550,246 active members*
2,787 visitors online*
Register for free
Login
IndustryArena Forum > Machine Controllers Software and Solutions > Fanuc > GE Fanuc & FANUC proprietary posts
Page 1 of 4 123
Results 1 to 20 of 76
  1. #1
    Community Moderator
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    6855

    GE Fanuc & FANUC proprietary posts

    It has come to our attention that GE Fanuc and FANUC proprietary and
    copyrighted information is being published on a (CNCZone.com).

    The specific information relates to software option keys and security
    passwords for accessing these software option keys for FANUC CNC
    products. Our software, and the option key information, is fully
    copyrighted. Additionally, the security passwords are fully protected
    by Non-Disclosure Agreements with no right for distribution.

    If you have posted anything that pertains to the above REMOVE IT ASAP. See the rules about posting here.

  2. #2
    Registered
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    136

    Thumbs up Protectionist clap trap

    What an absolutely typical heavy handed response by Fanuc / GE Fanuc.

    I have seen no-one post parameter setting information for options. All we do here is to assist people with machine tool problems. Fanuc need to take a hard look at themselves, if we advise a member what this or that alarm means and how to resolve the problem.....good for us.

    Fanuc......go away and don't be petty !!!! Haven't heard any other controls company complaining, Fanuc obviously dont know what customer goodwill is.

  3. #3
    Registered
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    121
    Problem with GE Fanuc is GE not Fanuc. Trust me.

  4. #4
    Community Moderator Al_The_Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    23820
    Quote Originally Posted by fanuservicetech View Post
    Problem with GE Fanuc is GE not Fanuc. Trust me.
    Strange, I thought the latter had bought out the former.
    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.

  5. #5
    Registered
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    136
    The point is, Fanuc know these options are turned on all over the place, some deliberately and some by accident. Many options need additional hardware so cannot be used in any case and Fanuc engineers routinely turn off options not paid for. If Fanuc market a CNC control with so little protection for these options, then more fool them.....I have no sympathy for them or their silly dic-tats. Other companies successfully protect their copyrights with serial number lockouts or updates you must pay before getting a disk or a download to activate them, unlike Fanuc who send in a Service Tech to turn on the "secret" 9000 bit. All that said, I work for an OEM and I have the full listing, but I would never pass this info on because it is dishonest.

  6. #6
    Community Moderator Al_The_Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    23820
    Quote Originally Posted by philserveng View Post
    = in any case and Fanuc engineers routinely turn off options not paid for. If Fanuc market a CNC control with so little protection for these options, then more fool them....
    I don't see how they would even have the right to do that, I assume you own the machine you have paid for, as far as I know, Fanuc do not license the software, but sell the system to OEM's or end users?
    Al.
    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.

  7. #7
    Registered
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    136

    Don't be so sure

    When I say "routinely" I mean it, because if you call out a Fanuc engineer he will check the Fanuc data base for options that have been purchased against the control serial number. If options have been turned on, not paid for, he will turn them off, this practice is quite legal because they own the software copyright.

    (Fanuc can, and will take legal action if they suspect a deliberate on-going fraud, rather like record companies for the counterfeit of music CD's).

    However, he will also turn ON any valid options that are not active for any reason, memory corruption etc;.

    They also check the warranty period using the control serial number, so they know when the warranty ends.

    If you don't believe me.....ask Fanuc.

  8. #8
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Posts
    779
    Hi.
    I read these posts and have made sure that live in civilized capitalistic world is "heavy" within certain limits. On vast area of last USSR we don't have these kind of problems with soviet equipment and we're used to utilize unlicensed products. On our computers all of us have AutoCAD, MathCAD, Fotoshop and so on. And I don't wanna to pay for some options like drawing function on 10T. Can someone help me?

  9. #9
    Registered
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    95

    LeBlond Makino FNC60 Fanuc OMC

    Does anyone have Parameters and Diagnostic For this Machine. Our machine serial is V2152

  10. #10
    It is not clear to me if the codes in question are actually copyrighted.
    Probably so if they appeared in publications displaying the copyright notice.

    As long as GE properly supports any older systems that use the codes,
    then I have no problem with such legal-shmegal.

    However sometimes if a company stops supporting a particular product
    and refuses to supply even the access codes so the users can at least
    perform the support themselves on a particular system, then they
    would not have much of an ethical leg to stand on and the copyright
    could then be effectively 'busted' in court.

