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IndustryArena Forum > MetalWorking Machines > Daewoo/Doosan > I never understood what Fanuc people meant by Fansuck until this 5700.
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  1. #1
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    I never understood what Fanuc people meant by Fansuck until this 5700.

    This is our first Fanuc mill. We have a Hurco mill that we previously had. We asked some questions of the sales guy who suggested tape mode would allow us to run programs of enormous size from RS232 with normal functionality- specifically search, replace, edit, restart.

    In reality you lose, search, edit, re-acquiring the program and can only regain some function by programming the single path machine like a cumbersome multi-path machine using 198 calls for multiple programs by tool -(programs that also cannot start in the middle because Fanuc won't allow you to search the 232 program). It's a waste of time, now I realize why people don't want to buy fanuc controls on mills. This is probably the side of the house where Fanuc gets the **** kicked out of them. Our other 5 Fanuc controls are multiaxis turning, and we don't seem to have problems getting programs to fit in the control memory.

    When the solution to the problem is do **** harder and get more headaches to get the job done that's a motivator to buy something else. I had about two days of workholding jobs - 4 different jobs all settup with programs supplied in 2 hours on the first day. Dancing around with G68 angle skews and tape mode has probably added two days to that work. I can see the operator body language saying, "I'm really frustrated with this crippled operating condition and these hurdles", and that guy has a good attitude. I dislike strongly when outside conditions effect my employees enjoyment of work because that tells me this stuff is pushing those people closer to a place where I can't compete and keep them.

  2. #2
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    Re: I never understood what Fanuc people meant by Fansuck until this 5700.

    OK, running from "TAPE" mode is one way to run a large program. But somewhat balky. I prefer running from the PC card slot, I/O channel 4. Much easier.
    You make each tool a "program" on the card, ie - Center drill is O0001, Drill, O0002, etc.
    Then, On your CNC memory, you would write a main program -

    %
    O1000(MAIN 1)
    M198 P1;
    M198 P2;
    etc.
    M30;

    Now, you can run LARGE programs without a balky RS 232 connection, plus MUCH easier program restart and re-run.
    The G68 function would be in one of those programs with your angle tolerances inserted, and you can run.

  3. #3
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    Re: I never understood what Fanuc people meant by Fansuck until this 5700.

    When you and your guys are ready. Training is free. For life. As long as you have a Doosan on your floor.
    All you have to do is get here. Lunch and coffee are free. Make your own travel lodging arrangements, and two days, hands on, here in the showroom.
    You register for free online:
    https://doosanmt-training.coursestorm.com/

    Knowledge is power. Come get some.

  4. #4
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    Re: I never understood what Fanuc people meant by Fansuck until this 5700.

    Quote Originally Posted by DouglasR View Post
    OK, running from "TAPE" mode is one way to run a large program. But somewhat balky. I prefer running from the PC card slot, I/O channel 4. Much easier.
    You make each tool a "program" on the card, ie - Center drill is O0001, Drill, O0002, etc.
    Then, On your CNC memory, you would write a main program -

    %
    O1000(MAIN 1)
    M198 P1;
    M198 P2;
    etc.
    M30;

    Now, you can run LARGE programs without a balky RS 232 connection, plus MUCH easier program restart and re-run.
    The G68 function would be in one of those programs with your angle tolerances inserted, and you can run.
    Based on the short time we've been working with this, it doesn't seem there is a training solution to this problem. I do appreciate the offer, but our people are busy trying to produce work with the machine.

    It is a pretty large weakness in the machine, and that's obvious, but this is difficult to figure out a solution to. We did call fanuc, and our Ellison application person, who basically confirmed there is no way to run a somewhat normal CAM produced mill program in the machine without using some form of drip feed and awkward method of running the program. We did figure out the


    Program start of main program
    M198 P0004 (program O0004 ending in M99)
    M01

    Program continues ending in M30

    Method of programming the machine, but that was the less handicapped version that still represents an abnormal way to run the program that costs extra time and takes most of the control away from the operator. (edit, restart, search etc)

    In this case we specifically asked a pre-sale question about the small control memory and being able to load and run large programs normally with search, edit, restart, and other functions normally in easy guide I. We were told by sales rep that that was possible through the fanuc card slot and the only weakness of the method was literally the card being in the slot.

    That wasn't true- probably a lack of understanding by the rep. "No weakness" doesn't cost 25-50% of the time negotiating 2 days of prove outs. - Litterally oh **** moments where the program is stopped, and we have to re-run large sections of code over just to get back to where we were. - machine movement, spindle rotation, needless wear etc. Fanuc did that. They sucker punched the customer with the lack of control from the card.

