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Thread: Mazak H 400

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  1. #1
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    Mazak H 400

    G'day all.

    My horizontal started playing up the other day and now won't co-operate at all. The z axis shudders the errors out on high amperage. I have turned the ballscrew by hand and it turns very easily. I figure it must be either The drive, the motor or the encoder. Has anyone had this issue before. I have a drive off a Multiplex 6200 t32/6 that i have parted out. I also have an encoder off the same machine but the numbers are illegible though looks the same as the one on the horizontal. Unfortunately the motors are different. All ideas appreciated.
    Regards Bob

  2. #2
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    Re: Mazak H 400

    Sudsy,
    I had to find some pictures on the internet for the control that you have, but it looks like you probably have an M3xx style that has several MR-S11 drives in it. I'm pretty familiar with those... I think you are on the right track. Frankly, it could be *any* of those that is causing the problem, but my hunch is that it is most likely the servo amplifier. Motors don't have that many issues, generally, and encoders are fairly simple. But those encoders *do* have extra tracks on them. There is the typical phase quadrature, but also a set of three tracks that are used to sequence the motor windings. This is why you have to "time" the encoder by rotating it on the servo. Did you happen to twist the encoder in the slots? If so, then that could also be the problem. But the servo amplifier would still be my #1 consideration simply because they are known for faulting out. What is the actual error code?

  3. #3
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    Re: Mazak H 400

    Quote Originally Posted by MrMetric View Post
    Sudsy,
    I had to find some pictures on the internet for the control that you have, but it looks like you probably have an M3xx style that has several MR-S11 drives in it. I'm pretty familiar with those... I think you are on the right track. Frankly, it could be *any* of those that is causing the problem, but my hunch is that it is most likely the servo amplifier. Motors don't have that many issues, generally, and encoders are fairly simple. But those encoders *do* have extra tracks on them. There is the typical phase quadrature, but also a set of three tracks that are used to sequence the motor windings. This is why you have to "time" the encoder by rotating it on the servo. Did you happen to twist the encoder in the slots? If so, then that could also be the problem. But the servo amplifier would still be my #1 consideration simply because they are known for faulting out. What is the actual error code?
    Sorry i should have said the control is M32. I do have a spare drive out of the Multiplex but that is a dual drive (2 in one). I'm guessing it should work. Powered the machine up today and as soon as i went to home the Z it moved, shuddered then alarmed out with 37 over amperage. Alarm on drive was 32. Shut down and tried again and went straight to alarm without touching anything
    Regards Bob

  4. #4
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    Re: Mazak H 400

    OK, you have an S12 as your spare drive.... You can use that, although there are some caveats on it that are covered in the MR-Sxx service manual. You should probably download a copy of that and confirm your connections, etc (I think you must put the drive on the first axis, for instance). Also, are you sure *that* drive works? It isn't uncommon for a machine to be decommissioned and parts removed because of things, oh say..., such as a drive not working. :-). Also, be aware that the MR-S12 has a different form factor from the MR-S11, so you won't be able to bolt it into the same location.

    Fundamentally the S12 is pretty much the same beast as two S11 drives crammed into one. The common components are the CPU (and associated logic) and the high voltage DC power supply. Other than that, it is pretty much the same.

    Here are a few other ideas that you may want to consider. First, it is *possible*, although not likely, that your parameters got messed up. You should probably check those first, just to be sure they match up with what you have as a backup... That is, assuming you've written them down someplace. Sadly, far too many of us forget to do that and it bites us in the rear.... This is a good time to record that custom macro that is used for the tool change, for instance. If your machine is without power for whatever period of time your battery can keep the backup alive, you'll have a boat anchor. That is unfortunate because the machine might be 100% functional other than probably 100 bytes of code.

    Another idea.... You need to be very careful with this one... swap two of your S11 drives. You'll likely need to tweak the parameter settings, but that isn't hard (and, again, it is a good time to have all that recorded). Tweaking could literally be as simple as... Make a backup before swapping, swap drives, restore the parameters from the backup. If your problem follows the drive, then you definitely have an issue with the drive. If not, then you likely have an issue with the motor or encoder. Who knows, it could always be wiring too.

