584,802 active members*
5,071 visitors online*
Register for free
Login
IndustryArena Forum > MetalWorking Machines > Benchtop Machines > One shot oiler for BF20 milling machine
Page 1 of 3 123
Results 1 to 20 of 45
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    5

    One shot oiler for BF20 milling machine

    One of the first modifications that I want to make to my bf20 is to install a one shot oiler on it so that I can keep it properly lubricated and prevent it from wearing out prematurely.

    I've done some research and have become aware of the following one shot oiler parts suppliers which appear to cater for hobby machinists like me:


    Both sell one shot oiler parts and kits. However, while it appears that Arceuro only sell a kit for a lathe, one shot oiler shop has got a range of one shot oiler kits for various benchtop mills like the g0704 and wm16 which are similar to the bf20. The front page of the oiler shop website shows what appears to be some sort of g0704 clone with one of their kits installed on it. It looks to be a really neat and professional installation.

    Also, it looks like the oiler shop kits come with a detailed guide that explains how to install them etc.

    As I don't know anything about designing and installing one shot oilers, and don't particularly want to design one from scratch, I'm considering asking oiler shop if they could design a kit for my mill (their website states that they have a free kit design service). I'd imagine that it wouldn't be too difficult for them considering that they currently offer kits for other mills that are similar to mine.

    Before I contact them and put them to the trouble of designing a kit, I was wondering if anyone here has any experience with oiler shop kits that they would care to share?

    Thanks.

    Gofa

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    220

    Re: One shot oiler for BF20 milling machine

    A one-shot oiler is a pain in the ass. I would focus on replacing your spindle motor. That will be the first thing that fails on your machine.

    I did a one-shot oiler on my BF20. Here is a pic:



    Personally, I think it is the cleanest install I have seen on a BF20/G0704...but I am biased.

    I don't think you need to go buy a kit from someone. The parts are easy to get, just put some thought into it.

    In hind sight I would have gone with grease and a zerk fitting manifold. That way you do not have to worry about metering valves and it is easier/cheaper.

    Also you can use water proof grease and it will not get into your flood coolant as bad.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    14

    Re: One shot oiler for BF20 milling machine

    Hi gofa23, this is Chris Davidson. I’m an engineer with One-Shot Oiler Shop (given the nature of your post, which I'm replying to, I assume it’s okay for me to mention this).

    You’re definitely on the right track to want to install a one-shot oiler first. You could replace the motor at any time, however if you delay installing the oiler and use your machine, particularly for an extended period, you run the risk of causing significant wear to its slideways, drive screws, and drive screw nuts. Repairing such wear, if possible, would likely be a lot more expensive and time-consuming compared to purchasing and installing a new motor should the exiting motor happen to fail. To repair such wear, you or someone else would have to scrape in the slideways using specialised and expensive scraping tools. Also, you’d probably have to purchase and install replacement drive screws and drive screw nuts.

    I fully agree with gcofieldd’s comment that one-shot oilers are a pain, but only insofar as designing and installing them is concerned. This is particularly the case for these small machines where installation space for a one-shot oiler is at a premium. Even more so if you’ve never designed and installed one before.

    I think it’s important to mention that this is why we’ve developed our line of one-shot oiler parts kits, so that people like gofa23 who own a small machine, who don’t have any experience in designing and installing authentic one-shot oilers, and who want to install a properly engineered and authentic one-shot oiler can do so with a minimum of time and fuss, and, I might add, for a very reasonable price as far as authentic one-shot oiler systems go. The price is actually a few hundred dollars less than what you would pay if you bought all of the parts included in the kit individually and not as a kit. Importantly, in addition to all of the parts necessary to install a one-shot oil lubrication system, each one of our kits comes with a detailed installation, operation, and maintenance guide which explains everything you need to know in order to properly install, use and maintain the one-shot oiler system. (To give you an idea of how detailed the guide is, it has around 250 drawings and photos in it, and is around 300 pages long.)

    Using grease to lubricate machine tool slideways is a definite no-no. The reason being is that grease tends to collect dust, chips, etc. Once this happens, the grease acts like a crude lapping compound and will actually accelerate wear. Oil is definitely the way to go when it comes to lubricating machine tool slideways etc. as it tends to flush out foreign particles from between slideways, etc. and will prolong their useful life for much longer than grease.

    You shouldn’t use just any type of oil either. A suitable grade (e.g. ISO 68) of slideway oil, which is specifically formulated for use on machine tool slideways, should generally be used. Slideway oil contains special additives called tackifiers that help to keep the oil where it needs to be (i.e. on the slideways) as long as possible before it runs off and is lost for good. (In total loss oil lubrication, which is what we’re concerned with here, oil can’t be reused so you want to maximise the use you get out of it before it’s lost.) In addition to lubricating slideways, slideway oil is also quite suitable for lubricating lead screws and ball screws because it’s a relatively high-quality oil.
    Also, it’s best to use a slideway oil that contains little or no active sulphur (http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Read/28958/ep-additives-effects[/URL]). This is because active sulphur tends to bond to and chemically react with metals, particularly softer metals such as brass. (As it happens, various authentic one-shot oiler fittings are made from brass and are therefore not compatible with oils that contain active sulphur).

    As far as oil getting into flood coolant is concerned, as far as I’m aware there’s not much that can be done about this. Usually, the approach, particularly with cnc machines, is to remove this “tramp” oil from the flood coolant using some sort of oil skimmer (e.g. http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/O200). There are various types of oil skimmers, however one common type (such as the one linked to above) has a flexible and continuous belt that has one end inserted into a coolant reservoir. The other end is trained around a pulley that is in turn rotated by an electric motor. As the pulley is rotated it rotates the belt. Oil on the surface of the coolant in the reservoir clings to the belt as the belt is pulled through it. The oil clings to be belt until it reaches a scraper that forms part of the skimmer. The scraper scrapes the oil off the belt as it passes by, and the scraped oil is then diverted to a separate tank where it’s collected so that it can then eventually be disposed of in an appropriate manner.

    Gcofieldd, regarding your one-shot oiler, I suspect that you’d be more enthusiastic about one-shot oilers if you made a few tweaks to your system including those mentioned below.

    The first thing that struck me when I looked at your system is that the fittings you’ve used (which I understand you obtained from this supplier: Product Catalog | Beswick Engineering) don’t appear to be authentic one-shot oiler fittings. Assuming that the objective is to have a one-shot oiler system that operates correctly and reliably, it’s really important to use authentic one-shot oiler fittings and not pneumatic, hydraulic or other fittings that are not specifically designed for use in a one-shot oiler system.

    This deficiency is probably particularly problematic insofar as you’ve apparently used orifice restrictors of some description rather than authentic one-shot oiler meter units to meter out oil to the lubrication points (i.e. slideways, drive screw nuts) of your machine in the correct proportions. I suspect that using these orifice restrictors rather than meter units is the root cause for your apparent dissatisfaction with your one-shot oiler system.

    A meter unit is a specialised oil lubrication system part that has an orifice/hole that extends through it, and a check valve that prevents backflow of oil through the meter unit. The size of the orifice determines the rate at which oil can flow through the meter unit, i.e. the flow rate of the meter unit. Meter units come in various orifice sizes, and therefore various flow rates. For example, in the case of the meter units that we sell, they’re available with flow rates of 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. A meter unit that has a flow rate of 5 can output twice as much oil per unit time as a meter unit that has a flow rate of 4. A meter unit that has a flow rate of 4 can output twice as much oil per unit time as a meter unit that has a flow rate of 3. A meter unit that has a flow rate of 3 can output twice as much oil per unit time as a meter unit that has a flow rate of 2. A meter unit that has a flow rate of 2 can output twice as much oil per unit time as a meter unit that has a flow rate of 1.

    Each meter unit of an authentic one-shot oiler system is connected to a respective lubrication point of the machine that the system is installed on. It’s essential that the flow rate of a meter unit that is connected to a particular lubrication point is correct for the particular calculated oil requirements of that lubrication point. If a meter unit with an incorrect flow rate is connected to a lubrication point, the lubrication point will likely receive too much or too little oil, either of which can result in damage to the lubrication point. All of our kits have meter units that have properly selected flow rates for the lubrication points that they connect to. The process of properly selecting meter unit flow rates involves various calculations, including calculating the oil requirement of each lubrication point.

    Meter units are essential to a one-shot oiler system. If meter units are not used at all, the majority of the oil that is output by the one-shot oiler pump will go to the lubrication point(s) that present the least amount of resistance to the flow of oil. Therefore, each of those lubrication points will probably receive too much oil, while the other lubrication points will probably receive too little or no oil. Either too much or too little oil is bad.

    As an aside, we’ve noticed that instead of using meter units, some people have installed one-shot oiler systems that use manifolds that have multiple adjustable output ports that allow for the rate of oil flow through them to be adjusted/tuned. We don’t recommend using these for at least a couple of reasons. Firstly, while their ability to provide for adjustment sounds great in theory, in practice it’s a real pain to try to adjust/tune these so that each port has the correct flow rate for the lubrication point that its connected to. This problem only gets worse the more outlet ports there are to tune. Secondly, because the output flow rates can be adjusted, it’s far too easy to take them out of adjustment. If this happens and you’re not aware that it’s happened, it may be too late and the machine may be damaged by the time it’s realised what’s happened. In our opinion, it’s far better to use meter units because they provide sufficiently accurate flow rates and are basically an install and forget deal.

    Another issue with your lubrication system is in regards to the oil grooves you’ve machined into the slideways of your machine. Firstly, it appears that you’ve machined them using a ball end mill, which is incorrect. In fact, machining oil grooves with any cutter, such as a ball end mill, that leaves sharp edges is incorrect. This is because the sharp edges will function to scrape oil off the opposing surface, which is obviously undesirable as it will lead to accelerated wear of that surface. In other words, the presence of such oil grooves defeats the whole purpose of installing a one-shot oiler.

    Oil grooves should be cut using a purpose-made oil groove cutter like the ones that we sell that are specifically designed not to leave sharp edges, and to promote the formation of an oil wedge between the mating surfaces, which assists in maintaining a protective oil film between the two surfaces to prevent metal on metal contact.

    Also, it’s important that the oil groove cutter that’s used has the correct size for the width of the slideway surface that the cutter is being used to cut an oil groove in.

    Also, your lubrication system oil grooves appear to have too few transverse groove portions (i.e. the portions of the oil groove that are perpendicular to the direction of axis travel). Having the correct number (i.e. not too many, and not too few) of transverse oil groove portions is critical for proper oil distribution across the slideway surface.

    The installation, operation, and maintenance guides we include with our parts kits explains in great detail how to calculate the correct number of transverse grooves for a given slideway surface, and how to calculate the correct distance between adjacent transverse grooves as well as various other groove dimensions. It also provides examples of various suitable oil groove configurations and where they are best used.

    Another (potential) problem with your lubrication system resides in your choice of oil pump. The pump you’ve selected appears to be of a type that is designed to be used on larger machines and that can output 5 or 8 cc per cycle/pump of its handle. If it is, and the pump doesn’t allow for downwards adjustment of the output volume by a sufficient amount or at all, the pump is probably outputting far too much oil per cycle, and oil is therefore being wasted unnecessarily. According to our calculations, a smaller pump such as our SLR-3 manual pump outputs more than sufficient oil per cycle for these particular small machines. I suspect that if you installed a suitable pump and operated it correctly (more on this below), your concerns regarding the amount of oil finding its way into his coolant would perhaps lessen by at least some degree.

    There are also other issues with your system, but I think that the ones I’ve mentioned above clearly illustrate that there’s a lot more to designing and installing a one-shot oiler than just selecting some parts that seem like they will do the job, installing them, and then connecting them together with some tubing. There’s actually a formal design process and various calculations that must be performed in order to do it right. Plus, it takes a bit of imagination, forward thinking, and experience in order to design an optimal system. In that sense, it’s a bit of an art rather than a science.

    Additionally, as alluded to earlier, there’s actually a proper way in which to use a one-shot oiler that requires the oiler pump to be operated a certain number of times at particular intervals over a given period of time. This varies according to the machine and the lubrication system that’s installed on it, as well as the way in which the machine is being used. If the pump of a one-shot oiler system is not operated correctly, either too much or too little oil will be supplied to the lubrication points of the machine that the system is installed on. Again, too much or too little oil is bad. The documentation included with each one of our parts kits explains how to correctly operate the system that is installed from the parts included in the kit.

    To summarise, I fully agree with the sentiment expressed by gcofieldd that one-shot oilers are a pain, but only in terms of designing and installing them. However, assuming that you don’t want to wear out your presumably expensive machine tools prematurely, a one-shot oiler is definitely a necessity and not a luxury. (By the way, this also applies to hobby machine tools such as the bf20 which generally aren't supplied with a one-shot oiler. You’ll probably find that a reason why hobby machine tools generally don’t come with one-shot oilers installed as standard is more to do with price than with the incorrect notion that they’re not required.)

    I cringe when I see people using a machine tool that doesn’t have a one-shot oiler installed, or if it does have one installed, one that’s not properly designed and/or one that’s not being used correctly. I cringe even more if the machine tool in question is a cnc machine. In that case, the amount of wear experienced by the machine slideways, etc. as a result of inadequate lubrication must be terrible.

    Getting back to gofa23’s post, I can confirm that we’d be pleased to design (for no charge as part of our complimentary kit design service) a parts kit for your bf20, if you wish. The kit would be similar to the parts kit for the Weiss WMD20LV which is the machine depicted in one of the photographs on our website’s homepage. The flow rates of the meter units for the new kit would have to be specifically selected by us to suit your machine. Also, the documentation which is supplied with the kit would need to be tailored by us to suit your machine. If you’re interested, please contact us using the contact us page of the One-Shot Oiler Shop website so that we can get the ball rolling for you.

    Also, in response to the question at the end of your post, for what it’s worth, we’ve sold quite a few kits thus far and all of our customers have been very positive about them.

    Lastly, if anyone else has any questions regarding one-shot oiler systems that they’d like me to answer on the forum, feel free to pm me. I’ll do my best to answer them to the extent that I can.

    Cheers,
    Chris
    Lubrication Engineer

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Sep 2016
    Posts
    46

    Re: One shot oiler for BF20 milling machine

    Wow, what excellent information! Thanks for posting that!

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisDavidson View Post
    Getting back to gofa23’s post, I can confirm that we’d be pleased to design (for no charge as part of our complimentary kit design service) a parts kit for your bf20, if you wish.
    I'd be very interested in a kit. I have the usual pump that most people buy off eBay, but require the fittings/lines/manifold etc.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    220

    Re: One shot oiler for BF20 milling machine

    Chris Davidson,

    I appreciate you are vendor trying to sell your product, but I don’t like the way you are doing it.

    A one-shot oiler system is a nice to have. If you maintain the equipment properly you will not have an issue. If the motor or driver fails, you are not making any parts. I have had two motors fail and one drive fail. If you look around this forum, motor replacement is one of the number one topics for this type of mill.

    I would also not pay $581.11 for your kit. The brass fittings I used are better quality than the brass fittings you are selling with your kit and whether something is an “authentic one-shot oiler fitting” is subjective.

    The picture I posted is old and does not show the metering valves I have installed. I did not install them initially because they are pricy and I wanted to see if I could live without them, which I could have, but I am a bit of a perfectionist…comes with being a good engineer.

    Grease is commonly used on large VMCs to lubricate box ways and linear rails, so I am not sure what you are talking about. My preference from experience with this mill would be a lubrication system that uses grease with a couple of manifolds with zerk fittings (one for the column and one for the base). It is simpler and less expensive to implement—no metering valves required.

    As far as the pump I selected, well I just don’t push the handle down all the way; seems to work fine.

    Good luck with your business,

    Graham

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    14

    Re: One shot oiler for BF20 milling machine

    G’day, DubMFG. No worries and thank you for your positive feedback. I hope other forum members find the information just as helpful as you apparently have.

    May I ask what type of machine you have that you’re interested in acquiring a kit for?
    Lubrication Engineer

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    14

    Re: One shot oiler for BF20 milling machine

    Graham, thank you for your response to my previous post.

    You’ve made some interesting comments in your response which I consider necessitate a response from me.

    Firstly, you state:

    “I appreciate you are vendor trying to sell your product, but I don’t like the way you are doing it.”

    Graham, first of all I would note that gofa23 asked a legitimate question specifically about One-Shot Oiler Shop. Although he didn’t direct his question towards One-Shot Oiler Shop, I believe that as a private member of the forum (as opposed to a business member of the forum, which One-Shot Oiler Shop is) like yourself, I have every right to respond to it.

    I also believe that it was not only entirely appropriate but also commendable that I mentioned my connection with One-Shot Oiler Shop at the outset so that gofa23 and anyone else who cares to read my post could take this into account when reading it.

    Moreover, I believe that I had every right to make reference to One-Shot Oiler Shop parts kits, because gofa23 has explicitly expressed an interest in them. It was not as if gofa23 didn’t know anything about One-Shot Oiler Shop and I was trying to push One-Shot Oiler Shop products on to him out of the blue, which I would never do.

    So, if I’ve been upfront in declaring my connection with One-Shot Oiler Shop, and have only made reference to One-Shot Oiler Shop lubrication system parts kits because gofa23 has explicitly expressed an interest in them, what exactly is it that you don’t like?

    If you’re upset about my critique of your one-shot oiler system, I would note that gofa23 did not ask you to provide details of your one-shot oiler. You volunteered this information. In my book, if anyone volunteers information it’s entitled to be critiqued.

    My comments concerning your system were not meant as criticisms. They were and are meant as tips and suggestions which I thought that you (as someone who had expressed dissatisfaction with their one-shot oiler system) and others might find helpful. I note that DubMFG has expressed his appreciation of the information I provided in my previous post.

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I understand that the main purpose of this forum is to share tips and information (i.e. to help each other out), which is exactly what I was and am doing, and what I intend to continue to do.

    You then state:

    “A one-shot oiler system is a nice to have. If you maintain the equipment properly you will not have an issue. If the motor or driver fails, you are not making any parts. I have had two motors fail and one drive fail. If you look around this forum, motor replacement is one of the number one topics for this type of mill.”

    I most definitely and emphatically agree with you that a one-shot oiler is nice to have. In fact, it’s actually very nice to have. If someone has one on their machine, it will definitely assist them to maintain their equipment properly and they will not have an issue provided of course that they use their oiler correctly.

    What you say about motors may very well be correct. However, I don’t see what relevance it has to gofa23’s post which explicitly concerns one-shot oilers, and which does not mention or imply anything about motors.

    Next, you state:

    “I would also not pay $581.11 for your kit. The brass fittings I used are better quality than the brass fittings you are selling with your kit and whether something is an “authentic one-shot oiler fitting” is subjective.”

    I’ve interpreted the first part of this statement to mean that you believe that the brass fittings that One-Shot Oiler Shop sells are not as good a quality as the brass fittings that you’ve used on your lubrication system, and that because of this belief you would not pay the asking price for our kits.

    As regards quality, all I can say is that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the quality of the brass fittings sold by One-Shot Oiler Shop. They function correctly and reliably, and have a finish that is typical of authentic one-shot oiler brass fittings that are produced by the various prominent and respected manufacturers in this particular field. What more can one ask for?

    As for the price, considering what is included in our kits, it’s actually excellent value for money. The kits essentially include all of the parts that are required to install an authentic and professionally engineered one-shot oiler system that, when operated correctly, will meet the lubrication requirements of the machine that the kit has been developed for.

    Not only that, but the range and quantity of parts that are included in our kits are such that our customers have a broad range of installation options and configurations to choose from. This allows them to install a lubrication system on their machine in a manner that best suits their requirements and their machine.

    Furthermore, with each one of our kits, all of the relatively difficult engineering work has already been done by One-Shot Oiler Shop, including:
    - calculating the oil lubrication requirements of the machine that the kit has been designed for
    - selecting the meter unit flow rates for each lubrication point of the machine so that the lubrication requirements will be met,
    - calculating the correct operating cycle time of the lubrication system pump so that the pump can be operated correctly so as to ensure that each lubrication point of the machine is not under- or over-lubricated.

    Consequently, our customers don’t need to bother about doing this engineering work themselves. Basically, all they have to concern themselves with is:
    - installing the system;
    - using the system; and
    - maintaining the system.

    That’s it.

    As mentioned in my previous post, each kit comes with a detailed guide which contains around 250 drawings and photographs, and that explains in detail:
    - various possible configurations for the lubrication system that can be installed using parts from the kit;
    - various installation options and suggestions for the various parts included in the kit, including their pros and cons;
    - how to correctly calculate the various dimensions of the oil grooves that must be cut into the various slideway and gib surfaces, including the distance between the transverse portions of those oil grooves which are critical for properly distributing oil across those surfaces;
    - how to mill the oil grooves so that they have the correct profile so that they don’t scrape oil from the slideway surfaces that they oppose;
    - correct sizing of the oil passages that must be drilled into various parts of the machine;
    - how to cut, straighten, and bend the metal tubing that’s included in the kit using some simple and inexpensive hand tools;
    - how to correctly install the metal and nylon tubing which is included in the kit;
    - how to commission the lubrication system;
    - how to operate the system correctly to ensure that the lubrication requirements of the machine are met so that the machine is not under- or over-lubricated;
    - how to maintain the system; and
    - much, much more.

    The guide provides basically all of the information required to achieve a professional one-shot oiler installation in one convenient publication. One would otherwise have to spend a lot of time and effort hunting for this information elsewhere. In fact, a lot of the information is not even available anywhere else.

    If someone like gofa23, who apparently does not know much about one-shot oiler systems, wanted to install a professionally engineered one-shot oiler system on their machine, how much time and effort do you think they’d need to spend researching and then designing his system to achieve the end result that gofa23’s apparently after? I suspect that if they took the value of his time into account, the cost of just learning how to design a one-shot oiler system properly, designing his system (including doing the engineering work), and acquiring quality and authentic one-shot oiler parts for it, it would far exceed the paltry $581 One-Shot Oiler Shop is asking for its parts kits.

    As to the second part of your statement, i.e. ‘whether something is an “authentic one-shot oiler fitting” is subjective’, sure, some people might have cobbled together something that they consider to be a one-shot oiler system using nothing more than a penis pump, garden hose, and garden hose fittings, but it can’t seriously be said that they’re authentic one-shot oiler fittings.

    Authentic one-shot oiler fittings are just that, authentic. They’re designed for one purpose and one purpose only: to be used as part of a one-shot oiler, automatic/centralised lubrication system. End of story.

    I can assure you that the parts that are included in the One-Shot Oiler parts kits are authentic one-shot oiler parts. This is the whole point of One-Shot Oiler Shop: to provide our customers with authentic one-shot oiler lubrication system parts kits so that they can install authentic and properly engineered one-shot oiler systems on their machine tools. This is why customers come to One-Shot Oiler Shop. There’s nothing stopping them from doing what others have done and developing their own homebrew one-shot oiler, but they choose to come to One-Shot Oiler Shop instead.

    The next statement in your post is:

    “The picture I posted is old and does not show the metering valves I have installed. I did not install them initially because they are pricy and I wanted to see if I could live without them, which I could have, but I am a bit of a perfectionist…comes with being a good engineer.”

    Graham, when critiquing your lubrication system in my previous post, I primarily based my comments on the information provided in your first post, including the photograph you included with it. I was therefore not aware that you had replaced the orifice restrictors of your lubrication system with meter units. Naturally, if you’ve swapped out the restrictors for meter units, and have connected each lubrication point of your machine to a respective meter unit that has the correct flow rate, those earlier comments of mine are no longer applicable.

    At the end of the day, if you don’t want people like me critiquing out of date work in new posts, I would suggest that in future you post details of the updated work so that everyone is on the same page.

    By the way, judging by the quality of your bf20 cnc conversion, I can tell that you’re a good engineer and a perfectionist. I don’t dispute that at all.

    Your next comment reads:

    “Grease is commonly used on large VMCs to lubricate box ways and linear rails, so I am not sure what you are talking about. My preference from experience would be a lubrication system that uses grease with a couple of manifolds with zerk fittings (one for the column and one for the base). It is simpler and less expensive to implement—no metering valves required.”

    If that is the case, I suspect that the box ways and linear rails of those VMCs are well-protected to prevent against ingress of foreign particles. If they’re not, they should be.

    Even if grease is commonly used on large VMCs to lubricate box ways and linear rails, I’m not sure what relevance this has to a hobby milling machine such as the bf20 whose dovetail ways and at least some drive screws are not particularly well-protected against ingress of foreign particles, and which therefore shouldn’t be lubricated with grease.

    Also, I might add, just because something is being done a particular way doesn’t necessarily mean that what is being done is correct or that it's applicable to everything. One needs to look at things critically.

    “As far as the pump I selected, well I just don’t push the handle down all the way; seems to work fine.”

    If that’s the way you’re operating the pump, how do you know precisely how much oil is being delivered to the lubrication points of your machine each time you operate the pump, and that the lubrication requirements of your machine (which are usually defined in terms of a calculated number of cc’s of oil per hour) are actually being met and that your machine is not being under- or over-lubricated?

    A reason why manual one-shot oiler pumps have output volume ratings expressed in terms of cc’s of oil per cycle (where a cycle is defined as one full pump of the pump’s handle) is because it helps to take the guesswork out of ensuring that calculated machine lubrication requirements (i.e., X cc’s of oil per hour), which vary from machine to machine, are actually being met.

    As part of its detailed kit development process, One-Shot Oiler Shop carefully calculates the oil requirements of the machines that we develop kits for. We also calculate the number of minutes between each pump cycle that ensures machine lubrication requirements are met so that the machine is not under- or over-lubricated. We provide our kit customers with all of this information so that they have everything they need to ensure that they’re able to operate their installed lubrication systems in the correct manner and properly lubricate their machines.

    “Good luck with your business,”

    I will pass your message on. Thank you. Good luck with your machine and your engineering.

    Cheers,
    Chris
    Lubrication Engineer

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    5

    Re: One shot oiler for BF20 milling machine

    Chris, thanks so much for posting in my thread. Before I read your posts, I certainly had no idea that there is so much involved in designing, installing, and using a properly engineered one shot oiler. It certainly seems to me that you know what you’re talking about when it comes to one-shot oilers.

    I’m also really impressed with the oiler shop kits, and would like to buy one. However, like Graham, I must admit that I’m a little bit concerned about the price.

    To determine for myself if your kits are likely to represent good value for money, I’m in the process of doing some price analysis of your kit and part prices and the arceurotrade lubrication system part prices. I’ll post it here for everyone’s benefit once I complete it.

    Also, one thing that I’ve noticed with the oiler shop milling machine parts kits is that they include two pressure gauges. The photo on your website of one of your kits installed on a bf20 clone mill shows one gauge being mounted on the pump and the other on the head of the mill. Is there any particular reason why there are two pressure gauges? I can understand if there was only one pressure gauge, but to a neophyte like me it seems to be overkill to have two pressure gauges.

    Thanks.
    Gofa

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2012
    Posts
    220

    Re: One shot oiler for BF20 milling machine

    So here is what I used:

    5 right angle compression fittings
    14 straight compression fittings
    6 hex plugs
    4 check valves
    1 six outlet manifold
    1 four outlet manifold (I think a two outlet and a three outlet would have been better here: the two outlet (1/4 inch tube) to the six outlet on the base and the three outlet on the column)
    3 metering valves on the ball screws
    5 feet of 1/4 inch tubing
    25 feet of 1/8 inch tubing
    1 pump

    Total Cost $298.68 (shipping not included)

    You could definitely do it cheaper than I did, but I used some pricey brass fittings.

    One thing to remember is that after you buy all of the parts you still need to machine the oil grooves which will cost probably another $300.

    You don't need to be an engineer to do any of this. This forum is all about learning, DIY, and making stuff.

    At the end of the day, if you want a hassle free experience and you just want to get it done, go with Chris Davidson's product.

    If you don't mind doing a little reading and asking some questions, then do it yourself.

    Good luck,

    Graham

    Hopefully this does not elicit another dissertation from Chris.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    1186

    Re: One shot oiler for BF20 milling machine

    Not sure if it's just my tablet but your website has no pictures of installed kits? I am in the market for a system possibly for a new machine I'm putting together for my brother. But, I tend to agree with Graham that the price is pretty steep. I would say unless this is a 100% bolt on kit with templates and or machine drawings for a machinist to make the grooves etc, pre-bent lines and mounting hardware, to me that negates the purpose of a "kit", specifically if you're going to make it model specific. Simply offering a box of fittings for twice the money one can source them on their own may be a hard sell to the DIY'er if their isn't a significant "convenience factor". I like that there is a company offering support, I just question the total overall value in your offering as far as simplifying this upgrade.

    I also agree with Graham that the motor is by far the first upgrade that should be addressed on the G0704 variants. Without a motor and mounting method on standby, when the stocker goes out, you have no way of making conversion parts or parts of any kind, your just stuck paying to have someone make mounts for a new motor or buying a stock replacement that will blow. These machines are almost a decade old now and the issues are pretty well hashed out. Best time for lube system is during the CNC conversion, until then, the bottle supplied with the kit to oil the ways is more than capable of keeping the ways in good shape in manual machining mode.

    So as a recap, being a potential customer, the only way I'm ready to drop ~$600 on a lubrication kit is if it's going to be all inclusive and make installation a non event. Otherwise I am questioning why I'm spending two or three times the money for a "universal" type kit packaged under a model specific offering. These are in no way digs, I support the small business, just honest feedback from someone currently looking at the obstacles of a lubrication system. Heck I would even grab a few core castings and offer a machining service for platinum type offering. Now you are adding significant value and appeal to the guy with a single machine and no means of completing the conversion while its apart. That is one of the best concepts that Hoss implemented was overcoming the obstacles in having only hand tools to do the work in his plans. That value is why he has been successful for so long. Hopefully you can see the benefits listed here for your customers, because while I don't speak for everyone, being at that juncture again to do another system, these are the real issues I'm looking at tackling and the reasoning I would consider parting with that kind of cash.

    Sent from my QTAIR7 using Tapatalk

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    14

    Re: One shot oiler for BF20 milling machine

    When someone has only ever seen "one-shot oiler systems" installed on bf20-type machines that are comprised of cheap plastic pneumatic fittings and/or other parts that are just not designed/meant for use in an authentic one-shot oiler system, and they have therefore essentially been trained to erroneously believe that the parts for an authentic one-shot oiler lubrication system should only cost a few hundred dollars at most, it's no small wonder that they baulk when they see the actual price of an authentic and professionally engineered one-shot oiler system for the first time, even if the price of that system is a relative bargain.

    Although authentic one-shot oiler systems of the type that are installed on these types of milling machines are not that expensive compared to other types of lubrication systems, they are as a general rule more expensive than homebrew systems who's design and functionality are usually questionable at best and just plain wrong at worst. This is just a fact.

    The only other authentic and professionally engineered one-shot oiler parts kit that we're aware of for any type of milling machine is the Bijur #K1099 Bridgeport 1-Shot Lubricator Kit (Bijur #K1099 Bridgeport 1-Shot Lubricator Kit). Now, what is the cost of that kit you might ask? If you follow the link you'll see that it's currently US$673.29, or nearly US$100 more than what we're asking for our kit. (Oh, and by the way, if anyone out there still believes that whether something is an authentic one-shot oiler part is subjective, the existence of the bijur kit along with the one-shot oiler parts that are sold by the linked website should dispel that belief quite quickly. Also, if you doubt that One-Shot Oiler Shop is selling authentic one-shot oiler parts, just compare our parts with those on the linked website and you'll see the similarities.)

    Now, for that sort of money, what do you get? From what we've seen, you only get sufficient parts for installing a one-shot oiler system that has one specific configuration and extremely limited installation options. The kit doesn't provide parts for contingencies (e.g. variations between machines that may necessitate a change to the way in which the system is installed) or to allow the installer to exercise some discretion and/or creativity so that the system is installed in a manner that may better suit their machine and requirements.

    Moreover, the kit doesn't include filters, pressure gauges and other important parts that can make the difference between an okay system and a great system. In other words, the Bijur system is very bare bones.

    Additionally, as far as we know, the instructions provided with the Bijur kit are minimal. This is probably because there's only one installation configuration so there is no need to provide details of other configurations and installation options. It's probably also because Bridgeports generally have all of the necessary lubrication oil grooves and oil passages machined in the factory when they're made so it's usually only necessary to drill and tap a few mounting holes for a few components (e.g. the pump and junctions/junction bars). Consequently, there's no need for the instructions to explain how to correctly calculate oil groove dimensions, detail what an acceptable oil groove profile is, etc. In short, the instructions are nowhere near as detailed as the information provided in the guide included with each of our kits.

    Now, you may say that it's a Bijur kit. That's true, but if you compared our parts with the parts from the Bijur kit you would see that there is no discernable or actual difference in quality.

    If you're someone who's been having difficulty seeing the value in our kits, hopefully what I've written above is at least beginning to change that.

    If you're still fixated on only spending a few hundred dollars on a so-called "one-shot oiler system", all I can say is that our kits are not for you. However, I would just remind you of the old saying about the poor man having to pay twice (i.e. once for a cheap but inferior product, and then again to fix/replace the inferior product in order to address its problems).

    However, if you want to install an authentic and professionally engineered one-shot oiler system on your machine that works properly, and you want to know how to install, operate and maintain the system correctly, our kits will allow you to do this with a minimum of fuss.

    As for gofa23's question regarding why there are two pressure gauges, they're there so that the correct operation of the system can be monitored at a glance. When the system is operating correctly, the pressure indicated by the head-mounted pressure gauge must be within an acceptable range of the pressure indicated by the pump gauge. The guide explains more about this, including what the acceptable range is.

    lcvette, there should be a photo of an installed kit on the homepage of our website: https://www.oneshotoilershop.com
    Lubrication Engineer

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    205

    Re: One shot oiler for BF20 milling machine

    My saying is "You rarely get what you pay for", but lets hope ...

    Don

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    14

    Re: One shot oiler for BF20 milling machine

    I would add: "... especially if you cheap out."

    lcvette, by the way the guide which is included with the kts explains how to perform all of the machining that needs to be done as part of the one-shot oiler installation using the same machine on which the system is being installed. From what you said in your post, that would seem to be a significant convenience factor.
    Lubrication Engineer

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    5

    Re: One shot oiler for BF20 milling machine

    Chris, as I only have my mill, being able to install a lubrication system on it without having to buy any other machine tools or to pay someone else to do the machining is a big plus in my opinion and makes the one shot oiler shop kit much more attractive to me. Graham, thanks for posting all of the parts you used in your oiler which is very impressive looking. If it’s not too much trouble, could you please post a link to the individual product listing of each part you used in case I decide to build an oiler using the same parts as you. Also, could you please post photos showing all parts of your oiler as it’s currently installed on your machine with the meter units, etc. so that I can see exactly how you installed it. This will help me to determine what’s involved in installing one of these things. Chris has mentioned that all of the oiler shop kits are properly engineered and that they calculate oil requirements, pump size and cycle times, and select the flow rates of the meter units that they include in their kits to suit the particular lubrication requirements of each machine. I’ve had a quick look on the forum and have done some google searching as well, but have not been able to find any information on how to do all of this. I assume that as an engineer who obviously takes great pride in his work that you did all of these calculations when you designed your oiler. Therefore, could you please share: 1. how you calculated the oil requirements of your machine, and what the results of your calculations are for your bf20. 2. the procedure you used for selecting the flow rates of the meter units for your oiler, and what the meter unit flow rate for each lubrication point of your machine is. 3. how you calculated how often to operate your pump so that the different parts of your machine that your system lubricates receive the correct amount of oil and are not, as Chris says, under or over lubricated, and what the value you calculated is. 4. how you calculated the various dimensions of the oil grooves you’ve machined into your machine’s ways to make sure that they distribute the oil properly, and what the dimensions are. 5. how you determined that the pump you’re using is the correct size for your machine. If you haven’t done one or more of the calculations mentioned above, could you please explain why. Also, Chris mentioned the problem with using a ball mill or some other mill to cut the oil grooves is that they leave sharp edges which will scrape oil off the mating surface and lead to metal on metal contact. If you did not in fact cut your oil grooves with an oil groove cutter as Chris seems to think, could you explain how you addressed the problem of oil being scraped off. Sorry for all of the questions. I’m just trying to get a better understanding of how to go about designing and using a properly engineered oiler like yours. I'm still working on my price analysis of the oiler shop kits and parts compared to the arceuro parts. If I've got time, I might even include the supplier that sells the bridgeport kit in my analysis. This is turning out to be a really interesting thread. Thanks to everyone who's contributed so far. gofa

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    1186

    Re: One shot oiler for BF20 milling machine

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisDavidson View Post
    When someone has only ever seen "one-shot oiler systems" installed on bf20-type machines that are comprised of cheap plastic pneumatic fittings and/or other parts that are just not designed/meant for use in an authentic one-shot oiler system, and they have therefore essentially been trained to erroneously believe that the parts for an authentic one-shot oiler lubrication system should only cost a few hundred dollars at most, it's no small wonder that they baulk when they see the actual price of an authentic and professionally engineered one-shot oiler system for the first time, even if the price of that system is a relative bargain.

    Although authentic one-shot oiler systems of the type that are installed on these types of milling machines are not that expensive compared to other types of lubrication systems, they are as a general rule more expensive than homebrew systems who's design and functionality are usually questionable at best and just plain wrong at worst. This is just a fact.

    The only other authentic and professionally engineered one-shot oiler parts kit that we're aware of for any type of milling machine is the Bijur #K1099 Bridgeport 1-Shot Lubricator Kit (Bijur #K1099 Bridgeport 1-Shot Lubricator Kit). Now, what is the cost of that kit you might ask? If you follow the link you'll see that it's currently US$673.29, or nearly US$100 more than what we're asking for our kit. (Oh, and by the way, if anyone out there still believes that whether something is an authentic one-shot oiler part is subjective, the existence of the bijur kit along with the one-shot oiler parts that are sold by the linked website should dispel that belief quite quickly. Also, if you doubt that One-Shot Oiler Shop is selling authentic one-shot oiler parts, just compare our parts with those on the linked website and you'll see the similarities.)

    Now, for that sort of money, what do you get? From what we've seen, you only get sufficient parts for installing a one-shot oiler system that has one specific configuration and extremely limited installation options. The kit doesn't provide parts for contingencies (e.g. variations between machines that may necessitate a change to the way in which the system is installed) or to allow the installer to exercise some discretion and/or creativity so that the system is installed in a manner that may better suit their machine and requirements.

    Moreover, the kit doesn't include filters, pressure gauges and other important parts that can make the difference between an okay system and a great system. In other words, the Bijur system is very bare bones.

    Additionally, as far as we know, the instructions provided with the Bijur kit are minimal. This is probably because there's only one installation configuration so there is no need to provide details of other configurations and installation options. It's probably also because Bridgeports generally have all of the necessary lubrication oil grooves and oil passages machined in the factory when they're made so it's usually only necessary to drill and tap a few mounting holes for a few components (e.g. the pump and junctions/junction bars). Consequently, there's no need for the instructions to explain how to correctly calculate oil groove dimensions, detail what an acceptable oil groove profile is, etc. In short, the instructions are nowhere near as detailed as the information provided in the guide included with each of our kits.

    Now, you may say that it's a Bijur kit. That's true, but if you compared our parts with the parts from the Bijur kit you would see that there is no discernable or actual difference in quality.

    If you're someone who's been having difficulty seeing the value in our kits, hopefully what I've written above is at least beginning to change that.

    If you're still fixated on only spending a few hundred dollars on a so-called "one-shot oiler system", all I can say is that our kits are not for you. However, I would just remind you of the old saying about the poor man having to pay twice (i.e. once for a cheap but inferior product, and then again to fix/replace the inferior product in order to address its problems).

    However, if you want to install an authentic and professionally engineered one-shot oiler system on your machine that works properly, and you want to know how to install, operate and maintain the system correctly, our kits will allow you to do this with a minimum of fuss.

    As for gofa23's question regarding why there are two pressure gauges, they're there so that the correct operation of the system can be monitored at a glance. When the system is operating correctly, the pressure indicated by the head-mounted pressure gauge must be within an acceptable range of the pressure indicated by the pump gauge. The guide explains more about this, including what the acceptable range is.

    lcvette, there should be a photo of an installed kit on the homepage of our website: https://www.oneshotoilershop.com
    And yet a fittings kit that's authentic is going on a non authentic CNC machine. I mean at what point do you question a universal fitting kit that is 50%of the cost of the machine itself? Think I'll roll the dice with my questionable fittings and save several hundred bucks and have the same amount of work to perform. There is only so much science in delivering oil to a point in the machine and I'm not seeing the value of your kit at all and you seem to want to compare it to a system for a $14k machine.. think you need some "authentic" perspective...

    Sent from my QTAIR7 using Tapatalk

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Posts
    205

    Re: One shot oiler for BF20 milling machine

    I cut my oil grooves with an angle grinder and a piece of angle iron for a guide.

    Cheap !!

    Don

    - - - Updated - - -

    I cut my oil grooves with an angle grinder and a piece of angle iron for a guide.

    Cheap !!

    Don

    - - - Updated - - -

    I cut my oil grooves with an angle grinder and a piece of angle iron for a guide.

    Cheap !!

    Don

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    14

    Re: One shot oiler for BF20 milling machine

    Quote Originally Posted by lcvette View Post
    And yet a fittings kit that's authentic is going on a non authentic CNC machine. I mean at what point do you question a universal fitting kit that is 50%of the cost of the machine itself? Think I'll roll the dice with my questionable fittings and save several hundred bucks and have the same amount of work to perform. There is only so much science in delivering oil to a point in the machine and I'm not seeing the value of your kit at all and you seem to want to compare it to a system for a $14k machine.. think you need some "authentic" perspective...

    Sent from my QTAIR7 using Tapatalk
    Icvette, following that logic, why bother converting a bf20 or some clone like a g0704 to cnc when according to Hoss' website (cf. Shop Info) the cost to do so seems to be at least around 100% of the cost of the basic mill, plus all of the time and hassle that's involved? Why not just be done with it and buy a baby Tormach mill or some other relatively inexpensive off the shelf cnc machine instead of trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear?

    It would save a lot of time and hassle, and someone who does this would be up and running and making parts much, much faster than someone who's converting a manual machine to cnc. Also, I suspect that as a purpose-built machine, the baby Tormach is probably a lot more rigid etc. than a converted bf20 etc, and can therefore achieve better finishes etc. Plus, I assume it's got a lot of other features (Rulon/Turcite coated ways? etc.) that most of these converted machines just don't have.

    If you say it's a matter of cost, I'm not so sure that it is. I mean, look at Graham's machine and what he's done to it. That can't be cheap to do. Also, he must have spent a lot of his valuable time working on his machine to achieve what he's achieved which in my opinion is a generally awesome cnc milling machine.

    So, why are people like Graham prepared to spend the amount of time and the money that they evidently do converting a bf20, g0704, or whatever el cheapo manual machine they've got to cnc and adding all of the other bells and whistles that they do? I suspect that in many cases it has to do with a sense of pride and achievement, and wanting to do the best job possible. If you read through this thread and look at Graham's earlier posts you can clearly tell that he’s justly proud of his machine and his skills and knowledge, as anyone would be.

    I also think many people do it because they want to learn about cnc and want to do so in a practical manner by doing a cnc conversion.

    These are certainly some of the reasons why I enjoy the hobby.

    Following in this vein, One-Shot Oiler Shop is offering a new product that can assist people like me, Graham etc., who are admitted perfectionists, to achieve the high standards that we are after with our cnc conversions insofar as one-shot oilers are concerned. Is there anything wrong with that?

    As regards your comment about there being only so much science in delivering oil to a point in the machine, I could be mistaken, but it sounds to me that you've never heard of the science/engineering discipline of tribology. If you haven't, I'd encourage you to take the time to look into it. It might just change your perspective.
    Lubrication Engineer

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    14

    Re: One shot oiler for BF20 milling machine

    Ouch! Don! I can actually hear the screams of agony produced by your mating way surfaces as their steadily being destroyed! And I'm in Australia!

    Chris
    Lubrication Engineer

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    1186

    Re: One shot oiler for BF20 milling machine

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisDavidson View Post
    Icvette, following that logic, why bother converting a bf20 or some clone like a g0704 to cnc when according to Hoss' website (cf. Shop Info) the cost to do so seems to be at least around 100% of the cost of the basic mill, plus all of the time and hassle that's involved? Why not just be done with it and buy a baby Tormach mill or some other relatively inexpensive off the shelf cnc machine instead of trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear?

    It would save a lot of time and hassle, and someone who does this would be up and running and making parts much, much faster than someone who's converting a manual machine to cnc. Also, I suspect that as a purpose-built machine, the baby Tormach is probably a lot more rigid etc. than a converted bf20 etc, and can therefore achieve better finishes etc. Plus, I assume it's got a lot of other features (Rulon/Turcite coated ways? etc.) that most of these converted machines just don't have.

    If you say it's a matter of cost, I'm not so sure that it is. I mean, look at Graham's machine and what he's done to it. That can't be cheap to do. Also, he must have spent a lot of his valuable time working on his machine to achieve what he's achieved which in my opinion is a generally awesome cnc milling machine.

    So, why are people like Graham prepared to spend the amount of time and the money that they evidently do converting a bf20, g0704, or whatever el cheapo manual machine they've got to cnc and adding all of the other bells and whistles that they do? I suspect that in many cases it has to do with a sense of pride and achievement, and wanting to do the best job possible. If you read through this thread and look at Graham's earlier posts you can clearly tell that he’s justly proud of his machine and his skills and knowledge, as anyone would be.

    I also think many people do it because they want to learn about cnc and want to do so in a practical manner by doing a cnc conversion.

    These are certainly some of the reasons why I enjoy the hobby.

    Following in this vein, One-Shot Oiler Shop is offering a new product that can assist people like me, Graham etc., who are admitted perfectionists, to achieve the high standards that we are after with our cnc conversions insofar as one-shot oilers are concerned. Is there anything wrong with that?

    As regards your comment about there being only so much science in delivering oil to a point in the machine, I could be mistaken, but it sounds to me that you've never heard of the science/engineering discipline of tribology. If you haven't, I'd encourage you to take the time to look into it. It might just change your perspective.
    As you said, the customer you are trying to reach isn't likely going to shell out the kind of money for a fittings kit you are asking, they are likely frugal and or this is a hobby project not a machine build for production, or if it is, it will likely be used as a stepping stone to a bigger machine or real VMC. If they were overflowing cash... They likely wouldn't be converting a G0704.

    As to oiling a G0704... Really? I'm not saying you can't engineer or over engineer a G0704 lube system, clearly you can.. but in the end where is the actual data showing real world improvements as far as reduced wear, increased speed and efficiency, and overall machine performance as compared to a manually lubricated machine or diy lube system. You say the plastic fittings are junk or don't work, prove it, where is your comparison? Most of what you are preaching seems subjective at best and you're still not listening to the two potential customers you have in this thread.. both saying the biggest issue isn't fittings choice or requisition, but actual machining, line routing bending and lack of support for these issues. I would say 90% of the people using plastic push type lines do so for simplicity because they have little or no experience in line bending and coupling connections. The push to connect fittings and tube make that a non issue. Your product is going to be far more difficult to install and likely require additional costs in tools for line bending and waste in incorrectly bent lines and or botched connections or tube cuts.

    It's as if you are trying to convince everyone that if they don't buy your "authentic" product their machines are going to fall apart. I have been running my first converted G0704 with only manual lubrication applied by hand and squeeze bottle that came in the tool kit since day one. I apply lube prior to a days machining and maybe after lunch of I have a lot of work for it and it's been running this way very well for 6 years and it makes much nicer parts than the tormach examples I've seen and that is from both the 440 and 1100. I also push my machine pretty hard using 3/8" and 1/2" diameter tooling.

    As a side example, For what you're asking price is, you can convert the z axis to linear rails having a company machine the column and buy the rails and cars. That is the highest wear slide on the machine, and for a few bucks more use, self grease lubricating bearing cars from Hiwin. I'm just saying what you are offering isn't inline with the value of the product in my "opinion". Maybe others disagree, I hope so for your sake otherwise it will be a short lived business. But I am not a fan of scare tactics to get people to buy your product. If it's as great as you say it is, put the time and money in to produce hard data proving it. Otherwise it's all a matter of your opinion.

    Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Feb 2017
    Posts
    14

    Re: One shot oiler for BF20 milling machine

    Icvette, in your latest post you state:

    “As you said, the customer you are trying to reach isn't likely going to shell out the kind of money for a fittings kit you are asking, they are likely frugal and or this is a hobby project not a machine build for production, or if it is, it will likely be used as a stepping stone to a bigger machine or real VMC. If they were overflowing cash... They likely wouldn't be converting a G0704.”

    If you re-read the post of mine that you’re referring to, you will see that I didn’t say anything of the sort, cf. “If you say it's a matter of cost, I'm not so sure that it is.”

    Also, I did not say “You say the plastic fittings are junk or don't work”.

    I genuinely appreciate your comments and feedback, and that you’ve taken the time to post them on this forum for everybody’s benefit. However, I respectfully ask that you don’t misquote me. This is my livelihood which enables me to support my family. It’s not a game. I respect your right to express your opinion, but please don’t misrepresent the things that I’ve said. Thank you.

    Now, on to addressing the various points you’ve brought up.

    “As to oiling a G0704... Really? I'm not saying you can't engineer or over engineer a G0704 lube system, clearly you can.. but in the end where is the actual data showing real world improvements as far as reduced wear, increased speed and efficiency, and overall machine performance as compared to a manually lubricated machine or diy lube system. You say the plastic fittings are junk or don't work, prove it, where is your comparison? Most of what you are preaching seems subjective at best and you're still not listening to the two potential customers you have in this thread.. both saying the biggest issue isn't fittings choice or requisition, but actual machining, line routing bending and lack of support for these issues. I would say 90% of the people using plastic push type lines do so for simplicity because they have little or no experience in line bending and coupling connections. The push to connect fittings and tube make that a non issue. Your product is going to be far more difficult to install and likely require additional costs in tools for line bending and waste in incorrectly bent lines and or botched connections or tube cuts.”

    Firstly, if you’re implying in your opening comment that our lubrication systems are over engineered, this is not correct. They are properly engineered. There is a difference. The former means that more engineering than necessary has been performed. The latter means that the engineering has been done properly, and applies to the systems we design.

    Regarding providing “actual data showing real world improvements as far as reduced wear, increased speed and efficiency, and overall machine performance as compared to a manually lubricated machine or diy lube system”, I don’t believe that I’ve made any claims whatsoever regarding increased speed and efficiency, and overall machine performance. By all means, if I have, please point out to me where I have stated this.

    As far as providing data showing real world improvements as far as reduced wear is concerned, unfortunately I cannot lay claim to having developed the types of lubrication systems that One-Shot Oiler Shop sells. Nor can I lay claim to developing the particular methodologies and procedures that are required in order to properly design, install, and use such systems. Scientists, engineers and other assorted boffins who are much smarter and more creative than me are the ones who can lay claim to all that.

    Do you think that they would have developed these types of lubrication systems and parts as well as the particular methodologies and procedures that are required in order to properly design, install, and use them if they were not required and did not give optimal results as far as reduced wear and any other benefits are concerned? Do you think that they have not produced voluminous amounts of hard data that shows “real world improvements”?
    Given that the major lubrication companies around the world like Bijur, Graco, etc. sell huge quantities of these types of systems every single year, and that they use and recommend the same methodologies and procedures for designing, installing, and using them, do you think that they would continue to do so if there were no tangible benefits in terms of reduced wear etc. for their customers? These systems, methodologies, and procedures have been around for donkey’s years. If they didn’t work, I think it’s pretty reasonable to assume that Bijur et al. would have gone out of business long ago. Would you agree?

    By the way, I know what the answers to all of these questions are (except perhaps the last one or two). And, judging by your clearly intelligent questions, I bet that you’re smart enough that you can quickly figure out the correct answers for yourself without so much as breaking a sweat.

    In light of the above, do you truly still believe that it’s necessary for One-Shot Oiler Shop to spend its (very) finite resources proving something that is well-established and understood in the field of tribology? Don’t get me wrong, I understand and can sympathise with your concerns, and I’d love to give you the data that you’re asking for. However, we just can’t afford to devote our limited resources to doing something in order to prove something else that’s been well understood and accepted by lubrication professionals throughout the world for many, many years.

    Regarding your next comment: “Most of what you are preaching seems subjective at best”, please refer to my above comments as I believe that they’re also relevant to this comment.

    Your next comment is: “you're still not listening to the two potential customers you have in this thread.. both saying the biggest issue isn't fittings choice or requisition, but actual machining, line routing bending and lack of support for these issues. I would say 90% of the people using plastic push type lines do so for simplicity because they have little or no experience in line bending and coupling connections. The push to connect fittings and tube make that a non issue. Your product is going to be far more difficult to install and likely require additional costs in tools for line bending and waste in incorrectly bent lines and or botched connections or tube cuts.”

    Let’s consider machining first. Even if we offered this service (we currently don’t), how much do you think it would cost just for you to send the parts of your machine all of the way to us here in Australia and for us to ship the machined components all the way back to you in the States such that they are not damaged? Remember, in the case of a bf20 or clone, we’re talking about parts that weigh multiple tens of kilograms. I’m guessing that shipping alone would be hundreds of dollars.

    Then, let’s consider the time, equipment, consumables, labour, etc. that would be required in order to unpack, setup, machine, and re-pack the machine parts. From experience, I know that there are quite a few hours of work involved in just doing the machining. So, hundreds of more dollars.

    Moving on to line routing and bending. Although shipping costs would not be a problem, packaging would be because extreme care would need to be taken to ensure that the carefully and accurately bent tubing is not unintentionally squashed and ruined during shipping. Also, actually doing the bending etc. would not be cheap by any means.

    Also, regarding machining and line routing and bending in general, even if we did offer these services (and, again, we currently don’t), could you imagine what an absolute nightmare it would be for not only us but also our customers if we did this work? You can bet your bottom dollar that most customers would want their install done a particular way and that this would mean variations in the way that parts are machined and tubing is bent from customer to customer. Customers would not be satisfied with a one size fits all approach as regards machining and line bending.

    Given what I’ve stated above in relation to machining, line routing, and bending, do you think it would be economic for us to include these services in the price we are currently charging for our kits? I think it’s pretty clear that the answer is a resounding “no”. We would basically be working for free. I consider myself to be a generous person (and I sincerely hope that this comes through in my posts), but the kind of generous I would need to be to provide these services for no extra charge would mean that bills would go unpaid etc. How long do you reckon that such a business would last?

    However, if you and other customers were prepared to pay us the real cost of machining etc., sure, we’d be more than happy to do it. But, realistically, are you going to get some business in Australia of all places to do the machining etc. when I’m pretty sure that there are plenty of businesses in the US (where I understand from your profile you’re located) that could do it just as well and probably for much less.

    When you say “lack of support for these issues” in relation to machining, line bending etc. as mentioned in one of my earlier posts today, the guide included with our kits clearly explains in minute detail how to perform all of the machining on the same machine on which the system is being installed. It also gives other machining options which are probably more obvious.

    It also explains in detail exactly how to go about designing the oil grooves and calculating their various dimensions. The equations are all provided. It’s high school level algebra. You’re obviously an intelligent bloke, just like most other machinists. I couldn’t imagine that you would have the slightest difficulty in using the equations to work out the dimensions that you need. Even if you did, we’re only an email away and would be more than happy to answer any questions you might have. Having said that, and knowing the detail of the information provided in the guide, I feel pretty confident in saying that you probably wouldn’t have any such questions.

    As to line cutting, straightening, and bending, all that’s required are some cheap hand tools (many of which we sell) plus our bending tool with spring clamp which is also relatively inexpensive. From memory, there’s some 30 pages that are solely devoted to how to go about not only the relatively simple tasks of cutting and straightening the metal tubing, but also how to accurately bend it using nothing more than our bending tool with spring clamp, our protractor and ruler, and a pen. There are numerous diagrams and photos which demonstrate the process step by step.

    Incidentally, our tubing bender is the only one that we’re aware of that’s able to create bends that are greater than 90 degrees in 4 mm O.D. tubing. This is actually a really important capability to have when installing our lubrication systems on these small mills where serpentine type bends are often required.

    I forgot to mention that the guide also explains in great detail how to properly deburr the metal tubing using our inside and outside tubing deburrer (which is really only suitable for deburring the outside of the tubing), and our inside tubing and edge deburring tool which can be used to deburr the inside of the tubing and also for deburring the edges of mounting brackets, etc.

    As an aside, I should mention that the reason we use metal tubing for the majority of the fixed lines which interconnect lubrication system parts that don’t move relative to each other is because it actually allows for more flexibility and options when installing the kit. If you look at the photograph of the example installation on the homepage of our website, you can see the way we’ve used metal tubing to connect the meter units under the table so as not to limit movement of the table. You can also see how the head-mounted gauge is mounted. An of installation of this type would be much more difficult if not impossible to accomplish on these small mills if plastic tubing was used instead.

    I can fully appreciate that many people use plastic push type lines because of their simplicity and because that they have little or no experience in line bending and coupling connections. As mentioned above, the metal line bending is really not an issue with our kits. Provided that the instructions regarding bending metal lines are read with care and understood, and the bending techniques as explained in the guide are carefully followed, results such as those shown in the aforementioned photograph on our homepage can be achieved quite easily.

    Furthermore, there are three full pages in the guide that explain in graphic detail how to connect the tubing to the fittings using various compression fittings (i.e. compression sleeves, compression nuts, compression bushings), which are the industry standard. This information, like everything else in the guide is fully illustrated and is quite easy to follow.

    If a customer doesn’t feel comfortable with the aluminium tubing, they can always, if necessary, obtain some additional plastic tubing so that they can use it to interconnect the various fittings.

    I don’t necessarily agree with your assessment that our product is going to be far more difficult to install compared to using push type lines. As mentioned above, in some ways, it actually makes the installation easier and provides many more options.

    Sure, as mentioned above, some additional tools are required for installing the tubing (particularly the metal tubing), however they’re not particularly expensive. And, they’re obviously a one-off purchase and can be used on subsequent projects (I think you previously mentioned that you’ve already done at least one conversion and are looking at doing another for someone else). Also, as mentioned above, it’s not compulsory to use metal tubing anywhere. A customer can just use the plastic tubing if they wish. The guide provides all of the information and know how to install plastic tubing and metal tubing.

    Regarding waste of incorrectly bent metal lines and or botched connections or tube cuts, the guide explains how to go about measuring out and cutting the tubing needed to connect two fittings together with the bare minimum of waste. So, provided that due care is taken when making the necessary measurements, botched tube cuts should really not be an issue. Likewise, botched connections should not really be an issue because of the detailed explanation provided in the guide for reliably making the connections. As for incorrectly bent metal lines, we actually wasted quite a bit of tubing in the course of developing the accurate bending techniques provided in the guide so that our customers can keep any wastage to a bare minimum if they use those techniques.

    Moving on to the next paragraph in your post:

    “It's as if you are trying to convince everyone that if they don't buy your "authentic" product their machines are going to fall apart. I have been running my first converted G0704 with only manual lubrication applied by hand and squeeze bottle that came in the tool kit since day one. I apply lube prior to a days machining and maybe after lunch of I have a lot of work for it and it's been running this way very well for 6 years and it makes much nicer parts than the tormach examples I've seen and that is from both the 440 and 1100. I also push my machine pretty hard using 3/8" and 1/2" diameter tooling.”

    I’m not sure if your assessment that I’m trying to convince everyone that their machines will not fall apart if they don’t buy our product is a fair one. To illustrate why, I think it would be instructive for me to explain the correct design and operation of these lubrication systems so that, if you feel like it, you can then go back and re-read my posts on this thread and then re-evaluate your assessment. Please note that the following description may provide information that you already know and may be very familiar with, however I thought it best to go into this level of detail in case anyone who’s reading this is not knowledgeable about one-shot oilers. So, please don’t feel that I’m trying to be condescending – I’m not and if I come across that way it’s certainly not my intention to talk down to you or anyone else who might happen to read this.

    Okay, so basically, these are the facts in relation to these types of lubrication systems: each lubrication point (e.g. way, ball screw, etc.) of a machine has a particular lubrication requirement which is usually expressed in terms of cc’s of oil per hour. These are calculated values that depend on the nature of the lubrication point as well as certain attributes thereof.

    Anyway, the job of a one-shot oiler lubrication system is to ensure that each lubrication point that it lubricates receives the correct amount of oil so that the lubrication requirements of the lubrication point are met, i.e. so that the lubrication point is not under- lubricated (i.e. receives too little oil) or over-lubricated (i.e. receives too much oil). Under-lubrication is obviously bad because it results in increased friction and therefore wear between the parts that are being lubricated which can clearly shorten their useful life.

    Likewise, over-lubrication is also bad. One reason for this is that it wastes oil. Another reason is that it usually results in a bigger mess. If you’re running a recirculating coolant system, much of this unnecessary excess oil will probably find its way into your coolant reservoir and must be removed, e.g. using an oil skimmer as explained in one of my earlier posts. Also, for at least some bearings, too much oil can lead to excessive heat, wear, and premature failure.

    The lubrication points of most machines, including the bf20 mill and its clones, don’t have the same lubrication requirements. Some lubrication points require more than others, and vice versa. So, if this is the case and it’s bad to under-lubricate and over-lubricate a bearing point, how do we ensure that all of the bearing points of a machine, which have differing oil requirements, receive the correct amount of oil when they’re all connected to the outlet of a single pump? Well, that’s where meter units come in.

    As mentioned in one of my earlier posts in this thread, meter units are available with a range of flow rates. The flow rates determine the volume of oil that can flow through the meter unit per unit time. Some meter units have a high flow rate, other meter units have a low flow rate, while still other meter units have a flow rate that’s somewhere in between the two extremes. Meter units that have a high flow rate allow more oil to flow through them per unit time compared to meter units that have a low flow rate, and vice versa.

    Meter units have an inlet and an outlet so that oil can flow into the meter unit through its inlet and then out of the meter unit through its outlet. The inlet of each meter unit is connected to the outlet of the one-shot oiler systems pump. The outlet of each meter unit is connected to a respective one of the lubrication points that are lubricated by the one-shot oiler. In other words, each lubrication point is connected to the outlet of a different meter unit.

    Each meter unit has a flow rate that’s carefully selected to ensure that when the pump is operated the oil that’s output by the pump is proportioned amongst the various lubrication points in an appropriate manner by the meter units. In other words, so that the lubrication points that have a high lubrication requirement receive more oil than the lubrication points that have a lower lubrication requirement.

    To ensure that the lubrication requirement of each lubrication point is actually met (remember, each lubrication point has a lubrication requirement that is expressed in terms of cc’s of oil per hour), the pump must be operated in such a manner so that, over the course of an hour the amount/volume of oil that is delivered to each lubrication point of the machine is the same as the lubrication point’s calculated lubrication requirement. In this way, each lubrication point is not under-lubricated or over-lubricated. The machine is being lubricated in an optimal manner that will maximise its useful service life.

    If the lubrication requirements of a machine are not correctly determined, and a lubrication system is designed, installed, and operated based on these incorrect requirements, the machine will not be properly lubricated, i.e. at least some lubrication points will be under- or over-lubricated.

    If the lubrication requirements are correctly determined, but the lubrication system is not correctly designed (e.g. meter units with the wrong flow rates are selected), the machine will not be properly lubricated even if it’s operated correctly.

    If the lubrication requirements are correctly determined and meter units with the correct flow rates are selected but are not connected to the correct lubrication points, the machine will not be properly lubricated even if it’s operated correctly.

    Of course, it follows that if everything is done correctly, save for the operation of the system, the machine will not be properly lubricated.

    It is therefore essential that everything is done correctly, from working out the lubrication requirements, selecting the meter unit flow rates, installing the system, and operating the system. Otherwise lubrication points will likely be under- or over-lubricated, which will likely lead to problems down the track.

    It’s important to properly lubricate a machine regardless of whether it’s a manual machine or a cnc machine. A correctly designed, installed and operated one-shot oiler obviously makes it really easy to ensure that proper lubrication occurs. I don’t think there can be any argument about that.

    Now, let’s consider a cnc machine. Usually, such machines operate at a much faster rate and for much longer periods than manual machines. This is where I believe it’s very easy for anyone to appreciate that a correctly installed and operated one-shot oiler becomes absolutely essential in order to maximise the service life of the machine and get the best out of it.

    You say that you’ve been running your first converted g0704 with only manual lubrication applied by hand and squeeze bottle that came in the tool kit since day one. You also mention that you apply lube prior to a day’s machining and maybe after lunch or if you have a lot of work for it. Let’s now critically evaluate your lubrication program.

    Without giving too much away, the calculated hourly lubrication requirements of the ways and drive screws of a typical g0704 that’s been converted to cnc is a certain number (many) cc’s of oil per hour. All of this oil must be correctly proportioned amongst the various lubrication points of your machine so that the hourly lubrication requirements of those lubrication points are met and the lubrication points are not under- or over-lubricated. Also, it should not be delivered all at once, because the volume of oil we’re talking about is far too much for the machine to cope with/use all at once and a lot of it would just run off the slideways etc. and go to waste without actually having done anything useful like lubricating something. Therefore, several applications must be made per hour of lubrication such that the total amount that is applied over the course of an hour is equal to the hourly lubrication requirement of the machine.

    Given the above, which I can assure you is fact, do you still think you’ve been adequately lubricating your machine for the past 6 years, particularly in light of your statement that you push your machine pretty hard using 3/8" and 1/2" diameter tooling? I don’t. Not. At. All.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if you spotted the various ways and slides of your machine using a precision dovetail straight edge (i.e. the type used by scrapers/machine builders) and some bearing blue and discovered that they’re very (extremely?) badly worn. What do you think the effect of such wear would be on the accuracy of the parts that you’re machining? What do you think the effect of such wear would be on the useful service life of your mill? What do you think the effect will be on your hip pocket/bank account? Do you still think that I’m using “scare tactics” which implies that I’m some shonky, know-nothing salesman who’s using high pressure sales tactics to score a quick sale rather than an experienced engineer who knows exactly what he’s talking about and is trying his level best to help you and the various other turkeys in this forum who evidently have absolutely no idea how to lubricate their machine tools properly? Do you still think the One-Shot Oiler Shop lubrication kits don’t have any value? I think that I’ve made my point well enough, so I’ll be nice and stop there.

    Moving on to the last paragraph in your post which reads:

    “As a side example, For what you're asking price is, you can convert the z axis to linear rails having a company machine the column and buy the rails and cars. That is the highest wear slide on the machine, and for a few bucks more use, self grease lubricating bearing cars from Hiwin. I'm just saying what you are offering isn't inline with the value of the product in my "opinion". Maybe others disagree, I hope so for your sake otherwise it will be a short lived business. But I am not a fan of scare tactics to get people to buy your product. If it's as great as you say it is, put the time and money in to produce hard data proving it. Otherwise it's all a matter of your opinion.”

    I’ll be brief on this one. Firstly, if you lubricated your Z-axis properly you wouldn’t be talking utter nonsensical insanity about machining your column and putting linear rails on the z-axis. Why impair the rigidity of an already not particularly rigid machine by machining valuable cast iron off it’s already stick-like column so that you could put linear rails on it to avoid spending a few bucks installing a proper one-shot oiler? Mate, in case you haven't realised it yet, cast iron is your friend when it comes to machine tools. Generally speaking, the more of it the more rigid and therefore better the machine. Having said that, in the case of your particular machine, it probably doesn’t matter what you do to it at this point so go ahead.

    As for your “opinion”, well... I'm going to be nice and shutup now.

    Cheers,
    Chris

    Graham, are you still awake, buddy? I think I just set a record.
    Lubrication Engineer

Page 1 of 3 123

Similar Threads

  1. Preferred oil in one shot oiler?
    By bit pusher in forum Charter Oak Automation Support Forum
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 10-31-2013, 06:22 PM
  2. 1-Shot Oiler Mods Without 2nd Mill
    By Dave.Kellogg in forum Benchtop Machines
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 05-18-2013, 03:19 PM
  3. One shot oiler question
    By g29cc in forum Novakon
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 09-09-2010, 04:09 PM
  4. One-shot Oiler Question
    By rowbare in forum Tormach Personal CNC Mill
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 09-07-2010, 04:12 PM
  5. One shot oiler
    By Bubba in forum Uncategorised MetalWorking Machines
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 12-01-2009, 03:39 AM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •