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IndustryArena Forum > CNC Electronics > Servo Motors / Drives > Panasonic MSD AC Servo - anyone ever fitted/setup one manual driving me insane.HELP
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  1. #1
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    Panasonic MSD AC Servo - anyone ever fitted/setup one manual driving me insane.HELP

    OK so got 3 of these on a Denford Triac. Trying to get them running (nearly there) but the manual is driving me insane.
    In this picture (from the manual)... These are my first servos.

    I have asked on other forums but get the generic reply of servo on switch and away it goes. - it does not. Step/Dir configuration (control)

    https://www.cnczone.com/forums/attac...d=480254&stc=1


    So in the picture I assume it shows the starting state of the servo connections before the "Trial Run". (page 24 - 25 in the manual)

    It shows:
    "Servo ON" as OFF (open switch)
    "CL" as ON (closed switch)
    "INH" as OFF (open switch)
    [B]
    But then in the instructions it states - "Make a deviation counter clear (CL) signal to clear release (L -> H)."???? So I am assuming the "ON" state at the start is "LOW". I would have assumed "LOW" was OFF ?????

    Also when it says signal to clear release - I assume this is flip the switch???? Not flip it on and off to reset a counter????

    Do I have to run through this procedure everytime I start the servos??? Seems strange.

    Anyone please... the manual is driving me nuts.?

    Thanks
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails hiorlow.jpg  

  2. #2
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    Re: Panasonic MSD AC Servo - anyone ever fitted/setup one manual driving me insane.HE

    You need a 15-24v supply hooked up to the driver. Then a low on servo enable and step and direction inputs. These drivers really like to be driver with differential inputs for step and direction. The rest of the connects are not required depending on how paraders are programmed in the driver. I use Panasonic servo drivers and servos on all my machines

  3. #3
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    Re: Panasonic MSD AC Servo - anyone ever fitted/setup one manual driving me insane.HE

    Nemo,
    Let me make a few clarifications and one correction.

    The easiest way to drive these servo drivers is with differential inputs, meaning STEP+,STEP-, DIRECTION+, DIRECTION- Many people do not know how to make this happen, so let me provide a little more direction.

    You take the Step and Direction Signals and attach them to a differential driver, like the one below.

    https://www.cnc4pc.com/c72-different...ne-driver.html
    https://www.cnc4pc.com/pub/media/pro...AL_VER.1.2.pdf

    You need a 5V supply and Common for the input to this board as well, so it can power the devices on the module.

    The Panasonic driver needs a external power supply between 15V and 24V so it can power the optocouplers inside the driver. The wires that need to be attached to the driver are as follows:

    Step+
    Step-
    Direction+
    Direction-
    Com+ (+15V to +24V)
    Com- (the common side of the power supply)
    Servo enable needs to be tied to the +15-24V common
    Inhibit needs to be tied to the +15-24V common

    You can get these drivers to move with single ended inputs but I have found for some reason this is extremely difficult with these drivers. Differential inputs for Step and Direction just work perfect.

    You also need to adjust some parameters inside the driver. The driver needs to be put in position mode and the type of position inputs needs to be defined. You want it set to Step and Direction, not CW/CCW, or Quadrature.

    Let me know if you have questions.

    Russ

  4. #4
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    Re: Panasonic MSD AC Servo - anyone ever fitted/setup one manual driving me insane.HE

    Quote Originally Posted by CNCMAN172 View Post
    Nemo,
    Let me make a few clarifications and one correction.

    The easiest way to drive these servo drivers is with differential inputs, meaning STEP+,STEP-, DIRECTION+, DIRECTION- Many people do not know how to make this happen, so let me provide a little more direction.

    You take the Step and Direction Signals and attach them to a differential driver, like the one below.

    https://www.cnc4pc.com/c72-different...ne-driver.html
    https://www.cnc4pc.com/pub/media/pro...AL_VER.1.2.pdf

    You need a 5V supply and Common for the input to this board as well, so it can power the devices on the module.

    The Panasonic driver needs a external power supply between 15V and 24V so it can power the optocouplers inside the driver. The wires that need to be attached to the driver are as follows:

    Step+
    Step-
    Direction+
    Direction-
    Com+ (+15V to +24V)
    Com- (the common side of the power supply)
    Servo enable needs to be tied to the +15-24V common
    Inhibit needs to be tied to the +15-24V common

    You can get these drivers to move with single ended inputs but I have found for some reason this is extremely difficult with these drivers. Differential inputs for Step and Direction just work perfect.

    You also need to adjust some parameters inside the driver. The driver needs to be put in position mode and the type of position inputs needs to be defined. You want it set to Step and Direction, not CW/CCW, or Quadrature.

    Let me know if you have questions.

    Russ
    Hi Russ, many thanks for the reply.