    I think I actually like this last idea the best, but that is just me. The S12 just feels like you are introducing another unknown and now even an additional complication. The fact that it is an S12 instead of an S11 means you'll have to deal with mechanical issues too. My personal opinion is that you are potentially layering problems, but that is just my 2 cents.

    If you were in the States, I'd offer to have you send me the drive. Sadly, Australia is a LONG way to ship something (although I'm close to San Francisco, which is a destination hub for many Aussie flights, so maybe it will be cheaper?)

  5. #5
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    Re: Mazak H 400

    There are other swap games you can play too, by the way.... The daughter board where the encoder goes is almost certainly not going to be a problem for you. However, you can easily pull off the main control board and swap that. You'll need to upload your parameters if you do this, however, because I'm not 100% certain the M32 stores them and pushes them to the drive each time. The drives have some EEPROM on them, so they could be saving the information. It is safer just to upload params and be done with the question.

    Swapping the main board will allow you to determine if the issue is in the base or the control board. This assumes, of course, that you are confident that the issue isn't in the servo, amplifier, or wiring, of course! The base is fairly simple really. There is a large DC storage cap, rectifiers, resistors, and a bunch of BJTs that are used to synthesize the 3 phases of the AC servo. IF you have a problem there, it is most likely the BJT blocks.

    If you find that the problem is in the board, then you really may need to send it to me and we can talk about that.

    BIG BIG BIG WARNING:
    1. First and foremost... There are lethal voltages in this area of the machine. You need to be very careful. Even after you turn the machine off, you need to let it sit for a bit because that big capacitor has about 200VDC on it. There is a resistor which bleeds the charged capacitor, but it take a while for it to discharge to a safe level. Or the resistor could be broken. Put simply, you never bet your life on any of this; you always verify before you continue... I don't trust that little LED on the lower left of the main board either. Even when it is dim, there is a whallop of a charge in there! BE SAFE, BE SMART, STAY ALIVE!

    2. Anytime you mix and match, you risk damaging something that might have been working before. It goes with the territory. If you are not willing to take that risk, you should employ someone else to do the work and they will assume the risk. That, of course, comes with money.

    Needless to say, I cannot warrant one iota of what I am saying. Diagnosing things remotely is insanely difficult ("Mom, my leg hurts... should I have it amputated?"). Nor do I have any idea of what your capabilities are. For instance, you may not know the difference between AC and DC. This isn't an insult, by the way, it is a reality. If you choose to do something I'm talking about, you do so with full knowledge and acceptance that you assume all risk. At worst, you may die. On a better day, you may just fry your machine. One way or the other, we are just sharing ideas and only you are responsible for what you try. Yeah, yeah... I know... This is the legal stuff. . But I do think it is important to say. I seriously don't want to hear about someone getting hurt or killed. That would be completely contrary what I believe are the aspirations of our community here.

  6. #6
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    Re: Mazak H 400

    Oh, here is the information on error 32 (ignore the control.... the amp has what is more important to you...):
    Attachment 483184
    Attachment 483186

  7. #7
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    Re: Mazak H 400

    Thank you Mr Metric,

    That's a lot of information to digest. I didn't have time to do anything with it today unfortunately. I also have a QT18 with T32 that i may be able to swap the drive with if needed. Will see how i go over the next couple of days. Thanks a lot for you input.
    I couldn't get those links to open unfortunately
    Regards Bob

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    Re: Mazak H 400

    Quote Originally Posted by sudsy View Post
    Thank you Mr Metric,

    That's a lot of information to digest. I didn't have time to do anything with it today unfortunately. I also have a QT18 with T32 that i may be able to swap the drive with if needed. Will see how i go over the next couple of days. Thanks a lot for you input.
    I couldn't get those links to open unfortunately

    Yeah, sorry about that.... Hopefully there is *good* content there, though. :-)

    As I was walking my dogs this morning, it occurred to me that there is one other BIG SUGGESTION that I wanted to make... This is the problem with doing stuff over a forum or email. It is so much harder than to be sitting in front of an issue.

