Pros and Cons of X4, CNC Jr...

I am new to this forum, and new to Benchtop machines in general. I know everybody probably has an opinion on what brand does what, so, I would like hear some. I am looking possibly looking for a Benchtop mill, in between the 0-$5000 range, I am looking for something that has a little power to it when it comes to spindle, that could mill mild steel at least, and aluminum, cnc, and decent for accuracy. I guess to sum it up, I want something that has the power of an EZ-Trak knee mill, but without the 2200 lbs associated with it, and the price. I have been looking at a couple of possibilities, namely the Syil X4, and I ran across cncMaster's CNC Jr. Wondering if anybody has any opinions on these 2 mills?

Thanks.

Neither machine has power even close to a knee mill. You would need one of the better RF-45 clones (Lathemaster or IH) to begin to approach the rigidity and metal removal rates of a knee mill. In particular I would stay away from round column mills like the Jr.
Joe

You aren't going to find that rigidity new in your price range. The very weight that you don't want is the REASON the knee mill is so powerful.

The Novakon NM-135 is NOT a knee mill either, but is heavier duty than the first two. Nema 34 motors, 6K spindle, 3/4 inch ball screws. You could buy this for $3600, add $800 worth of Geckos and have a VERY capable mill for under 5K.

http://novakon.net/1.html

CR.

if you need affordable cnc i think x4 regulare it is best,only 3995$ include every thing include controller,no need buy some cnc parts and install,it is trouble,if any problem who take care of service?
that is why syil not make trunkey machine,if we sell it,i think also best price and cheap tha anyone course we are manufacture...

compare other model in this kind size 4995$ x4 plus still a good choice too.
more fun than any other models.
regards cncMaster's CNC Jr,they mostly convert cnc. by manual....

if you need more big cnc,take x6,here it is some pic of x6 plus wait for present.

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Originally Posted by Crevice Reamer

You aren't going to find that rigidity new in your price range. The very weight that you don't want is the REASON the knee mill is so powerful.

The Novakon NM-135 is NOT a knee mill either, but is heavier duty than the first two. Nema 34 motors, 6K spindle, 3/4 inch ball screws. You could buy this for $3600, add $800 worth of Geckos and have a VERY capable mill for under 5K.

http://novakon.net/1.html

CR.

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What are Geckos? Is that have something to do with 4th axis? Servos instead of steppers?

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Originally Posted by timberwolf5480

What are Geckos? Is that have something to do with 4th axis? Servos instead of steppers?

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Geckos is a brand of stepper driver.
but i think syil driver also prefect.we never receive complain yet of driver down.

Geckos are IMO, the best drivers made. They give more performance and reliability for the buck.

http://geckodrive.com/

CR.

Is the X6 in stock in the US? What is the wait time?

A few questions on Syils X4 series and Syil machines in general:

1) Will you be upgrading from the parallel port to USB in the future any time soon?

2)Does only the whole Z "head" move, can you manually move the Z axis, or even move what would be a quill on a manual machine?

3) Forgive my ignorance on this question, but all my experience lies with big CAT 40 VMCs, and HMCs. Is the collet/tool loaded into the spindle conventionally like a manual mill with a drawbar, or is it like a quick change type mechanism like VMC?

4) Is the MPG an accessory one could buy for the X4 standard? If so, how much?

5) The Mach3 software, is that included with a purchase of a new X4 or other Syil machine, or must that be bought separately?

I may have more questions in the future as I learn about these benchtop mills. I am very interested in getting one, the type of parts I would be making would be very small mostly aluminum parts, and sometimes steel sheet metal.

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Originally Posted by timberwolf5480

A few questions on Syils X4 series and Syil machines in general:

1) Will you be upgrading from the parallel port to USB in the future any time soon?
we are working on that,but still need time.parallel port still stable.also,it is need cooperate with artsoft too.

2)Does only the whole Z "head" move, can you manually move the Z axis, or even move what would be a quill on a manual machine?
yes only Z head move,drilling still need by software.

3) Forgive my ignorance on this question, but all my experience lies with big CAT 40 VMCs, and HMCs. Is the collet/tool loaded into the spindle conventionally like a manual mill with a drawbar, or is it like a quick change type mechanism like VMC?
working on it...but will add the cost.we think will present after 2 months.

4) Is the MPG an accessory one could buy for the X4 standard? If so, how much?
around 150$.more detail need ask Syilamerica.

5) The Mach3 software, is that included with a purchase of a new X4 or other Syil machine, or must that be bought separately?
we will have CD include the demo edtion of MACH3,but you need buy original from artsoftware.

I may have more questions in the future as I learn about these benchtop mills. I am very interested in getting one, the type of parts I would be making would be very small mostly aluminum parts, and sometimes steel sheet metal.

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anyway, X4 to make alumimum parts i think best choice.accord this cost...

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Originally Posted by cjdavis618

Is the X6 in stock in the US? What is the wait time?

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the production of x6 for US dealers,still working on that......

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Originally Posted by timberwolf5480

A few questions on Syils X4 series and Syil machines in general:

1) Will you be upgrading from the parallel port to USB in the future any time soon?

2)Does only the whole Z "head" move, can you manually move the Z axis, or even move what would be a quill on a manual machine?

3) Forgive my ignorance on this question, but all my experience lies with big CAT 40 VMCs, and HMCs. Is the collet/tool loaded into the spindle conventionally like a manual mill with a drawbar, or is it like a quick change type mechanism like VMC?

4) Is the MPG an accessory one could buy for the X4 standard? If so, how much?

5) The Mach3 software, is that included with a purchase of a new X4 or other Syil machine, or must that be bought separately?

I may have more questions in the future as I learn about these benchtop mills. I am very interested in getting one, the type of parts I would be making would be very small mostly aluminum parts, and sometimes steel sheet metal.

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2: the z moves on the column. there is no quill. any manual control is done through the software.

3: the spindle is R8. its the same as a bridgeport. drawbar pulls the collet or holder into the spindle. you can buy "quick change" tool holders from tormach and a few other places that make tool changes faster, but its still a manually tightened drawbar.

5: mach 3 is bought separate as far as the website seems to say. they may have bundles though.


the syil (novakon, smithy, sieg kx3, etc etc) will happily mill aluminium, steel, stainless, and tool steel. you just need to know where its limits are for speeds and feeds. the spindles are actually nearly as powerful as a basic bridgeport, but they have nowhere near the rigidity, so you will find you need to take lighter cuts at the fastest speed you can get away with. you also wont realisically be able to swing big face mills, even though the machine theoretically has the power. i think 2" is the max recomended, and by many accounts its a bit "optimistic" for practical work in metal.

just to add on the face mill thing i have a 3 inserts 2 inchs facemill and the mill as no problem running it at 0.020'' doc with a feed of 10''/min in t6 aluminium

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Originally Posted by ataxy

just to add on the face mill thing i have a 3 inserts 2 inchs facemill and the mill as no problem running it at 0.020'' doc with a feed of 10''/min in t6 aluminium

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I can do .030 on my SX3 running a 3 insert face mill that is 3". I run it at about 1500rpm and 2-5ipm though.

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Originally Posted by cjdavis618

I can do .030 on my SX3 running a 3 insert face mill that is 3". I run it at about 1500rpm and 2-5ipm though.

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i can do 0.04 but the nicest finnish i get at 0.02 i guess the mill is just not rigid enough but i guess from your number the its pretty even capacity wise for the machine

Yeah same here. I am using the inserts for AL also. I wouldn't dare do more than .005 in steel though.

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Originally Posted by ataxy

i can do 0.04 but the nicest finnish i get at 0.02 i guess the mill is just not rigid enough but i guess from your number the its pretty even capacity wise for the machine

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ah, good to know. ive read some other people saying that that it would bog down the machines. likewise trying to drill 1" holes. perhaps those people just didnt have it set up right... ive heard lots of stories of what my little machine "cant" do which arent true as well.

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Originally Posted by ihavenofish

ah, good to know. ive read some other people saying that that it would bog down the machines. likewise trying to drill 1" holes. perhaps those people just didnt have it set up right... ive heard lots of stories of what my little machine "cant" do which arent true as well.

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Exactly it really depends on the setup, tool and programming mechanicaly wize the machine i think as more power then its frame can manage. The same torque but on a slightly stouter frame mostly in the column and a slighly better finish on the machining and fitting of its dovetail would really mean business the problem is not really the machine itself but the standard that are applyed into making them, no hard felling syil i know you try to do your best, and its not only syil but probably the same with other brand of similar benchtop cnc.

this is what i think would vastly improve the machine structure while kepping the size in the volume of the machine

column wall thicker by at least .125"
wider column base by at least 2" with little triangular support at the base

on the componnent side the speed range could be better more like 100 to 5000 or 6000 then the current 200\300 to 3300\3500

but really if they can just start by pushing on the crafstmanship of the machine that would allready be alot i would be happy to show them were...

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Originally Posted by ataxy

Exactly it really depends on the setup, tool and programming mechanicaly wize the machine i think as more power then its frame can manage. The same torque but on a slightly stouter frame mostly in the column and a slighly better finish on the machining and fitting of its dovetail would really mean business the problem is not really the machine itself but the standard that are applyed into making them, no hard felling syil i know you try to do your best, and its not only syil but probably the same with other brand of similar benchtop cnc.

this is what i think would vastly improve the machine structure while kepping the size in the volume of the machine

column wall thicker by at least .125"
wider column base by at least 2" with little triangular support at the base

on the componnent side the speed range could be better more like 100 to 5000 or 6000 then the current 200\300 to 3300\3500

but really if they can just start by pushing on the crafstmanship of the machine that would allready be alot i would be happy to show them were...

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i had made a solidworks model the the kx1 column and did some fea testing with the notion of putting on a brace or something to make the thing a little stiffer.

as it turns out, making the column thicker and wider wouldnt make a ton of difference on its own. its the mouning at the base where all the deflection is. if they revamped the way that was done youd have 1/3 the deflection on the top of the z travel. not that theres a ton of deflection in the first place, but less flex = less chatter = better finish on heavier cuts.

i dont know if the kx3/x4 is done similar, havent seen one stripped down. but im sure theres some easy ways to make it stiffer without making it even heavier or more expensive.

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Originally Posted by ihavenofish

i dont know if the kx3/x4 is done similar, havent seen one stripped down. but im sure theres some easy ways to make it stiffer without making it even heavier or more expensive.

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for sure