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 for 3 axis plus A slave for gantry.

    Have the 0-10V output from the BOB hooked up to the 10v input on the VFD, have the P2 relay hooked up to the FOR on the VFD, common grounds for all, The VFD flashes 00002 before I fire up Mach3 but the spindle won't run. When I turn off the computer the spindle starts and runs until the VFD cuts out when I cut power to it.

    It has to be ports, pins, spindle settings in Mach3. Or I have a fundamental misunderstanding of ports, pins assigned to relay and 0-10V spindle setup, or all of the above. I feel like I am so close.

    There are so many combos of VFD and boards I can't find the combo I am working with but it has to be similar to all.

    A walk through of something like go to here in Mach assign this to this port, pin, then point this at it and check this box run through would be appreciated. If it has already been done point to a thread where I can follow along.

    Thanks in advance.

  8. #8
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    Re: Another VFD wiring question

    Quote Originally Posted by jkempf View Post
    Self Necro posting here.

    Due to a spindle upgrade I am back up against the wall of setting up a spindle with a VFD. The VFD spindle were an ebay combo. Seems nice enough quality. I have installed yet another breakout board with three relays and 6 usable axis'. Regardless Had all axis on the machine working with the new breakout board and calibrated, homing, limits, etc... Got back to doing Mach control of the spindle and couldn't come up with a combo of settings, ports, pins, wiring that would give me control of spindle on/off speed.

    BOB is this one: https://www.automationtechnologiesin...face-breakout/

    Spindle and VFD this one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-2KW-VFD-K...sAAOSwY4NerCCe

    All is working, I have 36V going to the relay section of the BOB, 5V via USB and the parallel port connector. Have 4 axis hooked up with Pulse and Direction to 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9 for 3 axis plus A slave for gantry.

    Have the 0-10V output from the BOB hooked up to the 10v input on the VFD, have the P2 relay hooked up to the FOR on the VFD, common grounds for all, The VFD flashes 00002 before I fire up Mach3 but the spindle won't run. When I turn off the computer the spindle starts and runs until the VFD cuts out when I cut power to it.

    It has to be ports, pins, spindle settings in Mach3. Or I have a fundamental misunderstanding of ports, pins assigned to relay and 0-10V spindle setup, or all of the above. I feel like I am so close.

    There are so many combos of VFD and boards I can't find the combo I am working with but it has to be similar to all.

    A walk through of something like go to here in Mach assign this to this port, pin, then point this at it and check this box run through would be appreciated. If it has already been done point to a thread where I can follow along.

    Thanks in advance.
    Looks to be quite confusing as to what you have done

    The 0-10v should not be connected to the 10v on the VFD Drive

    There should not be any voltage at the relay outputs so if you have 36v it will fry the VFD Drive inputs, if you have this kind of voltage going out from the Breakout Board

    Do you have a PDF manual for the VFD Drive that you can post
    Mactec54

  9. #9
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    Re: Another VFD wiring question

    The BOB I have has input voltage pins labelled 12-52V. I brought each function of the board back one at a time. X Step and pulse Y Z A. This was using only the USB +5v input without the higher voltage PS attached. I got all my limit switches working, estop, all the normal stuff, all good. There is a blue light that verifies that you have connected +5v. Then I connected one of my motor power supplies which runs right on 36v to the spindle and relay control section on the board. There is a blue light that verifies that you have connected power to that section of the board. I didn't measure output. There is a pin for 0-10v output for spindle speed. The manual says don't use pin1 PWM AND the 0-10v output for spindle control but only one of the two choices. Read up a bunch on connecting this board that way and seems that many are doing so. Spindle runs manually just fine off VFD. Nothing seems fried. I hooked up grounds to the GND pin on the VFD like the manual.

    I hooked up one of the relays to the Forward pin on the VFD per the manual and wiring diagrams of similar setups.

    I guess I can try to verify that I am getting any sort of 0-10v varying signal today out of the 0-10v pin.

    It may very well be that I don't have Mach3 set up properly. The VFD flashed 000002 when I had mach running trying to get control. When I shut down the computer instead of the spindle closing down it started to run until I cut the 220v to the vfd. So that seems completely backwards. But the spindle ran when the computer signal was taken away. Confirmation of Active low or high?

    What I am really fishing for is what is the relationship between ports and pins in the spindle setup portion of mach3. You put a port number in when enabling spindle. You put a pin number in. What do those mean and how can I test to find out how and what to put in there. BOB does not have a pin number for spindle stuff or I can't find it. There are some pins on the BOB that the manual says are used for more than one function possibly overlapping relay function. Totally confusing in the chinese instructions.