    Before you do anything else, you should absolutely check the windings for shorts. You are not going to do your transistors any favors if there is a short there, which can result from either a damaged wire or a bad winding inside the servo. If you were to simply connect a working amplifier to a shorted winding (or cable), you'll likely just burn up that transistor block, and it may propagate back to the firing logic on the daughter board. So, the short check should be #1 on the list.

    Also... Most modern digital volt meters have a diode check mode, and the methods described in the last attachments I sent do not describe how to use that. Therefore, you might want to either buy a working transistor block, or simply remove the base board from the adjacent amplifier. That way you can do an A/B test. Get a reading on a good one, then do the same test on the bad amp. There will be two identical blocks, and both of them need to be checked. And don't forget to try both directions on the test leads. It isn't too hard, and this will give you a lot more confidence that there is nothing egregiously wrong with the transistor block. The biggest hassle is that there are probably 40 or 50 screws you'll have to remove/install so you'll be tempted to use an automated driver. That is fine, but be careful not to strip or cross thread when you are putting stuff back together.

    I sent you a private message that has my personal email address in it. If you shoot me an email, I'll send you the service manuals. Either that, or just do a search on the web; they are pretty easy to find.

  9. #9
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    Re: Mazak H 400

    I did check the windings on the motor and they seem ok. No shorts to ground. I haven't swapped the axis drives over yet though. I received your message and the files thank you. I did have them but slightly different version i think.

    Thanks again for your help
    Regards Bob

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    Re: Mazak H 400

    Transitioned to email... If there is a major development, we'll update the thread.

  11. #11
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    Re: Mazak H 400

    Just an update for anyone interested. I have tried a couple of things. I tried the spare board out of the QT18. Swapped the 2 eeproms and added the extra jumper. Machine doesn't find the drive at all. Put the old board back in and same problem as before. After a very short time alarms out on high amperage without even trying to move the axis. I disconnected the motor from the drive and tested voltage at the drive terminals to the motor and i'm getting between 60 and 100 volts when there shouldn't be any if the axis isn't moving. I'm guessing the board is the culprit. I don't know why it didn't recognise the spare drive at all. Now i need to find out what i need to do to use the dual drive out of the multiplex or the MR S11 out of the Quick turn
    Regards Bob

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    Re: Mazak H 400

    Did you set the rotary ID switch to the same position as the original S1 drive? And... Just to be clear here... I am not really sure what "spare board out of the QT18" means. Is this an S1, S11, or S12 board. As I recall, you said that the amplifier you were originally having problems with is an S1. If that is true, then you'll to put another S1 board on that base (and match the rotary ID switch). An S11 and S12 board shouldn't even fit on an S1 base.

    If you are trying to use a dual drive in the location originally serviced by a single drive, you will have several things you need to do. First off, the connections will obviously be different. Second, you'll need to be sure that the switches are setup properly. In this case, you'll have one switch that needs to match the S1 being replaced, and the other switch will have to be something "high". You almost certainly cannot leave it as it is right now because it will likely conflict with the ID of the second servo.

  13. #13
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    Re: Mazak H 400

    Thanks Alan for the reply. Do you mean the small blue rotary switch in about the middle of the board? If so no i didn't change that. I will try it again today. Yes they are both S1 boards. I haven't tried the S2 boards or drive yet as i'm not sure what the differences are besides having 2 lots of everything onboard. Would the S2 board work on the S1 drive? QT 18 is a lathe i have with S1 drive on X and S11 drive on Z axis.
    Regards Bob

  14. #14
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    Re: Mazak H 400

    It's working. When i tried the board off the quickturn i swapped the chips over and added the extra jumper. What i didn't do is turn the rotary sw position ( I didn't know what it was before) The axis drive selector. Tried it again and all working. Obviously was the old board causing the problem. Waiting for the rest of the caps to arrive and will change them and see what happens. If that doesn't work i have no idea where to look. I'm guessing it would probably be something on the hotter section of the board
    Regards Bob

