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Thread: Kira VTC 30

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  1. #1
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    Kira VTC 30

    I figured that I'd make a topic on this new project of mine. I bought a old Tree/Kira VTC30 that did not work and I didn't have any chance to test it with power before purchasing it. My only CNC experience before this is a 60x40 chinese cnc router with mach3 so I think the learning curve will be steep. My plan is to hopefully be able to fix it and have a running machine obviously. The error I was told about is that they could not get the spindle running. Then there is a transport damage with broken power and encoder cable to the Y stepper driver. I've ordered new plugs and will solder in new once when they arrive. Until then I don't want to power up the machine just not to get more errors in because of the missing encoder signal cable that I would have to unplug.

    I love threads with photos so I will put some in this one as I go forward on the project.

    Here is the photos I got from the seller before buying it. These where taken by the shop he bought it from because I noticed that it's in another location than he had it stored in and the keepad on the first photos is old. In the photos in the shop he had it stored in the keepad is new. Almost wonder if there's a problem related to the whole controle system since that pad was replaced but who knows^^



    Then a few weeks went by and I looked at some smaller chinese machines and manual mills considering those instead. I was really not into buying a huge machine like this not knowing if anything works at all. I then spoke abit with the seller again and made a trip to have a look at it. I was about to leave without buying it but then he offered it to me at a really good price and I felt I had to go for it. Worst thing I can prolly sell some parts from it and make some of it back atleast. More to follow in next post.

  2. #2
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    Re: Kira VTC 30

    Since I didn't have a location for such a heavy cnc machine I had to start making room for it. I had a room that's been sitting around without a floor that is approx 3.6x2.5 meters. It's not huge but the machine itself is 1.7x1.25m so it should fit with some space on all sides. First thing to do was to prepare drain and water since I want that before pouring concrete and making it hard to install later. Keep in mind that I'm no professional here so there might be errors done or stupid ways of doing things but it's just stones beneath so no danger of the machine falling anywhere if I made a mistake with the concrete so I wanted to do this DIY.



    I then used insulation under just incase I want to heat this room for later and placed some iron armouring(?) to reinforce the concrete.



    Then it was concrete pouring time. This was approx 1m^3 of concrete or 2300kg of concrete that I mixed manually. A lot of work but I don't live close to companies that delivere concrete so it's very pricey to have it delivered if buying mixed concrete.


    The concrete has now been curing for almost two weeks and the floor came out decent for a first time concrete worker if I'm allowed to say that myself

  3. #3
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    Re: Kira VTC 30

    And this monday I finally got the call. It was delivery time and the machine was on it's way. I was really not prepared for the size of the machine even if I had seen it before. The crane had troubles getting inside my garage so I had to use my mini excavator from inside the garage to pull while the crane driver gently set it down just to get it into the concrete floor. We managed to get it in there somehow and later that evening we drove it to a storage location inside until I'm done with the room it's going into.



    Since I'm building a workshop on top of this again there is going to be a pilar in the door opening once everything is mounted. This ment that I would not get the machine out from the room again if I can't fix it or somethings happend. The old door was also only 125cm so the machine would be very hard to get inside since it's the same width. So I have built up a new wall in the old opening and moved it/made it wider so the machine fits. I kinda had to move it to reinforce what's on top anyways so this was a good time to move it for both reasons


    Moving the door opening made new problem with the floor in the new opening I decided to use my Hilti and make it much lower than the floor since these stones are not strong enough on the surface to have high load on a small spot. Once I got it down a bit I just used some iron I had lying around even if I'm sure It's not that important down there and I poured concrete in it making it even with the rest of the floor. It would have been nicer doing this in the same pour as I did the floor but I didn't dare to make the opening bigger before I had the new wall in the old opening so it carried what's above. I will give this a week or two to cure while I paint the floor and the walls.


