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Hi all,
This would be the first time that I am setting up my DS30 SSY using both spindles. I have done a few jobs on the left spindle. I'm having an issue trying to figure out how to program the right spindle so I can do some boring and turning nothing real hard. It has to do with the location of the B-axis at home position in correlation to where you can work on the parts with tooling from the turret. A program example would be greatly appreciated.
Has your issue been resolved?
You basically position the B wherever you want and touch your tools from there. The B must be positioned in that same spot every time.
Why does Haas always make things harder than they have to. On Okumas you can set the z zero for the sub anywhere in it's travel. You can then machine on the sub with it anywhere in it's travel, the machine takes into account where the sub is positioned and automatically adjusts. The programs are the same for the main and sub on an okuma, you just specify g140 or g141 to tell the machine which spindle to work on. The same handed tools even work on either spindle. The sub spins the opposite direction as the main when an M3 is called and the tool is flipped over. Couldn't get any easier in my opinion.
I believe that Haas makes things simpler and does not over complicate things.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edster
This is the same on a Haas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edster
So, if you want to adjust your part length, you can't? The machine decides what is best for you and does not just follow simple G code? This sounds like more problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edster
Just specify G14 on the Haas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edster
Same on every machine tool.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edster
Same on every machine tool.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edster
The subspindle axis is called w on okuma. The w axis can be anywhere in its travel when you set the z zero for the sub. You can then move the w anywhere in its travel and the machine will compensate for where the w is and you can machine the part on the sub. So if you set everything up and find out you need to move the w axis you dont have to reset the z zero for the sub. And yes I can adjust the z offset for the sub if I need to change the part length.
So now that I have your attention please tell me why Haas hasn't improved on the most basic aspects of it's machines. Why doesn't Haas have pretensioned ballscrews supported on both ends with thrust bearings? Why doesn't Haas use ballscrews with two nuts preloaded against each other? Why hasn't Haas put a cylindrical roller guideways on any of its machines? Why is there no big plus spindle option on any Haas mills? None of these features are new, even off name brands from taiwan have most of these features. I like the new sheetmetal on the Haas mills, but think I would rather have something that boosts performance than new sheetmetal and paint.
I think it is because Haas wants you to go get a new Okuma. Enjoy!Quote:
Originally Posted by Edster
You have a personal score to settle or something? I'm trying to figure out why somebody that apparently has so many questions about the fundamental machine design choices of a Haas CNC doesn't just call up the factory and ask the people responsible, rather than trying to passive-aggressively pick a fight with Ken over the internet.
Well that is what happened. But that's not the impression I got from our HFO salesman.Quote:
Originally Posted by haastec
No personal score to settle. Was a Haas owner but now I can't justify purchasing a Haas machine because of all their shortcomings, although I would prefer to support an american machine tool builder. What's the harm in Ken answering these questions? Does he not work at the factory? Maybe he has some inside information about why Haas chooses to skimp out in the areas I pointed out. Furthermore why would this bother you? In the end customer feedback like this might result in Haas stepping up their game and how would that be bad for you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ydna
I don't work for Haas but even I know the answer to every question you asked, it's because the business side of Haas believes it wouldn't be cost effective for them to invest in those technologies compared to the added income that would result of them. The same reason Haas doesn't sell a dual turret lathe, or a dual column vertical, or a multi-axis swiss auto, or a screw machine is the exact same reason that neither of us are going to decide to start an apple orchard tomorrow instead of machining parts. It's not cost effective, plain and simple.
Either that or Haas is ran by people that don't understand their customers, market, and margins. That's pretty hard to believe for one of the highest selling manufacturers out there.
This is the problem with social media websites, unrelated topics like this become the automatic place for anybody to leave spiteful invitations for chopping block public debates. Like I said if you wanted to find out about Haas machine design why not simply private message Ken, or e-mail him, or call him, or post a new thread directly asking him. Any of those options would have made perfect sense compared to turning this troubleshooting post on programming a Haas lathe into a Mccarthy era interrogation.
I'm not the internet police, we can all do whatever we want here, but think about this...the original poster doesn't about Okuma's W functions, and probably cares even less about ballscrews and bearing nut design.
Couldn't get more obvious than that. What I don't understand is why the "business side" of Haas believes they shouldn't make meaningful improvements in their products. They spend a lot of time developing new machines only to drop them from their line. Example, what happened to the GT series of lathes? They spent resources developing the GT lathes, they even had live tool versions they debuted at IMTS. Couple years later they dropped the line. Wouldn't all that effort be better spent refining their core products? Compaired to the resources spent on developing the GT lathes wouldn't it have been better to use those resources to do a simple upgrade to their VMC's by installing roller guideways, or beefing up their ballscrews and support bearings.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ydna
Highest selling by volume maybe but not gross sales. There are many other builders that offer larger or more sophisticated machines that might not sell as many machines but have higher gross sales. And Haas counts rotary products as machines so their volume numbers are misleading. There are a lot of shops in my area that won't touch Haas machines. There are also many Haas users that switch brands after owning Haas machines. So it seems to me Haas could be doing a better job trying to understand their customers and market.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ydna
I didn't set out to turn the OP's post off topic, just offering a different perspective on how other machine tool builders do things. The OP might not have any experience with other builders.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ydna
And again whats the harm in asking Ken here after he replied directly to my post, other than taking the thread slightly OT?