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    Re: Mazak H 400

    Quote Originally Posted by sudsy View Post
    It's working. When i tried the board off the quickturn i swapped the chips over and added the extra jumper. What i didn't do is turn the rotary sw position ( I didn't know what it was before) The axis drive selector. Tried it again and all working. Obviously was the old board causing the problem. Waiting for the rest of the caps to arrive and will change them and see what happens. If that doesn't work i have no idea where to look. I'm guessing it would probably be something on the hotter section of the board
    Fantastic! I'm glad to hear it is working..... That long connector (known as an IDC header) is a common bus that just daisy chains from one drive to another. As such, the controller is configured with the ID of each device on the bus. Needless to say, the devices themselves have to have their ID set accordingly, hence the function of the blue rotary switch. :-)

    I can fix the S11 and S12 boards, but I've not really tried the S1 guys yet. I'm not really sure I'd say the issue is in the "hot" section, as you call it, though. It could also be in the sense side. It may *think* there is excessive current flowing when, in fact, there is none.

    Changing the caps out is a good idea. Be careful when desoldering that you don't damage the board, but these boards are pretty well made and have good copper traces. Also, before cleaning, do a good check with your eyes and nose. Sometimes you can detect a lot with the super sniffer or just by seeing signs of excessive heat. And, specific to the caps, you can see if there is electrolytic fluid that has leaked out of the caps, and that will give you a clue to give extra attention to those areas after cleaning the mess up. Electrolyte is corrosive and will eat up your board and traces. You do *not* want to leave it there, and you may need to jumper over damaged traces.

    You cannot put a two servo amplifier S12 on a one servo amplifier S11 base. An S12 base is actually physically larger than an S11, so it wouldn't even fit. Plus, the connections are in a different location. Now, the S2 and S1 (older generation) are a bit of a different story. I don't have an S2 so I can't really comment (I would be interested in some high resolution pictures if you could send them to my email address), BUT.... The S1 units I have all have tapped holes for a second transistor block. This makes me think that they probably made the base in two different variations. The S2 would have the extra components (although I'm not sure where the additional resistors would be located... off the top of my head, I don't think I saw space for those) and an additional inter-board connector for the interface. It would probably make sense to keep everything the same so they could reduce parts inventory costs and manufacturing costs. If this were all true, it *MIGHT* be possible to put an S2 control board on an S1 base BUT I would definitely want to check that one more. Frankly, a much safer route would be to swap the entire drive out.

    It would be interesting if you measured the voltage on the motor on your now working system to verify that you really don't have anything there. There are a few reasons I can think of why there might be some voltage there. I'm not positive that your conclusion was correct, although it certainly could be.

    Anyhow... awesome news! Glad it worked out!

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    Re: Mazak H 400

    I know we've discussed this separately, but for the benefit of anyone that might be lurking or finding this thread later:

    S1 - first generation, single servo motor drive. Has a single PCB control board
    S2 - first generation, DOUBLE servo motor drive. Haven't seen one myself so I can't comment too much, but I suspect it has a single PCB control board. *MIGHT* use the same base as the S1 (but would have extra components in the base)
    S11 - second generation, single servo motor drive. Has a circuit board in the base where all the components are attached. Has a single printed circuit control board that plugs into the base.
    S12 - second generation, DOUBLE servo motor drive. Has a circuit board in the base where all the components are attached. Has a main printed circuit control board that plugs into the base. Has an additional printed circuit board that plugs into the main control board; this additional board has the CPU, etc. None of these boards are used on the S11, and the base between the S11 and S12 are completely different (the S12 is physically larger).
    S13 - second generation, TRIPLE servo motor drive. Basically look at the information for the S12 and think "three." It is unknown if the CPU board is the same as the S12 CPU board, but nothing else is interchangeable.

    There is a third generation S11 (possibly S12 and S13) which has fewer parts and more custom Mitsubishi parts. These are less common and are the ones that, as of 2021, Mitsubishi was selling (for about 6000USD, I believe... cough cough... where is the AED!)

    The Sx and S1x drives are functionally the same, and you can replace an S1 with an S11, for instance. I have not heard of a case where the firmware complains about this. Note that whenever you are replacing an amplifier, you should match jumpers (this might be tricky if you are changing generations). Be sure that you also move over the brake resistor jumper, if present, at the very top of the amplifier, and the E-Stop (B) jumper at the bottom; both of these are on the terminal blocks.

    The amplifiers also may have an additional daughter board on the very top, into which the encoder may be plugged. Mitsubishi made many different versions of amplifiers that were "customized" through the use daughter boards. These can increase the resolution or add features such as absolute positioning. All of these capabilities will require different configurations in the control and may also require different equipment; therefore, you can't just say "it would be cool if I had XYZ and I see that board on eBay... I'll buy it and plug it in..." That won't work. Unless you really know what you are doing, you should stick with the OEM setup. The daughter boards seem to be compatible across different generations.

    All of this information is garnered from experimentation, observation, analysis, research (and a healthy dose of stupidity) from an amateur. Mitsubishi doesn't publish this info, by and large, so nobody can really be an "authorized" expert. I mention all this because you use any information provided here at your own risk and accept full responsibility for any damage to your equipment, environment, shop, as well as injury/death to yourself or others. This is a board about sharing ideas, and that is all I'm doing... What you do with those ideas is your own business. :-) Oh, back to death.... Be *VERY* aware that these drives have high voltage DC capacitors that remain charged well after the power has been removed. They can be quite dangerous! HIgh voltage AC and DC is also present on the main control board... Don't be lulled into thinking that only the base has the high voltage because that is categorically not true! Be safe, be smart, and stay alive.

  17. #17
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    Re: Mazak H 400

    Yes i know that the S1/2 boards are not interchangeable with the S11/12 drives. I was just going to swap the complete drive.
    The S2 has 2 full size boards on it plus the daughter board and the 2 sets of transistors and everything else is still in the same drive (fairly busy in there). I thought i may be able to use it as a single drive but will look into that later.
    The S11 that is in the QT18 was working next to the S1 no problem. Will have to have a good look at it and see what the difference is.

    Thanks again for your help
    Regards Bob

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    Re: Mazak H 400

    Well that didn't last long. After i got it going again was running properly no problems. Haven't run it for a couple of weeks. Fired it up yesterday and now i get error 17 Faulty board. Not sure why that would happen when it was fine when i shut it down last time i used it. Getting a bit frustrated now
    Regards Bob

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    Re: Mazak H 400

    Error 17 is a problem with the A/D converter. Frankly, that is *core* to the sense side of the CPU. Pretty much 80% of the stuff the CPU will need to monitor is in the analog world, and without an operational A/D converter, you cannot take the analog voltages into the digital world. Computers are implicitly digital, so, yeah... You are kind of hosed. I fixed this on an S11 and S12 board, but the S1 is a different design. Plus, it is way out of the realm of trying to walk anyone through it. I wouldn't even try, sorry.

    On a normal Mitsu control, there is a screen where you can see the load on servos and other information. If you have that on the Mazak, you'll likely see that the servo has a value that is railed to something unreasonable. That could at least give you some idea of what part of the system is messed up. There is only one A/D, but there are multiple things that feed to it.... Too bad you are in Australia.... Come visit us in the States! :-)

    Alan

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    Re: Mazak H 400

    Quote Originally Posted by MrMetric View Post
    Error 17 is a problem with the A/D converter. Frankly, that is *core* to the sense side of the CPU. Pretty much 80% of the stuff the CPU will need to monitor is in the analog world, and without an operational A/D converter, you cannot take the analog voltages into the digital world. Computers are implicitly digital, so, yeah... You are kind of hosed. I fixed this on an S11 and S12 board, but the S1 is a different design. Plus, it is way out of the realm of trying to walk anyone through it. I wouldn't even try, sorry.

    On a normal Mitsu control, there is a screen where you can see the load on servos and other information. If you have that on the Mazak, you'll likely see that the servo has a value that is railed to something unreasonable. That could at least give you some idea of what part of the system is messed up. There is only one A/D, but there are multiple things that feed to it.... Too bad you are in Australia.... Come visit us in the States! :-)

    Alan
    I don't understand why it would have been fine when i shut down and no good when i started up again. I don't want to spend on another board for the same thing to happen. I tested the motor for shorts and no problems there. I've replaced all the caps in the old board so will try that but i didn't find any bad ones so i don't think that was the problem unfortunately. Will have to try and find out more info on what is needed to use the S11 in place of the S1 or even one of the S2 drives.
    Regards Bob

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