    Now apparently maybe the Fanuc data server is a way to confront the reality that the machine has insufficient memory for normal CAM programs on mundane parts. I don't know what that option costs, but it should be something Fanuc just does to be competitive, because the machine has nearly no memory. Solid state 250gig drives cost $60-100 and shouldn't reduce the reliability of Fanuc's hardware only machine because they are solid state hardware.

    Doosan did a good job making the machine. Fanuc is just cutting its balls off. Fast tool changes are negated if your people are spending hours to proove out parts because they hit a button and have to restart from the beginning a long section of drip fed code, or because they have to load several programs and weave them together like a programmer to get the machine running.

  5. #5

    Re: I never understood what Fanuc people meant by Fansuck until this 5700.

    Or you could do what I did with my lathe and rip out every piece of hardware that says Fanuc on it, and replace it with something that works and is user friendly.
    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA

  6. #6
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    Re: I never understood what Fanuc people meant by Fansuck until this 5700.

    There is a data server option that can be field installed.
    Also, if you are aware of the M198 function then perhaps you can exploit it to your advantage. You can divvy up the roughing sequences etc to make it easier to tackle.
    Just tryin' to help.

  7. #7
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    Re: I never understood what Fanuc people meant by Fansuck until this 5700.

    I was doing really pathetic stuff like cutting one set of step jaws on a two station vise and having it consume 30000 lines of code roughing with a dynamic mill path, and that was more than the control could let me load, so we were spending more time jockying with files than actually machining parts. I talked to some CAM gurus on a Mastercam forum who gave me tips to condense the paths to 25% of their size.

    That doesn't take away the fact that Fanuc's memory is embarassing, weak, and pathetic, but it does possibly reduce the extent to which I will run into the problem. We intend to do production work, up to 24 parts in the machine at a time with workholding we already have, so 25% of the size probably won't eliminate the problem.

    I think the Doosan machine is better than the Fanuc control at this point. In my couple of years shopping around, program memory is the worst beating Fanuc takes. The I series Oi's are behind the times in block read speed, look ahead, and program memory. It is easy for people not to notice block read speed, but look ahead and program memory are pretty important today.

  8. #8
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    Re: I never understood what Fanuc people meant by Fansuck until this 5700.

    Quote Originally Posted by Green0 View Post
    I was doing really pathetic stuff like cutting one set of step jaws on a two station vise and having it consume 30000 lines of code roughing with a dynamic mill path, and that was more than the control could let me load, so we were spending more time jockying with files than actually machining parts. I talked to some CAM gurus on a Mastercam forum who gave me tips to condense the paths to 25% of their size.

    That doesn't take away the fact that Fanuc's memory is embarrassing, weak, and pathetic, but it does possibly reduce the extent to which I will run into the problem. We intend to do production work, up to 24 parts in the machine at a time with work holding we already have, so 25% of the size probably won't eliminate the problem.

    I think the Doosan machine is better than the Fanuc control at this point. In my couple of years shopping around, program memory is the worst beating Fanuc takes. The I series Oi's are behind the times in block read speed, look ahead, and program memory. It is easy for people not to notice block read speed, but look ahead and program memory are pretty important today.
    I am sorry your having an issue with the Fanuc. I have a couple of comments. First, Doosan picks the CNC they offer on the machine including all the options and storage. The person who purchased the machine also had a say on what the machine specification were. Finally if a Cam system produces 30k lines of code to do some roughing on step jaws, then you should really look for a better cam system. To me it look like someone dropped the ball before you started working on the machine. Fanuc can be a pain some days, but day in and day out if you want to make money with your machine, Fanuc just works, day after day after day......

    Best of luck I hope you fine an answer that fits your needs. While data server works it is not a direct replacement for part program storage.

  9. #9
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    Re: I never understood what Fanuc people meant by Fansuck until this 5700.

    Dynamic milling is awesome. Here are the tips you probably already know, but the defaults are suck for short programs.
    Also remember that the entire point of dynamic paths is to reduce depth cuts, so make your depth cuts your entire cutting length of the end mill. I have seen programs in the wild that are 3MB when they only needed to be 300K.

    In the example bellow I leave .02" on the XY. This will guarantee no over cutting. Might want to leave more if more aggressive, tool flex will take off more material than you expect at large depth cuts.
    TIP: the total tolerance is what makes toolpaths really small. There is no reason to hold it at .001 especially if you are leaving lots of stock. Open that up and let mastercam make huge arc moves to replace many many line moves.

