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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    176

    New Centroid on Gantry router.

    I have a new 3 axis Centoid put on a lead screw gantry router. 4x4 Old Phoenix.
    I have gone thru the servo tuning. Used auto tune but it updates to high numbers. The servo runs violently.
    I tuned to waveforms to look good but when running short moves in XYZ on a job it bangs lead screw hard as if there is play in the lead screw nut. There is no backlash that I can measure.
    Relative to speeds on router on normal router I'm running slow. 100IPM in XY and 50 in Z.
    There doesn't appear to be any dampening on the short moves. I can run a large move point A to Point B at 350IPM and it stops on a dime.
    but when running planer moves in XZ or YZ and very short moves it's banging lead screw. The cut in material looks very choppy.
    Not like my Bridgeport, the XY axis have no load per say. With the belt off, I can spin the drive pulley by hand and X axis will coast a few inches without any effort under its own momentum.

    Any ideas?

    Rob

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    236

    Re: New Centroid on Gantry router.

    Rob,
    Hello. More information is needed.
    Ac or dc servos? what size servos?
    Overall turns ratio of the router?
    Please post a 'report.zip' file of the cnc control configuration. you can make one of these from the util menu.
    do you have an internet connection on the CNCPC?
    please include the g code program that exhibits the issue.
    -cnckeith

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    176
    Quote Originally Posted by cnckeith View Post
    Rob,
    Hello. More information is needed.
    Ac or dc servos? what size servos?
    Overall turns ratio of the router?
    Please post a 'report.zip' file of the cnc control configuration. you can make one of these from the util menu.
    do you have an internet connection on the CNCPC?
    please include the g code program that exhibits the issue.
    -cnckeith
    I'm not at my shop at moment. AC servo. 2:1 ratio.
    There are no errors. Just hard motion.
    I can get report.
    Here is a photo of the servo parms

    Rob

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    176

    Re: New Centroid on Gantry router.

    I forgot I had a report.
    See attached

    Rob
    Attached Files Attached Files

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    236

    Re: New Centroid on Gantry router.

    thanks..
    what size and type ac motors on each axis please?

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    236

    Re: New Centroid on Gantry router.

    the report file provided is from 3-22-17 have you made any changes since then?

    Quote Originally Posted by artracing View Post
    I forgot I had a report.
    See attached

    Rob

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    236

    Re: New Centroid on Gantry router.

    is this a new control? or a upgrade of an older control? just trying to figure out what drives, motors, controller you have.. got some photos?

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    176

    Re: New Centroid on Gantry router.

    No changes.
    oops, DC motors.

    I'll have to get the motor info later when I go to my shop.
    This machine had an old Centroid on it. Motors are still common today from what I remember

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    176

    Re: New Centroid on Gantry router.

    Brand new 3 axis Centroid. Motors original used with old Centroid. The router is old Phoenix. 4X4

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    236

    Re: New Centroid on Gantry router.

    ok.. are you using allin1dc? if so, does it have the 12 amp or 15 amp servo drive? (make a difference in tuning)
    servo motor info is critical to proper tuning when reusing old servos. so please post that information. photos of motors and data plate are great.
    how did you determine the base pid values currently being used?
    many old pheonix routers came with SEM DC servos. If that is what your machine has then the base PID values shown in the report file are incorrect.
    if you have a SEM 29 inlb servo with 12 amp Allin1dc servo drive then the base PID should be Kp=1 Ki=.00391, Kd=15 and limit= 32000 for each axis.
    then you can run autotune again with these proper motor matching base PID values.
    after that post a fresh report file and i'll offer advice on fine hand tuning of Ka and Accell.
    Please post the g code program you are running as well. so i can see what the vectors look like.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    176

    Re: New Centroid on Gantry router.

    Quote Originally Posted by cnckeith View Post
    ok.. are you using allin1dc? if so, does it have the 12 amp or 15 amp servo drive? (make a difference in tuning)
    servo motor info is critical to proper tuning when reusing old servos. so please post that information. photos of motors and data plate are great.
    how did you determine the base pid values currently being used?
    many old pheonix routers came with SEM DC servos. If that is what your machine has then the base PID values shown in the report file are incorrect.
    if you have a SEM 29 inlb servo with 12 amp Allin1dc servo drive then the base PID should be Kp=1 Ki=.00391, Kd=15 and limit= 32000 for each axis.
    then you can run autotune again with these proper motor matching base PID values.
    after that post a fresh report file and i'll offer advice on fine hand tuning of Ka and Accell.
    Please post the g code program you are running as well. so i can see what the vectors look like.
    The motors are SEM. Ill got to my shop now. Back in 15 minutes/
    PID were a generic starting point and seat of the pants.
    I am only using servo motor from original. Everything else was scrapped. It was never not running.