    I do also have a power supply problem. This machine requires a 32A 3-phase fuse and I only got a 3-phase 25A fuse for my whole workshop.. I will need to pull approx 75meters of new thick cable to be able to have enough power for this. I'm doing some calculation on the cable now and hopefully will be able to pull a new one this weekend.

    Within a week or two I should have the new contacts for the servo motor so I can power up the machine and try some trouble shooting on the spindle motor. Any good tips on howto do this is welcome. I got access on a fluke, oscillioscope and wiring diagrams but I there isn't to much info on expected signal levels and so on. Does a troubleshooting guide to Fanuc 0M exist?

    There is a big chance I'm making a big fool out of myself ending up with a machine never working here but you can't succeed without trying!

  4. #4
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    Re: Kira VTC 30

    Looks like a cool machine for your shop. I had similar fears when I purchased an old 1986 J310... Honestly was not sure if I'd purchased 4,000lbs of scrap or a decent mill... I had sold my beloved Bridgeport and jumped into the deep end of CNC with zero experience. Really happy to have made the transition now and could not imagine going back to a manual mill. I don't know a thing about your machine but I can offer encouragement and moral support... I had to swap out the control on my machine, keeping the servos and amps so perhaps I can be of help if that's a direction you end op going. Good luck!

    Mike

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    Re: Kira VTC 30

    Nice! I’ve considered replacing the control system if that’s the reason for the spindle not working. Also if I can’t drip feed the program this control system won’t work due to memory limits. I might take you up on this if I ever come this far in the project. Did you rebuild into mach3 you kept the encoders?

    The cable dimensions are now clear. Due to low ik2pmin I have to use a 3x50mm2 cable from my house to the garage to meet short circuit requirement. This was crazy expensive and I’m not even sure if I will be able to pull it out to the garage. Going to do a test pull this weekend before I order the cable. I put new asphalt over the cable only one year ago so I’m really hesitant to dig up the road again to put down a new one. Without this new cable I don’t think I can even power it up to test it There is a huge voltage drop in the current cable if I put some load on it. drops from 240 to 200.. I guess I will only ruin electronics if I test on voltage as low as this and when I power up the machine the 9kva trans will act almost like a short and pull it even further down until it powers up. What do you guys think?

  6. #6
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    Re: Kira VTC 30

    Electronics, servo amps and servo motors will likely all be useable with your current 25amp 3phase service. You may have issues if your taking a big cut at 40ipm... Not sure why your seeing so mush voltage drop? Is it a long run? Perhaps the service wire gauge is undersized?

  7. #7
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    Re: Kira VTC 30

    Yes it is 75 meters approx and the wire is indeed undersized. It's now a 6mm2 cable (9AWG) on the 25A fuse. According to a software my company uses for cable dimensions according to the spec in my country i need 50mm2(0AWG) to meet the requirements in 2017. They didn't care/know as much 20-25years ago when this was installed

    A long and boring story, drop this part if you don't want to read OT: In theory I shouldn't have more than 10V-ish drop from 240 to 230 but it's more when I measure since it drops on the intake as well. I complained last year because when I was charging my eletric car at only 16Amp, put on a dishwasher and a water heater it pulled voltage down 20V in the fuse box (not at end of cable). My power supplier then had part of the line from me to the trans upgraded and the voltage out from the trans was adjusted up so I got 240v on my intake instead of 210v that I had. My neighbour had problems for years with equipment that wouldn't start up but they always thought it was broken. When he tried it after they installed a new cable and adjusted it started working again It's not perfect still but it's better. I live on a farm pretty spread out so we got some distance to the trans with old thin cables and this makes things more complicated

    I'm just afraid of frying electronics with such big voltage drop. Low voltage in the eletronic circuits often give higher amps and ruin circuits. I don't know how prone this machine is to that but I don't want to play with fire. I will try to get a new cable on monday and install it before I start it up. Not to afraid of doing the test with the 25A breaker that is there today since worst case it will just trip. I need to do this upgrade anyways so might as well do it before I ruin anything.