    Attachment 408252

  10. #10
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    Re: I never understood what Fanuc people meant by Fansuck until this 5700.

    I'm pretty sure we actually forgot how to drip feed from the card from a program call. I paid someone to figure it out again and write the procedure down. I guess we should have made that a written procedure. These secondary problems are such that in hindsight I would have just bought a Hurco or DMG mill if I had known what a pain in the ass it would be to run the machine. We have a macro now that does some memory saving function from some CAM guru but we don't even know what it means or how to use it- I'll drop that in below.

    We called about a memory upgrade today, and Fanuc only offers 2MB (so 4 times not **** for memory) max storage on this low numbered control (there was no higher numbered option for the DNM5700). With our 31I B lathes we did a memory upgrade to 4MB (smaller than the 8 max because lathes don't get too crazy for lines of code) for $1700 per machine $425 per MB. Ellison/Fanuc wants $2000 for these 2MB $1000 per MB. In 1996 Nintendo released Tales of Phantasia and Star Ocean for $69 and it had 48MB of ROM memory- $2.30 per MB when adjusted for inflation. Fanuc apparently punishes customers for their failure to design adequate memory into their control. The program memory is just embarrassing.

    here's the Greek macro that is intended to allow recycling code on different offsets to help the small minded Fanuc keep up.


    O1000 (MULTI-OFFSET MACRO)
    (MACRO RUNS SUB PROGRAMS STARTING AT G54 SUB PROG O1001)

    N10 (MACRO SETUP/INITIALIZE)
    IF[#510EQ1]GOTO20 (SKIP IF INITIALIZED)
    G4X.1 (STOP LOOK AHEAD)
    #500=10. (TOTAL NUMBER OF OFFSETS)
    #501=1. (FIRST OFFSET, 1=G54.1P1)
    #502=1001. (FIRST SUB PROGRAM)
    #510=1. (SET INITIALIZED)

    N20 (CALL OFFSET)
    IF[#501GT#500]GOTO9000
    G90G54P#501
    G4X.1

    N30 (SETUP SUB PROG NUMBER)
    G65P#502
    #501=[#501+1]
    #502=[#502+1]
    M01
    IF[#501LT#500]GOTO20
    G4 X.1

    N40 (END ALL)
    #501=1.
    #510=0.

    G4X.1
    N9000 (ERROR - OFFSET OUT OF RANGE)
    #300=1(OUT*OF*RANGE)
    M30

    I just got an update, and that remembering how to wrestle with Fanuc and squeeze some capability out hasn't happened yet. I'm just really unhappy with the **** piss memory of this machine. It just handicaps the hell out of a decent machine. You can't for any reasonable cost buy an actual solution to this problem. 2MB is apparently it. Everything else runs differently as far as people are telling me. You just can't pretend this machine is competitive with anything out there like this. Even HAAS has 1GB standard.

    Fanuc should send everyone an apology letter with the 2MB for free and say, "We're sorry we're just incapable of being competitive on this."

  11. #11
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    Re: I never understood what Fanuc people meant by Fansuck until this 5700.

    Can you post a picture of the part you are doing with a ruler next to it. Or better yet the entire fixture on the machine. Then we can get an idea if its a programming issue that can be solved with CAM or if the part is just too complex for the control.

    2MB is a fair amount of memory. Unless you are doing something very memory intensive like 5x milling or intense 3D surfacing it will suffice for the majority of 2D and 3D parts. A picture of all your tool paths in backplot with the dots turned on will also help.

  12. #12
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    Re: I never understood what Fanuc people meant by Fansuck until this 5700.

    Quote Originally Posted by avongil View Post
    Dynamic milling is awesome. Here are the tips you probably already know, but the defaults are suck for short programs.
    Also remember that the entire point of dynamic paths is to reduce depth cuts, so make your depth cuts your entire cutting length of the end mill. I have seen programs in the wild that are 3MB when they only needed to be 300K.

    In the example bellow I leave .02" on the XY. This will guarantee no over cutting. Might want to leave more if more aggressive, tool flex will take off more material than you expect at large depth cuts.
    TIP: the total tolerance is what makes toolpaths really small. There is no reason to hold it at .001 especially if you are leaving lots of stock. Open that up and let mastercam make huge arc moves to replace many many line moves.

    Attachment 408252
    Thanks for that - I'm going to try that to help make the modern programs off the most popular CAM system in the US CNC industry more compatible with Fanuc's abysmal memory.

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