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  1. #1

    Pcnc 440 tooling advise

    Hi guys
    I am stepping up from a taig to a 440 I am going to buy some new endmills and stuff But I thought it might be best to ask before buying .

    So first question , is a half inch endmill to big for the 440 in aluminum? If it helps your answer I was thinking about one more as a finish tool then a rougher , bigger tool more rigid is my thinking .

    Next would be set screw tool holders ... yea nor nea on using them without a Weldon flat ?

    And lastly , what's the thing you thought was a good idea to have but turned out to be a total waste of money .

  2. #2
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    Re: Pcnc 440 tooling advise

    I have a 770 rather than a 440 and my answers are personal opinions and some may disagree but:
    I almost never use an endmill larger than 3/8 inch although a larger diameter is sometimes useful for the walls of deep pockets.

    Set screws don't grip properly into carbide so Weldon flats are almost essential (I use ER holders for most everything).

    I have previously commented that the SuperFly is a hazard due to imbalance; get a cheap Chinese face mill using SEHT inserts (same as the SuperFly) instead and save a few dollars.

    Another bad purchase was a Tormach drill chuck. Use ER collets for drills and get more Z-room plus better concentricity. Cheap Chinese collets are mostly significantly better than the drill chuck.

    You didn't ask about good choices but my ShearHog is is used on most projects as is my Haimer. Perhaps surprisingly, I've also found a diamond drag engraver useful.

  3. #3
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    Re: Pcnc 440 tooling advise

    Quote Originally Posted by kstrauss View Post
    I have a 770 rather than a 440 and my answers are personal opinions and some may disagree but:
    I almost never use an endmill larger than 3/8 inch although a larger diameter is sometimes useful for the walls of deep pockets.

    Set screws don't grip properly into carbide so Weldon flats are almost essential (I use ER holders for most everything).

    I have previously commented that the SuperFly is a hazard due to imbalance; get a cheap Chinese face mill using SEHT inserts (same as the SuperFly) instead and save a few dollars.

    Another bad purchase was a Tormach drill chuck. Use ER collets for drills and get more Z-room plus better concentricity. Cheap Chinese collets are mostly significantly better than the drill chuck.

    You didn't ask about good choices but my ShearHog is is used on most projects as is my Haimer. Perhaps surprisingly, I've also found a diamond drag engraver useful.
    Yes their drill chucks arent the best I agree. I am replacing mine with Jacobs 1/4" as I drill many various sizes of small holes, they arent as accurate as an er holder though, but I spot drill all my small holes and it hasnt been a problem for me other than an extra op.
    mike sr

  4. #4
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    Re: Pcnc 440 tooling advise

    I managed to find a couple of Albrecht keyless chucks at a flea market and they are vastly nicer than Tormach's chucks. Pounce if you get the chance!

  5. #5

    Re: Pcnc 440 tooling advise

    I'm not gonna comment on fly cutters , to easy to start arguments

    I didn't order a drill chuck , I already figured collet holding would be better with the limited z .
    I did order the 1/2" mini shear . I am mostly hoping that it'll work fairly decent for facing as well as roughing .
    Hoping to hold off on buying a face mill for awhile I don't have an endless budget .

    Also ordered 10 tool holders , 5 er20 and 5 er16 , I went with both sizes because I have some er16 collets already . And good er20 collets are cheaper to buy for some odd reason .
    I have a feeling both sizes will have their uses in the future anyways .

    I did go with a haimer over the passive probe , the probe is cheaper initially, but there's a huge price difference in how much a tip costs if you have a oopsy

  6. #6
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    Re: Pcnc 440 tooling advise

    I have the 3/4-inch shear hog and love it. I understand the money thing but a Chinese face mill with shank and some inserts should cost less that $100 and is great to prepare stock.

    The oopsy problem plagues me too! Take a look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwLydF4osc4 for a possible solution that I'm playing with or buy Keene's ITTP probe.

  7. #7
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    Re: Pcnc 440 tooling advise

    Quote Originally Posted by kstrauss View Post
    The oopsy problem plagues me too! Take a look at ... for a possible solution that I'm playing with or buy Keene's ITTP probe.
    But doesn't your mill automatically stop as soon as the probe trips unexpectedly (assuming it's plugged in of course)?
    Step

  8. #8
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    Re: Pcnc 440 tooling advise

    Correct. I have broken two probes due to jogging with it unplugged. Colour me forgetful!

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    Re: Pcnc 440 tooling advise

    Others have suggested the shear hog, my suggestion is tool holders for APxT1135 insert geometry. This is a Mitsubishi Carbide insert geometry. Their APGT1135 insert is GREAT in aluminum. To cut a different material you swap to a different insert in the same holder. Mitsubishi Carbide has a good selection of inserts for a bunch of different materials and some reasonable starting parameters. Thus far it's been the most versatile single insert geometry I've used.

    You can get holders for these inserts from several places. Tormach uses them in their face mill and some of their modular head cutters. Glacern sells them, and their variety of inserts here: https://glacern.com/em90_2. You can also find chamfer mills which make use of the less-used edges of the inserts.

    For any Tormach I wouldn't go too big on these tools. All of your solid carbide tools should be much smaller. I suggest ER16 holders and quality collets and collet nuts.

  10. #10
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    Re: Pcnc 440 tooling advise

    Half inch is fine for finish; take .010 cuts and it'll probably be sooper smooth. (Beware surface speed, though!)

    Set screw holders without the shank: I've lost two end mills doing that. Not doing it again. In general, I used to like the set screw ones, but now I'm using 100% ER20 and probably won't go back. If I'm to go forward, it would be to heat shrink tooling, but the TTS doesn't really warrant that :-)
    Also, make sure to get the tool setter stone block, and a good height gauge. (I used to use a table saw setter that wasn't that good; got a Starrett now.)

    I don't think anything I got was a waste of money, except possibly the set screw holders. (Got the full enclosure, power draw bar (which is pneumatic.)) The coolant pump died after two years and I needed to buy a new one, though. I also made a junction and pulled some air from the tool changer air line to have a solenoid controllable air nozzle next to the coolant.

  11. #11
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    Re: Pcnc 440 tooling advise

    Quote Originally Posted by burdickjp View Post
    Others have suggested the shear hog, my suggestion is tool holders for APxT1135 insert geometry. This is a Mitsubishi Carbide insert geometry. Their APGT1135 insert is GREAT in aluminum. To cut a different material you swap to a different insert in the same holder. Mitsubishi Carbide has a good selection of inserts for a bunch of different materials and some reasonable starting parameters. Thus far it's been the most versatile single insert geometry I've used.

    You can get holders for these inserts from several places. Tormach uses them in their face mill and some of their modular head cutters. Glacern sells them, and their variety of inserts here: https://glacern.com/em90_2. You can also find chamfer mills which make use of the less-used edges of the inserts.

    For any Tormach I wouldn't go too big on these tools. All of your solid carbide tools should be much smaller. I suggest ER16 holders and quality collets and collet nuts.
    If you want to experiment with APxT inserts there are some super cheap small holders available. See https://www.banggood.com/BAP300R-C12...p-1382936.html as one example. They are available in various diameters from 12-25 mm.or larger.

  12. #12

    Re: Pcnc 440 tooling advise

    I don't think I'm gonna be able to stretch my budget into any indexable tooling , I've been using carbide tool source for endmills to use in my taig mill , overall I've been really happy
    But I really want to try out a few premium endmills for finishing .
    It might sound odd but my biggest reason for making the jump to a 440 is for improved surface finishes , the tool change improvements come in a close second
    I've been extremely happy with the accuracy of the taig .

    There's also a long list of carp I need eating into my budget ,
    Tool setter ( going with one from edge technologies I think )
    A precision level , hate to spend this money but I do want surface finish and can't get it without proper tram .
    Parallels and all the little stuff add up quickly .

    Oh and I did get a power draw bar ... they should just make it standard equipment.

  13. #13
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    Re: Pcnc 440 tooling advise

    Quote Originally Posted by Yabbadabbadoo View Post
    .. A precision level , hate to spend this money but I do want surface finish and can't get it without proper tram ..
    Do you already have your 440? If not I'd suggest waiting on the level until you've evaluated the surface finish. I was going to refer to tramming but I believe that's the wrong term here. You should be just removing twist from the Y axis. This issue is much less significant for smaller tool diameters so if you don't want a fly cutter or lager index tooling then you may be perfectly happy out of the box.
    I'd recommend tools with corner radius for finishing. I get far superior results than with square cornered tools.
    Step

  14. #14

    Re: Pcnc 440 tooling advise

    Quote Originally Posted by Yabbadabbadoo View Post
    Hi guys
    I am stepping up from a taig to a 440 I am going to buy some new endmills and stuff But I thought it might be best to ask before buying .

    So first question , is a half inch endmill to big for the 440 in aluminum? If it helps your answer I was thinking about one more as a finish tool then a rougher , bigger tool more rigid is my thinking .

    Next would be set screw tool holders ... yea nor nea on using them without a Weldon flat ?

    And lastly , what's the thing you thought was a good idea to have but turned out to be a total waste of money .
    I've run 1/2" on mine but for the most part I run 3/8 just because it's better suited to my needs . If your only planning on using a 1/2" as a finisher then you'll have zero problem
    All my parts are faced at 6000 rpm with 2" face mills on the high belt setting , I'd go 10000 but the balancing isn't that great on those mills . With a 50% engagement they'll take a decent cut but too heavy a cut will stall them . I've never moved my belts to low so I can't say much to that except I'm guessing they'll take a good size cut with the 2" . I think you'll find they have plenty of torque for their size , especially in comparison to a taig .

    Side lock ---- My rule of thumb after yrs of working in big shops is to use side lock/set screw holders for any mill above 3/8 if it's being used for roughing .
    As far as the waste of money question goes , the computers !!! For what I paid for the computers I could have done much better myself . I think they are included now though .

    If I can make a few suggestions to help save you a few bucks then I'd say to get the mill with the chip pan option . My enclosures which may not be overly pretty were based on the drawings from the website , and it took 2 2x4 sheets of steel for each mill , plus a few chunks of plexi
    The mills fit on $200 grizzly bases with a few holes drilled into the base , dollar for dollar I wouldn't do it different . With extensions bolted to the base I added heavy duty casters
    I use 12v bilge pumps and 5 gallon buckets for coolant and I made a removable screened basket to separate the chips from the pump and coolant . That cost 30 vs 300 and some for each mill

  15. #15

    Re: Pcnc 440 tooling advise

    This might be my ignorance asking , but I thought corner radius tools was kind of the basic standard to buy unless you need the square corner ?

    My mill is going to be delivered sometime next week , I didn't get a stand or chip tray . Just couldn't afford either .
    The chip tray is first in line on my save up for list .

    Unfortunately I'll get to look at the mill for a few weeks , the control computer is on back order till 4-20 .

  16. #16
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    Re: Pcnc 440 tooling advise

    Quote Originally Posted by Yabbadabbadoo View Post
    This might be my ignorance asking , but I thought corner radius tools was kind of the basic standard to buy unless you need the square corner ?

    My mill is going to be delivered sometime next week , I didn't get a stand or chip tray . Just couldn't afford either .
    The chip tray is first in line on my save up for list .

    Unfortunately I'll get to look at the mill for a few weeks , the control computer is on back order till 4-20 .
    Corner radius tools are more durable but are usually more expensive. There is a bit more grinding in making a radius. The square end mills are perpetually on sale at decent prices from many sources. I try to stick with the ones that say made is USA. They tend to be of decent quality. If I buy an overseas brand I usually go with YG. My main roughing tool has a radius.

  17. #17
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    Re: Pcnc 440 tooling advise

    I've had great luck with the radius ZrN coated ones from Shars. My usual practice for the edges is to use a 3/8-inch one at full depth to remove the last 0.01 or so.

  18. #18

    Re: Pcnc 440 tooling advise

    I'm trying to stay away from the "budget" endmills .
    I tried a few with the taig , meh .

    Everything I've gotten from carbidetoolsource has been pretty darn good , they hold up well and leave a pretty good finish .
    But the couple tools I have from lakeshore carbide are definatly a step up or two in quality . I have a 3/16 endmill that just keeps going and going with no noticeable degradation of finish quality.
    I'd like to see if kenemetal realy is a step up from lakeshore someday .

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