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  1. #1
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    Oiling the ER collet nut?

    Hello everybody,

    I suspect that sometimes the tool stays not perfectly vertical after I tightened it in my ER20 collet by using a standard collet nuts.

    I read somewhere that a defect of ER collets is that they can be slightly twisted when tightened by the nut because the friction that the nut itself apply on the upper part of it (especially when inserting a small diameter tool in the collet)
    This result in a small misalignment of the tool axis with respect of the spindle axis.

    I read somewhere also that somebody applies a minimal amount of oil to reduce this twisting force on the collet. Nevertheless, it is not clear to me where this oil should be applied.

    As I understand, I would apply a veil of oil with my finger over the zone depicted in the attached picture. But I could be wrong...
    Any clue?

  2. #2
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    Re: Oiling the ER collet nut?

    Hi,
    I never oil collets at all, in fact if I ever have any issues I clean them with alcohol thoroughly. I'm of the opinion that oil/grease cause more problems than it solves.
    I too use small tools, down to 0.2mm, but the shank of the tools is always 1/8th. If you are using tools with smaller diameter shanks then maybe you are correct, but I've never
    had a problem with runout using 1/8 shanked tools.

    Craig

  3. #3
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    Re: Oiling the ER collet nut?

    Are you snapping the collet into the closer nut before inserting the tool? Novice users often don't realize this is necessary if the tool is to sit straight. If that's not the problem, you can oil the threads of the closer nut lightly, but try not to get any in the collet, since you don't want the tool slipping around in there. This will help it grip better, but not hold it any straighter.
    Andrew Werby
    Website

  4. #4
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    Re: Oiling the ER collet nut?

    Hi,

    Are you snapping the collet into the closer nut before inserting the tool?
    Very good point, it can be hard to establish whether the collet has properly seated in the nut/snap ring combination, especially with small collets say ER16 and smaller.

    Craig

  5. #5
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    Re: Oiling the ER collet nut?

    @awerby
    Yes, I snap the tool inside the collect.
    I do not know the reason: but sometimes I get perfect vertical "walls" after a sping-cut, sometimes not. But the tool is the same... (usually a 3 or 4 mm dia in an ER20 collet).
    I'm investigating about the possible causes of lack of "perpendicularity".

  6. #6
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    Re: Oiling the ER collet nut?

    Hi,
    take the collet out completely and use a cotton bud to clean the inside of the taper. It's a classic cause of runout and variable runout at that.

    Craig

  7. #7
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    Re: Oiling the ER collet nut?

    Quote Originally Posted by joeavaerage View Post
    If you are using tools with smaller diameter shanks then maybe you are correct, but I've never
    had a problem with runout using 1/8 shanked tools.
    I'm using very often 2 or 3 or 4 mm dia on an ER20 collet.

    I was thinking that maybe I do something wrong when I tight the nut...
    You put a washer when you tight a bolt with a nut, but in the case of collet you tight the big nut directly against the upper surface of the collect. This sounds strange to me...

  8. #8
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    Re: Oiling the ER collet nut?

    @joeavaerage:
    Mmmmmmh... I will try that tomorrow. Thanks!

    In the meanwhile, a guy for Mary-Tool wrote:
    "Personally I use solid nuts. I apply a little oil on the collet nut internal thread and front 30deg angle. This alone makes a solid nut perform much better. Never apply any oil to the lean angle of the collet that mates the collet to the tool holder. Thats my 2 cents."
    https://www.cnczone.com/forum/thread...chucks.320892/

    He is crazy? No idea...
    What zone of the nut "front 30deg angle" is? I'm scraping my head... is the zone I depicted in my picture above?
    That zone is not pushed against the taper, so there is no way the collet will slip because of oil there (I think).

  9. #9
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    Re: Oiling the ER collet nut?