And why is it that Haas owners have such thin skin when it comes to any negative feedback on Haas machines. You would think by the responses to any negative feedback toward the machines that there was a ceremony performed with an exchange of vows when the machine was purchased. This is a general observation btw not just regarding this thread. I perfer to think of the machines like the Lieutenant in starship troopers. I need a machine...your it until your dead or I find something better.
Well thats obvious too. If he cared about ballscrew and bearing design he wouln't have bought the Haas. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ydna
The Edster is just a former Haas owner, at least he says he used to own one, who goes from Haas post to Haas post to cause problems and stir up trouble. You can check his posts to verify this. In another Haas post yesterday on another forum, he responded to someone by telling them basically that they were ignorant by telling them that "I guess ignorance is bliss.......... " I just assumed that he was speaking from personal experience and so I did not respond. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ydna
Mike
And here is a quote from Machineit from that same thread when his panties were in a wad because someone, not me btw, posted a negative opinion about Haas. Which I replied with facts not emotional rants. If is pleases you go ahead and look at my other posts you'll find the majority here and on the other forum have nothing to do with Haas.Quote:
Originally Posted by Machineit
This post is a good example of what I posted above about some Haas users and the thickness of their skin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Machineit
Quote:
Originally Posted by Edster
I am not thin skinned about Haas criticism. I just don't like those who post just attack posts, posts that serve no purpose to those reading them. I like to help and assist users, not attack them or their machines.
The post I was responding to, as re-posted by Edster, was this: "Haas is junk, a disgrace to USA built machinery." Now, that is an educated and useful post, right? That is where the Edster jumped in and attacked me and my post.
These are negative posts about Haas machines. Please note that no one attacked the poster, simply because they were honest and truthful posts and we all accept them and agree. None of them attacked the machines or their owner's, they just gave honest input. There are dozens and dozens of posts like these and no one complains.
"My opinion I can spread over the whole Haas Lineup...good bang for the buck. A lack of power and rigidity will require the need for an extra roughing pass or two on lots of jobs... but you get what you pay for."
"For me, I'll take the money saved and put it towards an additional machine...I'd rather run two jobs on two machines then having only one robust machine run faster. At least for now."
"But I also know Haas limitations, they are not robust. It takes some getting used to, having to lighten the load a bit when roughing adding an additional pass or two...I like to think the overall speed and having a second spindle more then makes up for it. If I had piles of work that required heavy roughing on an ASAP schedule, I'd look into a better class of machine. The extra cost of going up would be justified in my eyes."
In another thread where the thread starter was showing of his new Haas machine, the Edster posted this: "Just curious, with Matsuuras and Robodrills why did you choose a Haas?" Why post that at all? Obviously the buyer did research before choosing Haas, as have many many thousands of others. Why question his judgement? It serves no purpose in a thread where someone is just sharing their happiness with a new machine purchase.
So, in conclusion, it is not that I, nor anyone else that owns these machine, can't take criticisms of them, that is not an issue. We all bought them knowing their limits. But, unfair attacks and questioning their owners sanity for buying one is not right.
That is my view of this and I'll not post anymore on the matter. I would just like to see threads and posts stay civil and helpful, not unnecessarily negative.
Y'all have a great week and keep making chips. :)
Mike
Machineit, I didn't attack you. I responded to your rant by asking you to answer a few questions which you never did. Then you indirectly called me an @sshole, and my tone toward you changed but wouldn't you expect that.