    Edit:

    Just tried googling a bit. Since this machine has a 9kVA trans does it mean that it has approx 900Amp inrush current? That's crazy

    https://www.ametherm.com/inrush-curr...h-current.html

  8. #8
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    Re: Kira VTC 30

    Not much happening here. The room is slowly getting ready so I'm going to post some pics from that. I started last week with high pressur washing the room. The old paint didn't like that so i was back with concrete walls.



    I first coated the floor/walls/ceiling with something to avoid concrete dust and to get the paint to stick.


    Then sealed off the door temporary since have 0 degrees in the night here in Norway now and that's to low for the paint to dry.


    Paint time! Painted all walls and ceiling with white concrete paint. I'm never going to get headhunted as a painter that's clear now I should do two layers but this isn't in the livingroom so it'l do. The point was to get it to reflect more light so it's better working conditions not that it needs to be pretty.


    As I've walked past the machine many times lately I had a closer look at the doors. The switch for one side of the doors is far from beeing triggered. Looks like the other door should trigger it but it's not touching the wheel when closed. Wonder if that can have a play in the spindle not starting. There is a ihibit key for the door switches so maybe it's allready tested but worth checking once I get it powered up. I now got both the amphenol connectors so will solder it up tomorrow. Still no power available for testing. Can anyone confirm if I can ruin anything to test the machine off a 16A 3phase contact prolly with a decent voltage drop during startup? Not going to mill anything but would like to just dry run things and troubleshoot.

  9. #9
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    Re: Kira VTC 30

    Good work so far! Impressed by your determination to build a proper home for your new mill. Wish I could give you a perfect answer as to the risk associated with running the control and servos with your limited electrical service... I'd guess it's unlikely you'll destroy anything. When you start the machine you're running the computer/CNC control and the display only. I'd guess you have sufficient power for that. If you enable servos you then need a fair bit or power as the amps start. Next, if you move an axis your asking for yet more power to supply a servo with power to move the table. Finally there is the spindle, lot's of power needed for that... You can take it in steps...

    Regarding door position switch: My J310 won't enable the servos until all the interlocks are closed. These are: Two NC cabinet switches, three NC axis limit switches (X,Y,Z). If you can get servos enabled you'll hear a BIG relay go "Ker-Chunk" and you may hear some 15khz whine from the amp. If you can get servos enabled you can try some slow axis moves and see how things run... As for the spindle, I'd wait until you have your new service installed before you fire that up...

    Lastly, this came into my inbox today. Pretty much sums up my early days of CNC...
    https://www.cnccookbook.com/10-thing...sletter+Oct+25


    Mike

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    Re: Kira VTC 30

    Thanks. I just know myself good enough that I will never fix the room if I don’t do it upfront Will try as you said and see what happens. I guess the electronics must be designed to withstand it.

    Thank you you for the link. Saved the page and going to read it now on a airplane trip. Perfect timing!

    Memoryman here on the forum also directed me to a 300page manual of the Fanuc 0M control system so lots of reading to do Love finding good documentation like this. It makes troubleshooting things much easier and less of a guesswork.

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    Re: Kira VTC 30

    Tomorrow I'm moving the machine into the new room so I had to get some work done while I had good access. Rigged myself with a soldering station and some gear to fix the amphenol contaxts on the Y servo motor.



    Since I've forgotten to put on nuts/rings/clamps 100 times before I have this little trick of fixing them in correct order as the first thing I do. It's so easy to forget and you really don't want to solder 20 new connectors just to fit a forgotten ring


    I had a wiring diagram for the cable/connectors but just to be on the safe side I disconnected the Z stepper cable and verified the connections with measuring the contacts. I really don't want to get it wrong so better safe than sorry. The schematics was correct so it was wasted time ^^


    The "squid" is really helpfull since having two hands when soldering stuff like this is mission impossible.