    Not sure what AMP i'll get it shortly

    Ro

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    176

    Re: New Centroid on Gantry router.

    Quote Originally Posted by cnckeith View Post
    ok.. are you using allin1dc? if so, does it have the 12 amp or 15 amp servo drive? (make a difference in tuning)
    servo motor info is critical to proper tuning when reusing old servos. so please post that information. photos of motors and data plate are great.
    how did you determine the base pid values currently being used?
    many old pheonix routers came with SEM DC servos. If that is what your machine has then the base PID values shown in the report file are incorrect.
    if you have a SEM 29 inlb servo with 12 amp Allin1dc servo drive then the base PID should be Kp=1 Ki=.00391, Kd=15 and limit= 32000 for each axis.
    then you can run autotune again with these proper motor matching base PID values.
    after that post a fresh report file and i'll offer advice on fine hand tuning of Ka and Accell.
    Please post the g code program you are running as well. so i can see what the vectors look like.
    Here is the code in problem area.
    I cant give all of it. Private contract

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    176
    Quote Originally Posted by cnckeith View Post
    ok.. are you using allin1dc? if so, does it have the 12 amp or 15 amp servo drive? (make a difference in tuning)
    servo motor info is critical to proper tuning when reusing old servos. so please post that information. photos of motors and data plate are great.
    how did you determine the base pid values currently being used?
    many old pheonix routers came with SEM DC servos. If that is what your machine has then the base PID values shown in the report file are incorrect.
    if you have a SEM 29 inlb servo with 12 amp Allin1dc servo drive then the base PID should be Kp=1 Ki=.00391, Kd=15 and limit= 32000 for each axis.
    then you can run autotune again with these proper motor matching base PID values.
    after that post a fresh report file and i'll offer advice on fine hand tuning of Ka and Accell.
    Please post the g code program you are running as well. so i can see what the vectors look like.
    First plate is Z and other is same motor X and Y

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    176

    Re: New Centroid on Gantry router.

    Current PID screen and the beast machine.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails IMG_0627.JPG   IMG_0628.JPG  

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    236

    Re: New Centroid on Gantry router.

    thanks.. see post below

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    236

    Re: New Centroid on Gantry router.

    ok.. thanks for the photos.. fyi...you do not have a "new" centroid. this is the legacy upgrade kit that allows you to use the old existing servo drive and plc.

    so to solve your issue. set the base PID parameters to

    Kp=1 Ki=.00391, Kd=15 and limit= 32000 for each axis. then rerun auto tune. and then post a fresh report so i can see the results and then i'll advise you on other tweaks to smooth things out.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    176
    Quote Originally Posted by cnckeith View Post
    ok.. thanks for the photos.. fyi...you do not have a "new" centroid. this is the legacy upgrade kit that allows you to use the old existing servo drive and plc.

    so to solve your issue. set the base PID parameters to

    Kp=1 Ki=.00391, Kd=15 and limit= 32000 for each axis. then rerun auto tune. and then post a fresh report so i can see the results and then i'll advise you on other tweaks to smooth things out.
    Will do. Thanks much.

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    236

    Re: New Centroid on Gantry router.

    and once you get base pid set in the ballpark..follow this video for final manual tuning.
    https://youtu.be/lDPyc7aYscU

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Posts
    176
    Quote Originally Posted by cnckeith View Post
    and once you get base pid set in the ballpark..follow this video for final manual tuning.
    https://youtu.be/lDPyc7aYscU
    All three axis are failing "idle to high and releasing power" after auto tune.
    I'll go into tuning again.
    Here is the PID current with your numbers and auto tune results

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    236

    Re: New Centroid on Gantry router.

    reduce kd probably end up around 2-4 for kd with such a light system. be careful when playing with kd as if you put too much or too little the system can go into oscillation so have your hand on the estop.

    if you can get a good internet connection to the cncpc then we can tune these motors for you remotely.

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