Why are you reading so much into this. The op in that post had posted pictures of his shop that had robodrills and matsuuras in it. I was just curious as to why he chose to add a Haas. He had posted a direct reply which anserwed my question and I didn't post anything negative about it. I think your grabbing at straws here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Machineit
Sure could have fooled me by your first post in this thread. Seems like you were trying to stir things up more than anything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Machineit
That is literally what Haas is all about. We constantly review designs and simplify our machines and our machine lineup. As the largest supplier of machine tools in the world, we happen to know something about the market. We constantly strive to listen to our customers and even prospective customers. That being said, regardless of any finesse in the questioning, these are almost valid concerns and to our valued customers, I bestow the following information:Quote:
Originally Posted by Edster
We do have pre-tensioned ballscrews that are supported at each end. The only exception is the smaller, lighter duty machines such as TMs (Z-axis) and the Mini Mills. We prefer angular contact bearings over the thrust bearings, they accomplish the same thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edster
All of our ballscrews are preloaded. Some use the double nut method to preload, some use an offset grind to achieve the same thing. The ballscrew manufacturer chooses the method, we simply specify the preload.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edster
We don’t see a need for these more expensive guideways. If a machine is properly designed around the guideways we choose, then the machine should meet the performance objectives of our design.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edster
We don’t see the advantages our weighing the disadvantages of the Big Plus spindle. We want a common spindle across all of the machines to simply production and support for our customers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edster
Our latest revision of machine does look AWESOME. Appearance is the least important change, we upgraded many aspects that we thought would make the machine more valuable to our customers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Edster
Summary:
In all of these cases, Haas has made a decision on how we build machine tools. All of these items could be designed into a machine tool, but then it drives the cost and complexity of the machine tool beyond where we target our machine tools. Take the example for Ford versus a Ferrari. Ford could absolutely build a car to rival the Ferrari in performance, but it would have the same issues as a Ferrari; cost, complexity, service, etc. We are fine with being the Ford of machine tools. We want to build the best value machine tool, not the one with the absolute highest level of complexity and technology. Now, value doesn’t mean cheap, it means the best return on investment. We want our customers to be able to make the most money possible with our machine tools. There is more to a machine tool than just the bearings, etc. Its how you apply the overall package.
I’ve answered these questions and I’m sure it’s going to start a whole other debate on what value and return in investment mean to each person. Regardless of any personal opinions, Haas has never tried to build a machine tool to suit everyone. Our salesmen know that there are some potential sales that do not suit us and we have to let another manufacturer fill the customer's needs.
Edster,
I appreciate the challenge and I hope I have answered all of your questions to your satisfaction. If however, you wish to continue this discussion; please e-mail me at [email protected]
Thank you for taking the time to address my "almost valid concerns" and I apologize for my lack of finesse. :) I promise I'll let the thread die, but I have to respond to a couple of the points you made first.Quote:
Originally Posted by KenFoulks
I think you may be mistaking preloading the support bearing with pretensioning the ballscrew. I know that Haas supports the end of the ballscrew opposite the actual thrust bearings, that are near the servo motor, on almost all of their machines. And it's certainly better than just leaving the end flopping around. Even though you have preload on the support bearing, 4 inch pounds according to the Haas VF series service manual for 32mm, 40mm, and 50mm screws, that is nowhere near the force needed to actually stretch the ballscrew which is what pretensioning the screw achieves.Quote:
Originally Posted by KenFoulks
I have to disagree here. I understand it is your choice not to use roller guideways, but Haas machines are not known for their rigidity. This seems like the simplest way to achieve a boost in rigidity. I understand that it's a monumental effort to redesign the machine, and I don't think that you need to do that for the entire line. Why not build a version of a popular VMC, like the VF3, that incorporates roller guideways and beefed up ballscrews and call it a performance model like what Haas did with the Super Speed machines.Quote:
Originally Posted by KenFoulks
Yes the sheetmetal does look awesome! Chip handling is much improved especially with the new auger and chip conveyor systems. Haas also made some big improvements in the servo's and encoders. And Haas has always been good with operator conviences like easy to disconnect coolant tank connections, standard air gun, standard coolant wash down, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by KenFoulks
Thanks again for answering my questions, but I've got one more. What happened to the roller gear drive rotary table you had on display at the last IMTS show? I was thinking Haas was moving in the right direction with that, and I have a brochure that I got from IMTS, but have seen no information on the website or the web anywhere on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by KenFoulks
Really wishing for a UMC-750 with roller gear drives, cylindrical roller linear guides, and beefy pretensioned ballscrews.
They just started selling them last week, I got an e-mail about it. That, to me, is THE biggest issue I wanted Haas to improve upon compared to everything else. We'll definitely be buying one of those and hopefully there will be a 5ax version in the future.
I was going to type up a lengthy paragraph all about the GT lathes you mentioned (I have a GT-20 with toolchanger) but I figure it's a waste. The machine itself is just a secondary operation lathe. All things considered there are many cheaper ways to get the same job done, I can only assume that's why they were discontinued. Of course I don't know for sure but the influx of cheaper machines probably is to blame.
Given that they sell much, much more of the smaller mills and lathes compared to the larger ones I think that explains why their efforts are concentrated there for the most part rather than trying to produce an ultra-rigid machine. Their entire production process is built around those popular machines (easily identified by the noticeable difference in factory lead times between them). The factory can spend umpteen-million dollars coming out with a lovely mill to bring the line up to the "next level"....then sell one of the machines every other month because everybody that wants the machine already wants to buy a Mori, Makino, Doosan, or something.
You may not have guessed that I own an Okuma 4 axis lathe myself. I love the machining aspects of it, but I dislike the electronics, control, fluid power system, and the service/support is a whole separate bag of worms. We're looking to buy another lathe later this year, I'll not be buying another Okuma for a number of reasons. The point is in terms of a machine being cost effective there are a thousand factors to consider, not just buying the most rigid or the fastest or most rigid or anything at all. That's why there are different companies that specialize in different things.