    I am using an MB3 break out board here https://cncroom.com/wp-content/uploa...nual-E20R2.pdf

    Under the specifications it states "Differential line driver for motion signals allows for longer wiring with more resistance to interference when compared to TTL open end." I was told this would be OK??

    I have:
    Step+
    Step-
    Direction+
    Direction-
    Com+ (+24V) - separate power supply
    Com- (the common side of the power supply)
    Servo enable is tied to the +15-24V common (com-)
    Inhibit is tied to the +15-24V common (com-)

    I have mapped all the pins correctly in Mach4, I have setup many machines with steppers, but this is first go with Servo's
    Nothing moves, the drive buzzes a bit. No errors on the servo.

    Panasonic manual https://www.airgunownersclub.co.uk/d...s_manual_e.pdf

    I feel it is the parameters that are the problem, the drives were used on the miller with a AHHA/Artisan DOS based PC system previously, it didn't use a Step/Direction approach. I am now using a Mach4 PC system.

    Below are the original parameters (they were written in the nanual that came with the machine) - the only parameter I have changed is [2 9], Pulse Input Mode. It was set to [0] (Phase A Phase B). So I set it to [3] Pulse Row + Sign (PULS SIGN).

    I have been looking at Parameter [0 2] Selection of Control Mode - but honestly I don't really understand the options. Especially "H" and "L" of C-MODE.

    https://www.cnczone.com/forums/attac...d=480282&stc=1https://www.cnczone.com/forums/attac...d=480284&stc=1


    Any help would be really appreciated, if I cannot get these things working I'm not looking forward to forking out £1200 for new Delta servo's.

  5. #5
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    Re: Panasonic MSD AC Servo - anyone ever fitted/setup one manual driving me insane.HE

    Update - I have movement!!! Yay!

    It seems the Parameter [2 9] wasnt sticking... managed to get it set and now it moves.

    However if you would mind castig you eyes over the parameters to see if anything glaringly wrong jumps out at you... I would appreciate it.

    Regarding the Autotune functionalty is concerned... I assume you cannect the drive to the axis to do this?

    thanks again

  6. #6
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    Re: Panasonic MSD AC Servo - anyone ever fitted/setup one manual driving me insane.HE

    Great, that is a good combo with the ESS board and the breakout board. You can use auto tune but it is very important you put the axis in the middle of the axis travel before you run auto tune. I will review the parameters and tell you the critical ones. There are many parameters such as electronic gearing that control the resolution.

    I will send u an update in the morning

  7. #7
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    Re: Panasonic MSD AC Servo - anyone ever fitted/setup one manual driving me insane.HE

    Quote Originally Posted by CNCMAN172 View Post
    Great, that is a good combo with the ESS board and the breakout board. You can use auto tune but it is very important you put the axis in the middle of the axis travel before you run auto tune. I will review the parameters and tell you the critical ones. There are many parameters such as electronic gearing that control the resolution.

    I will send u an update in the morning
    Thank you - the X and Y axis run on a 1 to 2 ratio. 20 teeth on the servo spindle gear and 40 teeth on the axis gear.

    I'll get on with wiring the other two drives now i know I can actually get them to move

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    Re: Panasonic MSD AC Servo - anyone ever fitted/setup one manual driving me insane.HE

    The key parameters you need to check are as follows:

    Parameter 2 - selection of control mode
    set to 0, position pulse row control mode

    Parameter 0B - Numerator of pulse frequency division
    set to 2500

    Parameter 0C - Denominator of pulse frequency division
    set to 2500

    These two parameters control the number of pulses/revolution. The highest resolution is 2500/ppr, so initially you set it there.

    Parameter 0D - Pulse inversion
    set to 0, no inversion of inverted logic

    Parameter 29 - Pulse input mode
    set to 3, Plus & Sign (this sets it to take step and direction from Mach3)

    In mach4 you need to set you steps/unit

    2500/ppr * 2:1 reduction because of your gearing, so on X and Y your steps per unit should be 5000 p/unit

    Test your system tell it to go one unit either in MM or INCH mode and determine if it moves that distance exactly.

    Russ

  9. #9
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    Re: Panasonic MSD AC Servo - anyone ever fitted/setup one manual driving me insane.HE

    Quote Originally Posted by CNCMAN172 View Post
    The key parameters you need to check are as follows:

    Parameter 2 - selection of control mode
    set to 0, position pulse row control mode

    Parameter 0B - Numerator of pulse frequency division
    set to 2500

    Parameter 0C - Denominator of pulse frequency division
    set to 2500

    These two parameters control the number of pulses/revolution. The highest resolution is 2500/ppr, so initially you set it there.

    Parameter 0D - Pulse inversion
    set to 0, no inversion of inverted logic

    Parameter 29 - Pulse input mode
    set to 3, Plus & Sign (this sets it to take step and direction from Mach3)

    In mach4 you need to set you steps/unit

    2500/ppr * 2:1 reduction because of your gearing, so on X and Y your steps per unit should be 5000 p/unit

    Test your system tell it to go one unit either in MM or INCH mode and determine if it moves that distance exactly.

    Russ

    Hi Russ - again thanks for the post.

    All paramaters set as you suggested, but if I put 5000 steps per in the motor tuning on Mach4... for every millimeter I set the axis to move it moves 12.37mm. The lower the number I put in the nearer it gets to the 1mm. I got it down to 400 steps per before it was anywhere near. But it was very clunky.

    I have the feel some other setting is wrong. Perhaps something to do with the Numerator/Denominator of pulse frequency division? they were set to 10,000 at factory, but the installer set the latter to 1,000???

    Also the axis direction is reversed, is this a Mach4 thing or should I try and correct with Param [2 8] ????

    thanks again

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    Re: Panasonic MSD AC Servo - anyone ever fitted/setup one manual driving me insane.HE

    Nemo,
    You have to work out the math to calculate steps per UNIT. Sounds like you want to work in METRIC.

    Here is an example calculation for my Z axis which uses a 5mm ballscrew and the same type servos you have with 2500 pulses/rev

    5mm = .196845" 1"/.196845 = 5.08 turns/inch

    2500 P/R * 5.08 Turns/inch = 12,700 pulses/inch

    I think you are using a cog rail and motor with gear if I understood you correctly.

    The pulse frequency should not be your issue. You can run a few tests to determine what is happening, but my guess is your velocity and acceleration are probably wrong along with steps/unit.

    Run some experiments to make sure you are getting 2500 pulses/revolution from the servos.

    enter 2500 in steps/unit, and set the velocity to say 250 and acceleration to say 60. Then in your MDI window execute this command G1 X1 F50, which tells the machine to move the X axis one unit and a speed of 50.

    Before you do this put a market on the gear on the servo motor and see if the motor turns exactly one turn. So line up the mark on the gear to a line on a piece of tape of something and do that command and see if it moves exactly one revolution. At the end of the command you can give the command G1 x0 F50 and it will reverse and go back exactly one revolution.

    You need to figure out how many pulses it takes to move exactly one millimeter. That is what will ultimately go into Steps/Unit

    Russ

  11. #11
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    Re: Panasonic MSD AC Servo - anyone ever fitted/setup one manual driving me insane.HE

    Quote Originally Posted by CNCMAN172 View Post
    Nemo,
    You have to work out the math to calculate steps per UNIT. Sounds like you want to work in METRIC.

    Here is an example calculation for my Z axis which uses a 5mm ballscrew and the same type servos you have with 2500 pulses/rev

    5mm = .196845" 1"/.196845 = 5.08 turns/inch

    2500 P/R * 5.08 Turns/inch = 12,700 pulses/inch

    I think you are using a cog rail and motor with gear if I understood you correctly.

    The pulse frequency should not be your issue. You can run a few tests to determine what is happening, but my guess is your velocity and acceleration are probably wrong along with steps/unit.

    Run some experiments to make sure you are getting 2500 pulses/revolution from the servos.

    enter 2500 in steps/unit, and set the velocity to say 250 and acceleration to say 60. Then in your MDI window execute this command G1 X1 F50, which tells the machine to move the X axis one unit and a speed of 50.

    Before you do this put a market on the gear on the servo motor and see if the motor turns exactly one turn. So line up the mark on the gear to a line on a piece of tape of something and do that command and see if it moves exactly one revolution. At the end of the command you can give the command G1 x0 F50 and it will reverse and go back exactly one revolution.

    You need to figure out how many pulses it takes to move exactly one millimeter. That is what will ultimately go into Steps/Unit

    Russ
    You can't work out the steps like this unless you know Ballscrew pitch or rack & pinion drive it is using for each axis
    Mactec54

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    Re: Panasonic MSD AC Servo - anyone ever fitted/setup one manual driving me insane.HE

    Mactec54,

    I provided some simple examples show you have to use some simple math to calculate the steps per unit. He has a gear reduced rack and pinion if I understood him correctly.

    Mach actually has some built in functions that can calculate the steps per unit with a few moves and some measurements made by the user

  13. #13
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    Re: Panasonic MSD AC Servo - anyone ever fitted/setup one manual driving me insane.HE

    OK massive progress. No matter what I did the movement was 10x what it should have been. So I looked at Denominator of pulse frequency division Param [2 6]. The factory setting was 10,000 and for some reason the last user set it at 1,000. I reset this to 10,000 and the movement was almost correct.

    Then I remembered what average.joe said on the warp9td forum:
    "I'm going to assume that your servo has 10,000 counts/rev, and the electronic gearing
    has been set to 1:1, per your sheets then it takes 10,000 steps for the servo to do one rev.
    If the servo is directly hooked to a 5mm pitch ballscrew than the steps per mm are:

    10,000 / 5=2000. Thus, and I'm assumming metric units, ie mm here, then the value you would
    put in the Step/Unit of the motor tuning would be 2000
    "

    Then obviously double that for the mechanical gearing. = 4000 steps pers.

    This was nearly perfect, but ran through the Mach4 wizard and it worked out at 4002 steps per for that particular drive (to hit the correct measured distance in mach4).

    Thank you Mactec54 and CNCMAN172 for taking the time and effort to help me with this. It made all the difference.

    The machine now sings!!! smoth and responsive. Next autogain I guess

    Again - thank you.

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    Re: Panasonic MSD AC Servo - anyone ever fitted/setup one manual driving me insane.HE

    Nemo,
    Glad to hear you have it working. Year the electronic gearing always needs to be checked in the drivers and there are four parameters for that function in two different areas depending on the mode the drive is operated. The Mach4 wizard is pretty good but you can make finer adjustments but making many test positions the longer the better. Compare the distance traveled to what Mach4 says and make the fine adjustments until it is almost perfect everytime. There are many features in these drivers, but the bulk of them you will probably never use.

    Russ

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    Re: Panasonic MSD AC Servo - anyone ever fitted/setup one manual driving me insane.HE

    Quote Originally Posted by CNCMAN172 View Post
    Nemo,
    Glad to hear you have it working. Year the electronic gearing always needs to be checked in the drivers and there are four parameters for that function in two different areas depending on the mode the drive is operated. The Mach4 wizard is pretty good but you can make finer adjustments but making many test positions the longer the better. Compare the distance traveled to what Mach4 says and make the fine adjustments until it is almost perfect everytime. There are many features in these drivers, but the bulk of them you will probably never use.

    Russ
    Oh... could you tell me more about this please. I cannot seem to find anything in the manual. Perhaps the torque settings??

    Its a metalwork machine. Not interested in speed, highest torque preferred

    thanks

  16. #16
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    Re: Panasonic MSD AC Servo - anyone ever fitted/setup one manual driving me insane.HE

    Quote Originally Posted by nemo1966 View Post
    Oh... could you tell me more about this please. I cannot seem to find anything in the manual. Perhaps the torque settings??

    Its a metalwork machine. Not interested in speed, highest torque preferred

    thanks
    If your drive is set to your motor specs then there is no more you can do with the Torque your motor can only give what it is designed to give you, so all you can do is see if all your motor specs have been set
    Mactec54

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    Re: Panasonic MSD AC Servo - anyone ever fitted/setup one manual driving me insane.HE

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    If your drive is set to your motor specs then there is no more you can do with the Torque your motor can only give what it is designed to give you, so all you can do is see if all your motor specs have been set
    I don't understand... CNCnan said "Year the electronic gearing always needs to be checked in the drivers and there are four parameters for that function in two different areas depending on the mode the drive is operated"

    Then you say nothing can be done about torque, I thought that's what gearing did??? Give more torque, if not then why have electronic gearing?

    thanks again

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    Quote Originally Posted by nemo1966 View Post
    I don't understand... CNCnan said "Year the electronic gearing always needs to be checked in the drivers and there are four parameters for that function in two different areas depending on the mode the drive is operated"

    Then you say nothing can be done about torque, I thought that's what gearing did??? Give more torque, if not then why have electronic gearing?

    thanks again

    I understand it that electronic gearing is to adjust the Servo Drive encoder count to match with your available bob KHz pulse frequencies.
    Otherwise you could not really use a servo with many breakout boards out there that have lower KHz pulse rates.
    Does nothing for torque.

    Torque is mechanical gearing related. Smaller gear on motor, bigger gear on axis, increased torque, decreased top speed.
    Bigger on motor, smaller on axis, decreased torque, increased top speed.

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    Re: Panasonic MSD AC Servo - anyone ever fitted/setup one manual driving me insane.HE

    Nemo,
    As dasp has shared the electronic gear is to help on adjust the required number of pulses to turn the motor. This plays a big role in servos since some sources cannot provide a high enough pulse rate to get any velocity. Mechanical torque is achieved through mechanical gear reductions. One example would be a harmonic drive which is often attached to these Panasonic servos.

    Russ

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    Re: Panasonic MSD AC Servo - anyone ever fitted/setup one manual driving me insane.HE

    Pretty nice post. I just stumbled upon your weblog and wanted to say that I have really enjoyed browsing your blog posts. After all I’ll be subscribing to your feed and I hope you write again soon! https://orange-digital.co.uk

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