  10. #10
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    Re: Another VFD wiring question

    Oh and one last thing the VFD has three input terminals for speed control (frequency) input. 0-10V, 0-5V, and I think 0-200ma I think. The manual is pretty clear that those are all speed input ports.

    It is not a 10v input pin if that was confusing. So from what I can tell the relay switching the Forward pin is the enable and one of the speed input is direction and frequency in one. I'll try to figure out how to hook up reverse later.

    Or I have this completely wrong. I'm a pretty good hook up guy but circuit design and reverse engineering is not my thing. I'm a mechanical guy mostly.

  11. #11
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    Re: Another VFD wiring question

    Quote Originally Posted by jkempf View Post
    Oh and one last thing the VFD has three input terminals for speed control (frequency) input. 0-10V, 0-5V, and I think 0-200ma I think. The manual is pretty clear that those are all speed input ports.

    It is not a 10v input pin if that was confusing. So from what I can tell the relay switching the Forward pin is the enable and one of the speed input is direction and frequency in one. I'll try to figure out how to hook up reverse later.

    Or I have this completely wrong. I'm a pretty good hook up guy but circuit design and reverse engineering is not my thing. I'm a mechanical guy mostly.
    As I said this is what you posted ( Have the 0-10V output from the BOB hooked up to the 10v input on the VFD ) this is incorrect and should not be wired this way

    You won't know if you have damaged anything when running in manual mode this has nothing to do with the remote control hopefully there is no damage sometimes people get lucky

    Post a clear photo of the VFD Terminals

    The best way for the relays is to see if they are turning On / Off before you connect it to the VFD Drive this is easy to check with a meter

    I think you are mistaken with the relays needing a voltage source they are normally activated by the 5v on board signal voltage
    Mactec54

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    Re: Another VFD wiring question

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    As I said this is what you posted ( Have the 0-10V output from the BOB hooked up to the 10v input on the VFD ) this is incorrect and should not be wired this way

    You won't know if you have damaged anything when running in manual mode this has nothing to do with the remote control hopefully there is no damage sometimes people get lucky

    Post a clear photo of the VFD Terminals

    The best way for the relays is to see if they are turning On / Off before you connect it to the VFD Drive this is easy to check with a meter
    I can get the relay to latch on the BOB and get the spindle to run sort of but I don't understand the settings, ports and pins, no speed control certainly and not turning on and off properly. Tried a lot of port and pin combos in Mach3 with varying results. The BOB clearly states that it outputs a 0-10v analog signal but I can't measure it doing that.

    The VFD terminals are this...

    Attachment 448494

    Bob is this...

    Attachment 448496

  13. #13
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    Re: Another VFD wiring question

    Quote Originally Posted by jkempf View Post
    I can get the relay to latch on the BOB and get the spindle to run sort of but I don't understand the settings, ports and pins, no speed control certainly and not turning on and off properly. Tried a lot of port and pin combos in Mach3 with varying results. The BOB clearly states that it outputs a 0-10v analog signal but I can't measure it doing that.

    The VFD terminals are this...

    Attachment 448494

    Bob is this...

    Attachment 448496
    If you can't measure any 0-10v output then it is either a bad board or you have something in the settings to get that part working it should change the voltage, in Mach3 use MDI and enter this M3S12,000 should be around 5v

    You brought a really bad VFD Drive that is not what a normal terminal connections should look like

    There are Jumpers on the Breakout Board that relate to the relays also

    Parameters for your spindle have to be set correct as well, or it will fail to run correctly without a manual I can give you what you need to set
    Mactec54

  14. #14
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    Re: Another VFD wiring question

    Quote Originally Posted by jkempf View Post
    I can get the relay to latch on the BOB and get the spindle to run sort of but I don't understand the settings, ports and pins, no speed control certainly and not turning on and off properly. Tried a lot of port and pin combos in Mach3 with varying results. The BOB clearly states that it outputs a 0-10v analog signal but I can't measure it doing that.

    The VFD terminals are this...

    Attachment 448494

    Bob is this...

    Attachment 448496
    Are so I figured out what VFD Drive you have it is an Isacon I have a manual for that I will take a look
    Mactec54

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    Re: Another VFD wiring question

    I don't think it's a "bad" vfd. Actually I bought a nice ER20 2.2KW spindle and that was the 2.2KW VFD that was in the bundle. VFD is labeled A2 Series. It seems to have all the same functionality of the others comparable VFDs

    Automation Tech has the following pdf for suggested use of this board with a wiring diagram and some mach 3 port and pin info but no combination of this stuff seems to work.

    http://www.automationtechnologiesinc...ng-Diagram.pdf

    Yes jumpers for the relays. All relays tested working. Very confused as to ports and pins in Mach3 to pass the signal to the correct input and output on the BOB. I think my problem is assigning port and pin numbers and setting up spindle as VFD or Step and Dir or a combination to get all the signals to go where they are supposed to.

  16. #16
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    Re: Another VFD wiring question

    Quote Originally Posted by jkempf View Post
    I don't think it's a "bad" vfd. Actually I bought a nice ER20 2.2KW spindle and that was the 2.2KW VFD that was in the bundle. VFD is labeled A2 Series. It seems to have all the same functionality of the others comparable VFDs

    Automation Tech has the following pdf for suggested use of this board with a wiring diagram and some mach 3 port and pin info but no combination of this stuff seems to work.

    http://www.automationtechnologiesinc...ng-Diagram.pdf

    Yes jumpers for the relays. All relays tested working. Very confused as to ports and pins in Mach3 to pass the signal to the correct input and output on the BOB. I think my problem is assigning port and pin numbers and setting up spindle as VFD or Step and Dir or a combination to get all the signals to go where they are supposed to.
    Yes I looked at that before wiring diagram before

    With all you have running with that Breakout Board you would not have enough Pins to assign to all the output when using PP

    The VFD Drive is an Isacon which has been rebranded or copied to use the VEVOR name, a poor choice of drive, most use the Huanyang for around the same price much better drive in that price range

    If a Relay is working when you turn the spindle on in Mach3 then that part of it is working you only need ( 1 ) Relay these spindles are not recommended to run in both directions not sure why you needed ( 3 Relays ) you most likely don't have enough outputs to support everything

    So if you have the Relay working with Mach3 then it is just some Parameters to set in the Drive to make it work with that connection

    You can't use Step / Dir with that VFD Drive only PWM in Mach3
    Mactec54

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    Re: Another VFD wiring question

    Which is what I have been saying... I don't know how to set up Mach3 to pass the signals I need through the BOB to trigger the output I need to drive the VFD. Ports and pins. If it was well documented I wouldn't be here asking for clarification. The rest is just wiring. Wiring takes seconds to change. Three to four wires.

    The VFD can drive the spindle. Why do you say it is inferior or fried. The wiring is all within the BOB and VFD manufacturer's specs. It has all the same I/O as HY. Just because you don't have experience with it doesn't mean it isn't perfectly capable of providing the I/O I need.

    I have six axis' worth of output pins and I am using 4. I am not out of output. What difference does it make if I have 1 or 3 relays worth of pins? This BOB is quite well regarded and capable and seems to be working fine. I have reasons for more output in the future as I evolve my business. Worth pursuing. I might need to trigger vacuum or compressor on spindle start.

    In the end I will figure this out as I always do. It thought I was working with known hardware and software. I guess I am off in the corner of the box. No big deal. I live there. One output pin at a time with a multi-meter and it will work out.

    Thanks for your help.

  18. #18
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    Re: Another VFD wiring question

    Quote Originally Posted by jkempf View Post
    Which is what I have been saying... I don't know how to set up Mach3 to pass the signals I need through the BOB to trigger the output I need to drive the VFD. Ports and pins. If it was well documented I wouldn't be here asking for clarification. The rest is just wiring. Wiring takes seconds to change. Three to four wires.

    The VFD can drive the spindle. Why do you say it is inferior or fried. The wiring is all within the BOB and VFD manufacturer's specs. It has all the same I/O as HY. Just because you don't have experience with it doesn't mean it isn't perfectly capable of providing the I/O I need.

    I have six axis' worth of output pins and I am using 4. I am not out of output. What difference does it make if I have 1 or 3 relays worth of pins? This BOB is quite well regarded and capable and seems to be working fine. I have reasons for more output in the future as I evolve my business. Worth pursuing. I might need to trigger vacuum or compressor on spindle start.

    In the end I will figure this out as I always do. It thought I was working with known hardware and software. I guess I am off in the corner of the box. No big deal. I live there. One output pin at a time with a multi-meter and it will work out.

    Thanks for your help.
    If you where to use a Vacuum system it would have to turn on long before the spindle did, you would not normally have a compressor related to your CNC Control and none of the Relays your board has could turn on the compressor or Vacuum by just connecting it to these Relays, unless the Amps where very low which for these to item are normally quite high amps are required

    No you don't have 6 useable Axis with all these extra Relays Etc, the Parallel Port can not support that much that is why they have Boards like the Smooth Stepper Etc.

    I do have experience with this VFD Drive under it real name and more than 60 other VFD Drives which I have all the Parameters sets for the different spindles

    You said you had the Relays working so what is the problem then if they are not working then it is easy to work your way through one step at a time, think of it as flowing water all the valves have to be open for the water to flow though the system, or ask the supplier of the Breakout board for help if it is a good Board then there should be plenty of information on how to get it working with Mach3 I most likely have it but have been to busy to look
    Mactec54

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