    Encoder connector done. Amphenol 20pins is now on my top 10 worst connectors to work with list. I don't think it's a good solution to have the cables loose inside the connector without anything taking up slack. It won't move much since it's inside a sleeve but I would prefer fixing it just to be safe. Might open it and fill it with silicone just to avoid it breaking over time due to vibrations. Good idea or not?


    And the 4 pin male fitted to the power wires. This connector has been replaced before. The ground wire was really really short and made it hard but I got it in the end. Used some high temp silicone to seal the surface since I didn't have a grommet and there was none in place on the old contact.


    And the final result. Will disconnect them tomorrow and do a new measurement to confirm that the wiring is ok. I did it now also but 00:30 in the night isn't the best time to be sure it's correct.

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    Re: Kira VTC 30

    Had a tiny setback today. When just going over the machine to check that everything was OK I noticed that the power cable going into the spindle motor had a crack in the connector housing where it enters the motor. This must have happened when it got delivered with the crane I can't see any broken connectors so I think it's just the cover. Will try to clean up some tomorrow and see if it can be epoxied back together. The housing looked clean inside so I think the machine has been run with this issue. Hope I can repair it in situ as it looked like a lot of work to remove the motor.

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    Re: Kira VTC 30

    So I had the first powerup today. The Fanuc Servo amplifier (a06B-6058-H33A) instantly trips my earth fault protection. I only got one earth protection on the whole house (30mA) so it might be that it's rated to low. I'm surprised that the AC spindle units powers up tho so I suspect something broken Does anyone know if the servo motors are powered up during energizing this unit? I get power to the rest of the machine but the display is black. Back to troubleshooting I guess Any schematics on the servo amplifier would be of great help. If disconnecting the servo's doesn't help I will try removing it and look for broken components later.

    EDIT:

    Scratch that last part. I know disconnected all the servo motors and it started Display was alive and kicking also so I'm a happy camper. The Y and Z axis doesn't cause any problems when I connect them again so I guess the problem is in the X servo motor. I need to read some more on the startup procedure to make sure I follow the steps before I proceed testing the Y and Z axis. Will do some google later and see if I can open the motor and have a look for corrosion and such. Could be just damp inside I guess but not sure how I could fix that without removing it from the machine.

    Edit2:

    https://youtu.be/AqUR1msLQDU

    So I completed the startup procedure and I did had to change the phases. Tested the Z and Y servo motors, set the spindle speed and started it. Was surprised that it did run :O I was shocked since I got told it wouldn't start and that's the reason he sold it. It didn't start when I tried at first but that was because I'm not familiar with fanuc so I was fiddling some to set the speed. It just made a sound and barely moved when I started it at first.

    For the X servo motor I disconnected the cable from the servo control unit. Measured phase-to-phase 1.4Ohm and Phase-ground to 300kOhm. That explains why my earth protection trips when energizing it. I opened the connector and found a lot of water inside it I do have a spare amphenol 18-10 connector so when I get more time I will desolder, measure the cable and if that's fine replace the connector. The table is in a akward X position so I have a hard time getting access to the motor to have a look at the other connector end. If I'm lucky the issue is in the connector/cable. It does measure 300kOhm Phase-ground with the servo motor disconnected so there is for sure a fault now in the cable/connector.


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    Re: Kira VTC 30

    Today it was a few steps back. I made a new power cable for the X servo motor but it still measures 500kOhm or so from phase to earth. I noticed when I took out the cable again that it was dripping water from the power connector so now I left the machine with a 2kW heater blowing on the motor. It's cold in the room so it won't get more than maybe 25 degrees or so but hopefully that can help dry it. Is it likely that I need to remove the servo to service it/replace it or could it just be moisture? Before all this I tried to power up without the power connector inserted. It then showed this not ready warning. When I disconnect the encoder cable to the X servo the message dissapears so there is something not good with that servo



    Encoder connector looks pretty good so it must be inside it. Also no leak when measuring the cable.


    I was looking into how to remove the motor to try to open it up and have a look. But it looks like someone welded the inspection hatch. I guess I can't remove it with so little access? There is barely 1 inch gap between the servo end and the chassis of the machine. Is it even possible to clean and service these DIY or does it have to be sent in? Can I mess something up with removing the motor and rotating it without it beeing installed to the machine or is the encoder "dumb" so I can't misalign it when installing again?


    This is the old power connector. The new one I had was not suited for the 90 degree stock bend so I will have to reuse this or order a new one. I will most likely just order a new one but I figured I'd test my ultrasonic washer on it. It can do wonders sometimes so cleaning it now and if it looks and measures good I will reuse it. Looks like the error is inside the servo anyways.


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    Re: Kira VTC 30

    Today I finally had some time to work on the machine again. That X axis is still the main problem now to get any further. After some work I found out how to remove it and get better access. Pulled the motor from the machine and started taking it into atoms on my desk only to find dirt, water, oil, rust and all kinds of nasty stuff inside. I'm really not sure that I will be able to save this. I'm putting it back togheter with the old bearings now but if I get it working again I've noted all the bearing numbers so I will be able to order new ones and replace them later.



    This is water/grumsy stuff down at the connector for the encoder


    The encoder was pretty rusty and filled with dust. If this is fine eletronics I'm pretty sure it's dead. I cleaned it good with brake cleaner and used compressed air to blow it clean. Now it's drying together with the other parts. Not really sure how to attack it in other ways.


    This is after first round of cleaning inside it.. Still pretty nasty. I cleaned it some more manually with the brake cleaner + compressed air until the worst parts was gone. Still measuring as low as 150kOhm with a regular multimeter. I don't have a insulation tester.



    On the other side. Nasty rust on the windings. Didn't look like anything went through the epoxy on the windings atleast so could be that it survived.



    Finally when everything was taken apart I put the parts into the ultrasonic washer (except the encoder) and cleaned them for a few hours at 50 degrees C.


    Blew off the worst water/soap mixture with compressed air and went to measure. Readings went from 0.15Mohm to 30+Mohm. Can't be sure that it's good since I don't have a megger/insulation tester but it's for sure better than before and the windings are a lot cleaner.


    Drying infront of the oven over night Will be exciting tomorrow to see if this thing works now. Can I treat it with clearcoat or something to prevent corrosion again inside?

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    Re: Kira VTC 30

    I forgot to update but will do it now in case anyone reads this blog of mine The old motor was saved but the encoder was bad. Way to rusty and beyond repair. So I ordered a used one from England. The seller promised good packing so the contacts didn't get any damage as I was afraid of having to solder that encoder cable once more. He delivered as promised in a plastic crate. Nice with sellers keeping their promise.





    Det motor coupling had a weird nut that would require a 15.5mm wide flat screwdriver or some sort of cross tool. I didn't have this so I modified a hex tool. Not great looking but it did the job. Next time I will machine it!


    The rest of the servo motor change went fine. When I powered up again it still gave me that 453-03 not ready screen. I tested many options and had to call it a day 12:00 in the night. Went to the computer and compared diagnostic screens and manuals until 03:00. When I woke up the next morning I had an idea that it could be the Z limit switch blocking without giving me a message for it. Went out to have a look and it was indeed triggered. Removed one screw on the switch and turned it away so I could clear it and move Z axis up again. Mounted the switch back into it's possition and at next boot everything was fine. It was triggered on the third limit switch that was some sort of interlock/emergency (showed on diag 701) and it didn't give any other message than not ready. I know this for the next time it starts giving me troubles

    Today I have tested all axes and the spindle up to max speed. I don't have the proper air connections yet so I can't test the tool changer or test milling yet.

    https://youtu.be/n4asj8Mh404


    As mentioned before I got some transport damage on the spindle motor connector/housing. I will be looking into this tomorrow. If the damage isn't to bad and all the parts are there I will try to fix it with West system epoxy with some glas fiber in layers for strenght. If the damage can't be fixed like that I will try to contact fanuc for spare parts. I don't want to move the Z axis to much when I have only clamped down the cable with cable ties.