    Hi,
    no, I think his advice is very sound. A little bit of oil on the thread and leading taper would allow a greater clamping force for a given nut torque, a good thing.
    What I would NOT expect is a tool to be other than perfectly concentric irrespective of the oil.

    If you are have a problem with the tool tipping then either the collet is not properly fitted to the nut or, more likely, debris on the inside of the taper. I regularly clean the taper
    because on every occasion that I've ever had a problem it was the cause.

    Craig

  10. #10
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    Re: Oiling the ER collet nut?

    Tomorrow I will carefully degrease and clean my collet as well as the taper of the spindle. Then I will put a thin layer of oil with my finger on the top leading taper.
    I will report here if something changes.

  11. #11

    Re: Oiling the ER collet nut?

    solid collet nuts can cause binding which is why the more expensive bearing nuts are much more desirable . A trick to keeping everything aligned properly is to tighten some , then tap the collet nut from different sides a few times with a soft hammer before doing a final tightening

    by soft hammer I mean a brass or copper headed hammer , if you don't have one you can improvise

  12. #12
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    Re: Oiling the ER collet nut?

    Today a big day for my router.
    To solve the problem with my ER-collet I have done what below:


    1. I cleaned with alcohol the internal taper of the spindle (some brown dirty stuff has come out)
    2. I carefully cleaned the big collet nut (some minor brown stuff was there too - mybe rust)
    3. I olied the tapered part of the nut with fine oil for weapons
    4. I double-checked the backlash on X and Y axis --> all ok
    5. I double-checked the squareness of the spindle --> all ok
    6. I checked the run-out of my spindle axis --> all ok (0.003 mm, quite impressive for a cheap chinese 2.2 Kw spindle!)
    7. I carefully cleaned with alchol all of my ER-collets

    Then I tested the runout of some collect picked randomly with the dial indicator.
    Thanks to the oiled tapered part everything goes much better: the collets slide in position easily, and they sits well without trying to remain in an angled position. Fantastic! Why I haven't used this trick before?

    All was going fine (0.004-0.005 mm of runout) until... I picked the ER20 collet for 4mm dia tools.
    Bang!
    Runout between 0.07 and 0.11 mm!
    I tried different toolbit inserted into the collet, but the runout on the shank (just below the start of the flutes) was always very big. Damn!
    I cannot image the runout at the tip of the tool... : (

    Here my conclusion: I just bought a collet set with one collet badly manufactured.
    I know, I shouldn't expect something different when purchasing chinese stuff on ebay... : )

    I think this is the reason I was obtaining "pyramidal" stuff when milling alu with a 4mm tool.
    The parts was slightly smaller at the top and slightly larger at the bottom, well beyond the declared accuracy of my machine. This problem was driving me crazy.

    I think the defectiv collet has

    - big runout
    - not vertical axis

    Where I can buy a good quality metric ER-20 collet at reasonable price?

    (In the pictures: some moments of my day.)
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Photo1559s.jpg   Photo1553s.jpg   Photo1557s.jpg  

  13. #13
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    Re: Oiling the ER collet nut?

    hy gimpo the advice with oiling is ok, effect is less twist, but is a rare practice, as most don't use it

    try instead a bearing nut, so to avoid twist entirely, thus one less variable

    then clamp/unclamp the same shank a coupe of times, and check tir in front and far away from the collet; it does not matter if you will find small tir or big tir, but consistency : thus all small, or all big, but all within 0.005-0.010 for example; if you can not reach consistency, then try to repeat, by always having the collet inside the chuck at same phase/angle, and the nut to always clamp at same phase/angle; you can use a marker to draw a line, then try to re-aling this line each time you clamp/unclamp

    if consistency is not found, then you'll have to check the chuck and the collet; sometimes they are both ok, while the nut may be the problem

    collets with best repetition, are those with less groves, for H7/h7 play, that stick as close to the chuck as possible

    may be enough to use the o4 collet for a o3.9 shank, in order to ruin that collet

    All was going fine (0.004-0.005 mm of runout) until... I picked the ER20 collet for 4mm dia tools.
    Bang!
    you said it - bang

    I carefully cleaned with alchol all of my ER-collets
    if not used for long term, even if you clean them with alcohol, etc, keep them oiled, covered/wraped / kindly

    ps : in picture 1559s, is needed also a check on chuck face, and to have the guarantee that face and id are true each one in respect to the other; even if your dial shows no movement, still does not mean that chuck is ok ... obviosly, is better than seeing tir, but if you try to reach that extra-precision, then ... you got it, right ?
    Ladyhawke - My Delirium, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_bFO1SNRZg

  14. #14
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    Re: Oiling the ER collet nut?

    Thanks for the adivces.
    I will check the chuck-face for concentricity too (even if I do not know exaclty how to do that - shame on me!)

    I read that bearing nuts are prone to be rapidly ruined by debris. So they does not worth the money-investment (maybe).

    In any case, I think that I have to slowly substitute all the collets, buying new ones of higher quality (when my wife is not looking at the PC screen).
    Any indication about manufacturers will be greatly appreciated.

  15. #15
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    Re: Oiling the ER collet nut?

    Hi,
    RegoFix is a Swiss company that actually invented the ER collet system, absolutely beautifully made but really expensive. I have three ER16 collets that I use frequently and
    I bought RegoFix for those. The rest of the ER 16 collets are just el-cheapo Chinese. For the number of times I use them they are adequate.

    I was given a set of imperial Jones & Shipman ER25 collets which are nice. There were a few gaps and those I replaced with RegoFix. I also have bought 6 metric ER25 collets
    from Tecknics, really nice collets, not cheap, but not as bad as RegoFix either.

    Craig

  16. #16
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    Re: Oiling the ER collet nut?

    if issue is only with the o4 collet, while the rest seem fine, then replace it, no need to consider a hole new set

    checking the chuck and the nut, is relevant to do when you are sure that all your collets are ok, but almost none of them clamps right

    a new collet, is not a guarantee that is not a faulty collet, especially with all these low quality stuff

    I read that bearing nuts are prone to be rapidly ruined by debris. So they does not worth the money-investment (maybe).
    in the end, is how you take care of them

    collets are consumables, especially when they are switched a lot, because the 1st taper that makes contact with the nut, will start to show visible wear; this does not happen with a bearing nut

    Any indication about manufacturers will be greatly appreciated.
    i no longer have such wonders, as i can craft collets; but, if it matters, i use kintek
    Ladyhawke - My Delirium, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_bFO1SNRZg

  17. #17
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    Re: Oiling the ER collet nut?

    Rego-Fix, Teknics, Kintek.
    Thanks for the hints!

    In the meanwhile, I have found FAHRION, a 100% german manufacturer based near Stuttgart:
    https://www.fahrion.de/startpage.html

    Medium range ER20 collet with 6 segments @ 19.61 EUR VAT included. Not so pricey.
    https://tinyurl.com/2wdhxd48

    They have also ER20 collets with just 4 segments (H8), but they seems to be used with inner coolant (the price is prohibitive, 47.15 EUR + VAT).

  18. #18
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    Re: Oiling the ER collet nut?

    if you dig, you can find with 3 segments

    kintek is italian, if it matters ...
    Ladyhawke - My Delirium, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_bFO1SNRZg

  19. #19
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    Re: Oiling the ER collet nut?

    Hi,
    is a 5um collet which is as good as my RegoFix, more than adequate. Would get expensive if you had to buy a set.

    I often use very small diameter tools for making PCBs, 0.5mm endmills, 0.3mm drills etc. They all have 1/8th shanks. Low runout is very important with such small and fragile tools.
    For tools 1/8th or bigger 10um collets are OK and a bit cheaper.

    Craig

  20. #20
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    Re: Oiling the ER collet nut?

    It will be a long night...

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