    Current General Copyright rules (found on the net):

    Copyrighted 1964-1977
    All books initially copyrighted in the US from 1964 through 1977 have had their copyrights automatically renewed (by law) and the copyrights are still in force. The initial copyright term was 28 years; the renewal was for 67 more years. So a book initially copyrighted in 1964 will pass into the public domain in 1964 + 28 + 67 + 1= 2060.

    Copyrighted 1978-
    All books initially copyrighted in the US from 1978 to date are still protected by copyright law. The period of copyright protection is governed by complex rules. Generally speaking copyright protection ends 70 years after death of author.

  11. #11
    Community Moderator Al_The_Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    23820
    I think the items in question are, 1/ Option Codes, these are options already in the machine, but were not payed for at purchase time, so they require payment to Fanuc to turn the bit on.
    2/PDF manuals sold by Fanuc on CD medium.
    3/Offline Development Software.

    User parameters, Diagnostic & timer-counter values, and changes to the PMC Ladder are not usually covered.
    Fanuc also used to List Service Bulletins on their web site for down-load.
    I see they have now stopped this practice and presumably you would have to contact fanuc to obtain these if at all.
    Al.
    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.

  12. #12
    Registered
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    767
    I think we're arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Intellectual property rights are generally respected in the US, and I acknowledge the time and effort that Fanuc put into developing the software ... However ....

    Any laws that are not enforced are pretty useless. Without enforcment, it just becomes a matter of your own personal concience. It would be wrong to share proprietary information if that act does harm to someone (Fanuc). The question is: If I DIDN'T give the option parameter info to the customer, would he ever turn around and buy the option from Fanuc? Probably not.

    Years ago, when I was a Fanuc service engineer for General Numeric, I would frequently be "left in the dark" about option parameters, "secret" diagnostic techniques, etc. Whenever a new model controller came out, the secret information game started all over again. In most cases, I would eventually cross paths with a service engineer from a Japanese or Tiawanese machine tool company, who would just hand us the list of option parameters with the descriptions in Japanese. It usually took about 3 months for the option parameters to be universally known by all the field guys. Even the new encryption algorithms that generate passwords from the control's serial number eventually become public domain information. There are some pretty smart people out there servicing this stuff.

    The worst behavior that I've seen is a service engineer actually SELLING the information on the side. That's pretty unforgivable in my book.

  13. #13
    Gold Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    2932
    "The question is: If I DIDN'T give the option parameter info to the customer, would he ever turn around and buy the option from Fanuc? Probably not."

    Dan... IMHO, if the customer wants the option, he should buy it. He's going to make money on it. Just like a seat of AutoCAD, MathCAD, and Fotoshop and so on (yes Guhl, BUY it). It's not shareware, it's not freeware.

    I think the bottom line is this: Paul (Site Owner) said that if we've posted Fanuc or GE Fanuc proprietary information on HIS site to remove it. I assume that this also means that this proprietary stuff shouldn't be posted here in the future, either. End of story.

  14. #14
    Registered
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    767
    dcoupar:

    You're right. If the end user wants a new option, he SHOULD buy it, but that's not exactly what I was tallking about. Suppose you were hired to fix up an old Fanuc system 5T and the parameters are gone. You've got to not only set all the NON-option parameters, but you've got to know many of the option parameters just to make the darn thing run. Hint: The programmable controller is an option (and if the PC doesn't work, the whole machine is a boat anchor)

    Now, how about a Fanuc 0M-C that lost it's marbles? The customer has a nice file with all the parameters backed up, but the serial port doesn't work because the serial port is an OPTION. You've got to load the option parameter (manually), then set the baudrate/stop bits parameters manually, then get the darn thing talking to your laptop just to be able to load that file. Of course, you could just key all that stuff in by hand ....

    Or how about the Fanuc 6M-B that had it's bubble memory board go out. You get an aftermarket board from Tulip Technologies for a fraction of the cost of a Fanuc board, then load all the parameters that the customer had written down. But hey ... his 4th axis isn't working because somebody added it to the control in 1985 and didn't update the parameter list. Now YOU better have that 4th axis option parameter or your machine is going to be a 3-axis mill forever. (hurry, there's a box full of castings for that nice 4-axis job the customer needs to get out by Friday) ...