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    Re: Kira VTC 30

    Today I removed the covers to get access to the spindle motor terminal box. I took a lot of photos of the cables so I'm sure I will be able to connect everything back together like it was upfront and then disconnected all the cables and removed it from the motor




    The crack is going all the way through the terminal box. This box is having a lot of strain in this area since the box is mounted with 3x hex screws below this point and then the cable will wedge back/forth when Z axis is moving up down. A horrible design to not take off mechanical load on a stronger metal part in my opinion.


    Tok make sure everything is clean I first washed the parts in hot wayer with soap and a brush. I then put them into my ultrasonic washer for 1.5hour. Prolly not needed but so much nicer to work when everything is clean. I'm not sure epoxy will hold up so I have emailed fanuc to check if they stock this item at a decent price. From what I could find on their webpage they still have it in stock but it didn't say any price.. If it's not to expensive I will buy it new. If it's crazy I'll try to glue this first and see if it holds up. There is not thight space to put glue on so I can actually reinforce it very much with fiberglass/carbon strings and soak it with epoxy. I'm not to experienced with this so feel free to come up with good ideas.


    Does anyknow know what this could be for? It hangs on the back of my machine and is connected to a air hose and a eletrical wire. Didn't have the wiring diagrams on me so could not check what it was for atm. Almost look like some kind of air valve but the connections was massive. The air inlet for ATC control was just a regular quick connector.

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    Re: Kira VTC 30

    Today I finished cleaning the part and treated it with West system 105+205 epoxy. I only filled epoxy inside the crack and clamped it togheter. Now I will let it cure for 1-1.5day before I rough it some with sand paper and use fiberglass baked in epoxy to reinforce over the crack on both sides of the case. I think it's allready solid enough so this is just to make it foolproof Famous last words? Also got a price quote from Fanuc on the part and they had it in stock for 137 euro. Very impressing to stock this old parts and the price isn't to bad either. Since I'm allready this far in fixing it I figured that I will try first and see how it goes. If it cracks open again I'll just order a new one.


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    Re: Kira VTC 30

    I'll continue my solo blogging today :P

    The terminal box didn't fall apart after curing for 30hours when I removed the clamps. Guess that's a good thing.. I roughed it up with some 120Grit sand paper and used a thinner epoxy mix to soak fiberglass pieces and stick them over the crack. It was messy work and since I got quick epoxy I needed to complete it in under 10 minutes so I just soaked it and put it on without much consideration. Will do cleanup with a dremel after and paint it just for the looks. I think it can't hurt for the strenght to do it this way. Still curious to wether it will crack or hold up fine when I start moving it on a cold machine.


    Figured that I would take some pictures of my "cnc room" when I was working on the machine today. As you can see it's really small but it's better than nothing so I'm happy Soldered up the amphenol connector for the X servo today just to use the stock wiring path. The cable looks horrible and should not be put under load. The black patches indikates water damage to the cable so this needs replacement. I cut back as much as I could but it was black all the way. Is there any cable type that's good for moving cables like this? It's for the X servo so it moves back/forth on the Y axis. It's not much movement but I guess it should be taken under consideration when choosing a new cable.


    When I got at my desk again tonight I did a rough cut for the gasket between the terminal box and the motor. The old one had seen better days so I will replace it with a home made "old school" gasket.

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    Re: Kira VTC 30

    Keep up the great posts with all of the detailed photos. I have been watching your progress for a couple of weeks now, and am happy you were able to bring the beast back to life.

    I only have a Novakon Torus CNC mill, which is a toy next to your mill. Maybe some day I will be able to move up to a real CNC mill.

    I’m looking forward to more posts as you restore your mill and start machining parts.

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