    Sure, you can buy these options, but sometimes you'll have to buy them AGAIN, and sometimes you'll have to buy them just because you can't prove that the guy who sold you the machine 5 years ago already bought them. Sometimes, you'll have to buy them and wait 2 weeks for a Fanuc guy to show up (while your customer takes those nice castings elsewhere).

    If Fanuc wants to keep all this information completely private, it needs to provide the services that an end user needs to make things right in an emergency. That would be a comprehensive database with all the options ever installed in every control (by serial number) and a willingness to respond at minimal cost when an old control barfs. As far as I can see, Fanuc is not willing to make that commitment to the end users. Fanuc does provide excellent service (for a price), but there are times when the customer needs more. Some used machines are purchased at auction for less than the cost of a 1-day service call from a Fanuc engineer.

  15. #15
    Gold Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    2932
    Points taken.

    MY point was, they (option parameters) shouldn't be posted on this site, period (per the owner of this site). Once an option parameter is up here, then even those who don't legally own it can have it. And I for one don't want to see Fanuc, or GE Fanuc, or anyone else shut this site down because of this.

  16. #16
    Registered
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Posts
    767
    I agree that this forum should not contain any option parameter information. I'll be careful to not post anything proprietary in the future. This is a valuable forum. Let's keep it that way.

  17. #17
    I agree too. Bad Karma.

  18. #18
    Registered
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    136
    only option parameters (9000's) are protected by Fanuc (Threading cycles, rigid tapping etc not physical hardware such as tape readers.

    if you want something in a store.....you pay for it, options have to be paid for.

  19. #19
    Community Moderator Al_The_Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    23820
    Quote Originally Posted by philserveng View Post
    only option parameters (9000's) are protected by Fanuc
    ....Also the manuals in PDF format, AFAIK.

    Whilst I do not condone the selling of supposedly proprietary knowledge, and Fanuc also frowns on anyone giving it away.
    But I am of the opinion that if I purchased a machine and I have not signed any license agreement etc, what is to stop me modifying the machine to my hearts content, I know some owners that have messed around with the 900/9000 par. until they get some other option, this is for their own personal use.
    I think Fanuc is to blame here with the earlier machines in as much as putting all the options in the machine, but the only ones turned on were the ones ordered!
    It is a method that is asking for trouble.
    It is like me buying a book, which is proprietary, and I rewrite the last chapter, just for my own personal pleasure without attempting to re-sell it.
    Am I guilty of copyright infringement.
    Also similar to FTA Free-to Air television, which is beamed into the ether and into my personal living space, but I am not supposed to modify this signal if I happen to receive it and happens to be scrambled by the transmitter.
    If the originator does not want it to be decoded by me, then the method used should be modification proof.
    My spin anyway.
    Al.
    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.

  20. #20
    Gold Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    2932
    As far as loading all the options and charging you to turn them on: If I'm not mistaken, Haas still does it that way (but you need a "code" to unlock the option), Yasnac does it that way, AFAIK, many CAM and DNC companies do it that way. It's strictly a cost-saving thing, I think.

    In the old days you could get in and change the option parameters, but the control builders wised up and password protected them. I've also heard of cases where the user changed the wrong option parameter and wiped 'em all out... a sly move on the control builder's part to prevent unauthorized activation maybe?

    IMHO, it's like "demo" software downloads; go ahead and try them out, but if you want to make money (use the full functionality) you gotta pay the piper. I know Haas went to this method of "temporary" licensing so you could try the options before you buy. They probably want you to get accustomed to the convenience of the option, then it'll be a no-brainer when it comes time to pony-up.

Page 1 of 4 123

Similar Threads

  1. Solidcam Fanuc 3-4-5 axis Mill and Fanuc 2-3 axis Turn Posts (2013)
    By calver in forum SolidCAM for SolidWorks and SolidCAM for Inventor
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 11-04-2021, 07:34 PM
  2. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-08-2014, 07:25 PM
  3. Fanuc 0T and Haas Posts for camworks
    By rrbmachining in forum CamWorks
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-21-2009, 08:15 PM
  4. Minor changes to Generic Fanuc Posts....
    By gearsoup in forum Post Processors for MC
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 06-01-2007, 04:32 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •