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Originally Posted by
datac
>>> i don't think its worth the money, so we can agree to disagree there.
Well, then your options are the old standby at $150 and its shortcomings, or perhaps the two newer USB offerings for the $500 area. With that, your back into USB, but frankly, I do not believe USB is really a problem. In the case of FC, I understand that V4 essentially was a lot of code from very early days, and V5 was going to put a whole lot more operation on the black box rather than the PC. I looked at V5 once, but the two Plasma machines I have that use V4 run perfectly fine, so I don't really need any changes there.
Perhaps you are a candidate for LinuxCNC ? I've been in and out a few times and always found something that I thought should have worked or worked better. (arc radius issues and debounce as I recall) I have not looked since PathPilot has been the rage.
Yeah no linuxCNC isn't for me, i like the windows, i like the flashcut hardware, i'd like just like it to be able to do what they claim it can do, i want to automate it as much as possible., and have a nicer more responsive GUI thats usesable and not just there for being there (as it seems)
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>>> Ii'd love to know how to interface an encoder wheel to it then, so please do tell.
I forgot to mention MPG before, yes, you are right.... No MPG possibilities. Not on V4. Could be I am the odd man out as I always felt they are way over rated. In fact, I have often joked about people who have always bragged about how "cheap" this certain control was, because I guess, they have no money really to spend..... but make any old dangly thing that will plug into Mach, and they will throw all kinds of money at it, even if it does not work ! (Plenty of Mach add-ons never really worked... but hey, it was cheap, right ?)
I've got machines with MPG's and without. I've got some that are more local that you just push buttons on a fixed box. In the end, it's just a box you grab to jog the machine. I guess I more or less fell in love just using a wireless game controller for all the flatbed style machines, and for me, it has worked perfectly. More perfectly that any MPG. I can jog, change speeds, set zero, start and feedhold just fine. And for less $$ than what guys have been charging for their WIRED mpg's. "Professional looking" ? No. But who cares. It is my favorite jog box. Wireless is the only way especially on the longer machines. So, while I dont have one of those things that make my machine look "pro" hanging there, I still get it done.
i dont think i want a lot, just a way to set XYZA axis and know it changed, then jog that axis at different speeds.Is that really so much to ask? i'd prefer not to have to go over to the GUI and switch it manually to Jog mode and then have to watch the screen to make sure its in the right mode fast/med/slow and what size steps its taking. i basically want a pendant thats authoritative, and doesn't cause a crash because its not in the mode you think its in, i don't really want to keep looking back at the screen and using the keyboard.
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>>> there aren't enough of the keyboard commands (which isn't the right way to do a jog box, but it'll do)
What commands are you missing ? The only ones I recall not being able to control are the Axis jog WHILE running a G-code (awesome feature for some machines)
something to allow an encoder wheel to work., simulating a keyboard is not ideal.
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>>> i don't have a reliable way of having a jog controller than can do xyza + continous/step fast/slow/med with feedback on the jog, i have not found any documentation on that
You want all that for $1000 ? :-) I'm sure some people need it.. I am just kidding with ya. I never needed anything like that... I jog, set the program zeros and hit the button to run. Then I walk away and wait for an alarm to tell me the machine is waiting for new parts. For many parts, I don't need the jog anytime after it was set up for the first one. Perhaps it's because I always jig my work and have known X-Y fence and or pinned locations. Z zero's are automated where optimum.
doesn't flashcut charge something like $500 for a limit switch kit which is some wire, a few microswitches and three small aluminium brackets for their cnc conversion kits ?
yeah i want that for $500 or less whatever the cost of their pendant is., not what is a essentially a numeric keypad which i can buy from amazon for $10.
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>>> yep a daughter board to do a basic feature thats available on most 100-150$ boards, how much is that daughter board btw?
Not sure anymore. Been a while. I can not fault a company for staying IN business though. Only THEY know their business model. If a company doesn't know their business model, they could end up like any one of the various control manufacturers we have seen disappear over the last 20 years. But, indeed, there are other companies including this into their package. Perhaps you need to try Eding ? I've always anxiously awaited for someone to fully explore what it is and does, then tell us all about it. Price is nice... can't argue that.
I feel like a 10V should be default on a "PRO" box, i feel like 24V IO tolerant should be as well. That is the choice they made, the hardware inside the box is really nice and really well done, it just lacks features.
Haven't seen Eding, i'll check it out
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>>> VFD control feedback for one.
Something beyond the realm of encoder rpm feedback ?
yeah something beyond that, fault modes, estop, control modes, start/stop etc. the tech has gotten a lot better. modbus is often available.
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>>>unfortunately thats just the way usb+windows works they are not designed for RTOS......
Well, we all get that, but really, In that people scream how expensive FC is, what other cheap options are perfect ? Mach ? Parallel port ? Lol.... Things sure change. Once it was heralded the best on the planet, and it's till got plenty of issues, not to mention the demise of the Parport.
its not expensive, but it's not cheap either, especially when you add the daughterboard+limitswitch+pendant, it goes up real fast. i mean c'mon check out that limit switch kit.
i'd like to see the machine state stored in the controller, the windows side is just the viewer and so on, if the windows app crashes or loose connection ( usb suffers terribly from ground loops and i don't believe its opto isolated on the FC) then the box can still maintain state. and you can safely reconnect without loosing anything. When i looked at the system, thats what i thought it was , this giant box (thats mostly empty) with all these PRO and realtime claims, i thought it'd be a true controller, with a remote, not that the windows box was doing most of the work.
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Now too, a lot of this discussion comes down to what each individual thinks a machine control must do. Myself, I want to set zero, and hit start, have the machine do the job as quickly and as smoothly as possible, then let me know when it is done. I could care less about how its blood is pumped thru its veins to do that. And, so much continues to change !
I recall when all you could get was a proprietary card.. and DOS. Ugh. ($1000 - $5000)
sure things are a lot better now, so i'd like to get the benefits of that, DOS was 30 years ago.
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Then you had the first parallel option in Ability Systems IndexerLPT (which was quite miraculous at the time). ($995-$1295)
When Flashcut came out with serial port communication, it was one of the earlier affordable products that used the "black box" methods. Now, not only did it work quite well, it was WINDOWS based, which at the time was essentially unheard of. It also had a pretty decent continuous contouring by late 1997, and it ran from a laptop. NOT BAD ! ($795)
and thats all great if we're reminiscing, but we're in a time of cheap powerful microcontrollers and systems that are really good and run in windows, i have a logic analyser that streams at signal rates that are never seen on any CNC anywhere thats windows+usb works great, cost me $10, and my nice one cost $150, it used to be $10K+ and a giant black box, now its one chip.
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For the next several years, it really only was Microkinetics who was pushing something that worked with windows in similar fashion (effortless networking and file transfer was the biggest reason to want it), but continuous motion was not their strong point. ($1200)
At this time, LinuxCNC was still pretty infant. FREE
Then we endured the years of "you can't do CNC in Windows" baloney from the hobby DOS users, all while people with Flashcut at least were not having anyl problems "in windows" making parts whatsoever. I never knew whether to laugh about it or cry that people had no clue what they were talking about.
as someone who has done windows dev since it came out, i've heard all the same crap so i know what you're talking about. I'm not having problems with the windows/flashcut (except the jog lag) they use threads and timers, and windows messaging to control the jog screen, its not always ideal, that is where a RTOS does improve it.
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Then we had the "we hate the black box" era, which Art Fenerty took note of and using LinuxCNC and I am sure, some of Art Volta's Indexer as inspiration, came up with a new version "everyday" of Mach. People sure loved "Cheap" ! While I and my company were making parts, the Machers were beta testing. Heck, they are still beta testing. But, cheap still won the day.
sure, some people still do, i'm fine with if it works, and if it doesn't as long as they're ok with me taking it apart and making it work
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Then it came time when people realized the VALUE of the black box method. But, because black boxes did not come cheap for just anyone to make, people then rallied "we want open source black box" ! Of course no one was able to come out at that time and freely give all their hard work away by handing out black boxes or black box circuits.
now move ahead 10 years and look at things like the tinyg/smoothieboard which do have a ways to go yet, but they're really good for whats basically a bunch of volunteers throwing something together.
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So now, we are almost full circle. You have people realizing that a black box or dedicated card really is the ticket. The black box having a slight edge regards a bit less tied to the continuous changing of internal port configurations. And, with that, we do now see "black box" level products showing up from the eding... kflop etc. type development world at pretty affordable rates. There is just so much more known today about what people want in a control, or even what all the machine variables need to be than existed back in the day. Add to that, now any Tom, Dick or Harry can contract boards to be made at unheard of rates in comparison.
i disagree there, a black box with an open API is what i'd like. not a walled garden. sure i'm the minority of flashcut users, but am i the minority because it doesn't offer those features, or because there aren't many people like me ?
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And, that is where we are today. Everything is really either headed into the once hated black box, or dedicated card. Black box has the upper hand for longevity because USB and Ethernet standards
will be easier dealt with than internal port changes (how many of them have taken place in the last 20 years ? - how long will they really be retained at this point?) Personally, I see where their could be some really great development from some of the new comers.
well if i had a vote i'd prefer ethernet/CAN/LIN over USB for control systems.
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We have seen this from the 3d printer world in GRBL-ish dev. The trick will be, how many people... how many variables will there be of "cheap" that really do not work the way you and I think they should ? Probably more than we will be able to count. How many are YOU willing to buy and play with, only to find out your as upset as you are with FC ? It is a good question !
i didn't buy a 3d printer for ages, since its a toy and i let everyone else sort out the mess, then i picked up a cheap flashforge and it performs poorly and its a PITA, i use it occasionally, however i knew that going into it because thats how they're positioned
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I have noticed that V5 from FC regards NON-plasma has been slow in coming. To be fair, I also realize they bit off a VERY large chunk when they decided to also build into their control, full 2d and 3d cad/cam. While certainly nice, it comes at a cost in many ways. One is time..... and time can lose customers, just like you pointing out that there should have been fixes already. It was/is a huge gamble for them, unless of course they know something we don't know, and that could be a move into better OE sales. One could only imagine that an all in one program would fill the bill for many machine builders. I do believe FC V5 is already proving to be an excellent control in the plasma world, but might perhaps be slow because of the price. Hey... people gotta get paid. What can you do about that ?
sure i know very little about FC as a company, i'm sure they're doing great stuff, i just want what they sold me to work and have the bits they told me it had before i bought it.
yep we gotta get paid, i'm totally on for that, but i'm also on the i want what i paid for too, not just marketing speak or promises..
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>>> yes quite sure, i've changed PC's three times, and i'm using high quality gear, i've been a hardware/software developer for over 30 years, so i know my way around a PC. The crashes are reproducible.
I've found reproducible crashes over the years, and it always did seem that it was when a setup was specifically a certain way for a certain machine. In other words, one style machine would never see the issue, but anothers would specifically because of something in the way it was set in the setup. That said, when I did find them, I called, and they ALWAYS provided a quick fix. Though I do realize that fixing V4 issues at this point are not going to be a focus of theirs when they are working hard to build a V5.
Still, something has to be amuk with what you have because I simply do not have crashes. Two plasma cutters, a 6'x12' router, a 30" x 48" router, numerous engraving machines, some homebuilt, some Retro'd NewHermes, Two retro'd Western Engravers, the large Novakon mill...... Short of many of them still running XP PC's, I couldn't be happier. Maybe THAT is the key ? Come to think of it, I dont think any of them are on anything newer than XP.
yeah i run 7, not windows XP . its advertised to work on it. but again i personally feel like some of the flaws are due to the way the GUI handles the jogging, there is a lot of lag between a keyboard/process and then sending via usb to another box. the round trip time for that is a lot.
you did say earlier i think that you're not doing a lot of that type of thing, so perhaps you're not seeing it because of that. but i can regularly do a continuous jog Z down and every so often you'll hit the Z-/Z+ button the GUI , nothing happens, then you press it again and it'll do two steps.
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Perhaps I was able to enjoy their best times. Not much unlike the XP years, where we as IT admins had lived thru 12 years of things that worked pretty well, now things have started to slide with Windows 8-10. Personally, they provide absolutely nothing in regards a companies productivity... only eye candy for the kiddies. But we are forced into it.
7 is great, 10 is good, 8 never happened.
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I have to reflect on Flashcuts long excellent run keeping guys like me pretty happy. One Western machine still runs the same 1997 box it was retrofitted with. With a simple chip swap and newer software, it is still an incredibly capable machine that gets a lot of hobby use these days. Not many companies have been able to keep the same hardware running for so many years.
great, you're a repeat customer, i'm just a guy with one box who never got any answers beyond, no, its coming and no reply at all. you're where their bread and butter is. i'm the guy posting FC is bad. but that was after 10 months.
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>>> i'd like my machine settings, and there are mechanisms like checksums and so on to recover state, a cars ECU has to do it, as do other devices so its not too much to ask.
So, are we aware of any sub $1000 controllers doing such ? With a lot of these newer programs, it is possible. I've been too functional to even try one of them. Frankly, I'm wanting for a USB control option for Linux as windows really is starting to be annoying. You would think that developers would be really sick of the changes required just over the last few years to keep their offerings operational.
To me, a hard crash would be a hard crash, and I would find more security in a full reset of the environment in any scenario. If you start reading forums about todays cars (any of them), there are no miracles going on... lots and lots of crazy, that's all. Some of these late model cars are going to be completely unrepairable once the warranty runs out. When you find someone who replaces a dome light bulb with an LED bulb, and the whole car goes crazy, well, to me, that is not a good direction to be headed.
there are lots of boards that can store state, but the real question is whats sub $1,000 and is closer to professional use and not for the hobby/home/non income user. the smoothieboard is heading in the right direction, it is $150. It's pretty decent, not for a minute am i saying a working shop should be swapping out FC's for something like a smoothieboard, but its coming. that stuff is really improving, i have an accuratecnc360 that i paid $15,000 for to make PCB's about 7 years ago, its great , very precise and works well. but i'm looking at things like the othermill which is a 10th of the cost, and its coming very close to the capabilities.
a PC is sub $1000 and it does a whole of a lot more than the FC box.
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>>> i'm loading off a ssd, and its slow, its not even loading that much..
Not seeing that. At the shop, all my files are on a server..... 50% are at home. I can't say I have an issue !
how long does it take you to loads 20K lines of GCODE?
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>>> realtime is important, its an external box with a controller it should be able to do other things like update the DRO's during a probe operation, you might be ok with that, and perhaps thats why you're so happy with it, maybe you're just not driving it hard enough, this is just a mode of operation.
I think I am ok with it because as the machine is probing, I have literally zero reason to be staring at a DRO for any reason. The numbers are changing so fast, I can't absorb any one of them anyhow. Good thing the machine is though. Nonetheless, it is very clear that V5 was going to spread workloads around far, far different than V4 ever did, or ever could have. It IS a fast changing world regards every possible thing involved. And, I guess it is working.. well, for the plasma world anyhow.
how about if you're writing new GCODE and macros to probe circle holes, and program zero, and want to make sure its doing what you think it ought to do, hard to simulate GCODE that requires feedback.
If i had a machine with DRO's and they just didn't update during certain operations, i'd replace them. i don't always need to know what speed my car is going, or RPM but i expect the gauges to be accurate and always running. just seems off to me.
wheres that ESTOP line connected too, does it send the signal directly into the box, or does it send it into the box, then down usb to the windows box, then to flashcut, then back to the box? same for the probe?
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>>> ok so we agree, its bad, when was the last update? i also agree its old, the GUI is horribly outdated and uses a very old graphics method. however thats not how its marketed.
V4 is and has been slated for death. It is what it is, and I am sure that FC would like to be much farther along than they are with V5... or, perhaps they are fully content with the plasma market ? I do know they suffered a DEVESTATING loss with the death of one of their really, really brilliant engineers. Take any small company who invests in a really good worker and suddenly to not have them ? It is tough.
i wonder how much the upgrade will be. Sorry to hear about the death. It is tough , i've run my own businesses i get it, but again i'm only really looking for what i was sold, i'm not asking for FC to do the work for me, or change anything (sure fix bugs but they do that or they've stopped working on V4). I'm not saying hey you monkeys i paid a lot of money for this thing, give it to me, i've given up asking them , and the most i asked them for is, can i have the SDK, which they've never responded. i asked three times over the course of a about 3 months.
If you've seen my other posts i'm doing the work myself and trying to bypass FC and add the bits i wanted, i got the VFD working with FC by poking under the windows hood. But the cost of that is that i'm unhappy about FC, and i'm going vocalise that while i post the solutions i've found, so others in my position can gain, i ain't charging for the work i'm doing (that i feel I did pay FC for btw)
I'm not complaining about the cost of the box, i do think some of the accessories are outrageously priced though, but i didn't buy em, so as you said earlier, you don't have too, agreed on that .
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>>> ok sure, but if you look on the flashcut forum you'll see i'm writing various gcode routines to do probing for finding program zero, and finding the center of circles, my version does not update the DRO
Alright, indeed, I see your work there. Not much unlike how you would do any automated event from simple z zeroing mid job to toolchanging. Very nice. I still do not understand what you need the DRO to show you while it is locating. I run automated zeroing mid jobs... heck, I'm not even there for some. I could care less what the DRO says while it is locating prior to running. I'm sure it would be more relevant to someone building a measuring machine of sorts, but I think even there, the positions found could be written to file if necessary.....
as i said before, i want to see what its doing , its moving so slowly on some moves, and then really fast elsewhere i want to make sure its going in the right direction, i don't want to have to guess if its only searching .5 and the tool won't crash. Crashing a touch probe isn't that great, sure i can do it another way and so on, or i could be using DROs which is what they're designed to do ?
I just find it odd that anyone would be its OK the DRO's don't update, seems pretty basic, doesn't seem like an unreasonable ask.
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>>>> ok so again we agree, its broken, they've said they''ll fix it, it happens on 10 minute runs for me. this is becoming a trend.
I wouldn't hold my breath on anything V4 being fixed these days, but I do not see estimated run times off very much on jobs that run an hour or so.
well if i had done that, i'd be dead 10+ months ago ;) . I see it all the time, especially with more complex GCODE.
again i'm no longer expecting anything from FC, i'm just getting on with it as best i can, its a lot of work to figure out the internals but i can do it..
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>>> nope modern day PC, i can repeat it on multiple PC's at will. i don't have USB issues, today i just swapped out a brand new PC for it, because my other ones cpu fan died. fresh install, fresh hardware, same thing.
I know you shouldn't have to, but I'd tend to want to crack open that black box and look at all the solder joints and reseat the main chip. Something is not right. If everyone did have this much trouble, you would not see any forum replys that just say "we love it", and "it just works".... because that is what it must be doing. I mean, it does it for me and has been for years !
i was in there last night changing the steps for the Z axis, and it looks fine , the chips are soldered not socketed, i'd like to have seen a heavier conformal coating, but just got to keep that box well away from swarf since its not filtered. their hardware is generally really nice, i don't know the connection between WPI and flashcut though.
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Maybe you have a chip with questional firmware ? I have no idea. I assume you only have the one Flashcut control ?
yep but it when its cutting, its fine. i've cut a lot of stuff on it, i only have issues with the jogging in that sense, so it doesn't feel like its a hardware/box error, its always possible but i think its the design of the UI personally.
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>>> macros aren't the same thing, custom cycles. its in the Cycles tab, under custom.
Ok, yes, my bad. No clue. Never bother with the tab. No clue what it does right or wrong. I guess I am not "pushing it enough" !
they're just some mystery box for some mystery customer. yeah maybe you do all the stuff i'm looking for in different software, and have different processes.
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>>> me too, but i'm odd that i like to use the features of the software to do what its meant to do, not be broken and force me to go back to a cad/cam and setup a CAM operation to run a facing operation.
Can't argue that. If they sell it as something that works, it should work.... though, it never bothers people who spend only $150 when it doesn't really work. So it is a price thing.
well theres also that whole fanboyism, people get attached to a brand and are loyal to corporations so sometimes they let that sway them.
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>>> so does seem like i said in an earlier post, you're just not using all the features, so you're happy with the subset. which is totally fine, but why defend it to others who're having issues for stuff you don't use?
I guess because for one, it does not have a small user base. I've been to their facility in Chicago once, and when there, there is no way only a handful of people happy with the subset are using it.... not with that size of a facility, that many employees, and that many systems being assembled and heading out the door.
So, I defend it because it has for now close to 20 years run every dang machine I threw it on, and with an excellence that has filled my bill. I can not say that for many other controls that have come thru my life, including a LOT of OE controls. Plenty of them are absolute garbage for far more money than FC ! So, I will continue to defend it.
When someone says it does not work and don't use it, while thousands obviously are using it for something, it should be defended. Heck, even Mach is "defended"... I've never seen a squirllier control. Even mach 4 gets "defended", though to be hones, you do see cracks showing up in that world in the last year now. For some, the most "awesome control on the planet" suddenly no longer fills their bill I guess. It's all part of the evolution of controls.
i had a similar back and forth with the mach guys a few weeks ago when i was looking for an alternative, i got a similar response from them as yours to this, it works for them, lots of of people use it, what i wanted is dumb/or not in general enough. so i said thanks, and moved on. interestingly a feature that flashcut does have that mach4 no longer does, and one of the reasons i still use FC.
somehow people think if a lot of people use something, it just works. it makes me feel those people don't realise how much people will put up with when they're invested into a system, rather than being a utilitarian box with a computer that does math and has no care for anything beyond that, it becomes an emotional part of them.
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>>> it'll be in the next version.
In the earlier days, I can tell you that I could have a complaint, or even a feature request and more often than not, I had a version with the feature within a week ! But, this whole V5 thing... like I said, it was one, a BIG, BIG dream to fit in the whole cad/cam thing on top of a full rewrite of what the black box was going to carry in comparison to the PC (many of which were not even possible years earlier), and then you toss in the loss of one of their highly regarded engineers. it is what it is. One thing it is, is that I have seen V5 running full blast at trade shows, so I know they have something.
great if they ship V5 as within reason paid update or free to V4 that works on the same hardware, awesome . otherwise i bought a new system that was already obsoleted when i bought it, with no idea that it was and was a dead end, you says thats great customer service, me not so much. i'm sure they're not telling people hey btw this is an EOL product, but its full price and we're not going to update it again, or fix bugs etc.
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>> then they shouldn't be advertising it as such, and currently still are.
Can't argue that. I would not want to if it was my product... but it is not my product. Bosses do funny things... just stop by where I work and I will point some funny things out ! lol !!
yeah same everywhere, i get it. but as long as people defend the practice for them,it'll continue.
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>>> no offence mate, but the amount of stuff in this post you made that you said you're not aware or don't use in flashcut of doesn't really shock me ;)
Never offended. never. No time for it. It's foolish to read emotion into forum posts.
awesome and frankly unexpected, but very welcome.
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>>> there are a lot of people using the older version of flashcut with the SDK they managed to get with MATLAB...
Do you know what version it was ? The oldest version I think I have running would be one of the first version 3's. Though, with a quick chip flip, I could probably get back to V1.21. Boy, those were the days !
v2 or v3, i have the older versions but not the SDK for em, i've tried.
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>>> well first off, flashcut bailed on me, they don't reply to support emails, and they haven't supplied promised SDKs etc. also no updates including any of the promised fixes.
That is sad to hear... not sure why, pretty sure there will never be any updates to V4 anymore.
wish they'd mentioned that when i bought it, when instead they did the opposite and said updates and features were coming.
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>>> I'm probably going to gut it and rebuild it, the parts inside flashcut don't make are actually pretty nice. the WPI medical stuff is also nice.
I too always thought the hardware was good... never ever had one fail. I was not aware of the WPI medical stuff.......
I think you should get a modern competitors product installed and get cracking ! We will all need to know what our "next options" are if all things go to heck. I'm no fan of anything Mach, not too interested in any control that does not even make adjustments available in a gui (like LCNC who thinks no machine would ever need debounce adjustments), or perhaps the KFlop style world where you practically have to be a programmer to figure it out....
This is what is/was great with Flashcut. Install it on a laptop or pc, plug it in and visually make all the adjustments you require. No hours in forums looking for the hidden INI rules etc. Just RUN !
Chris
naw the mach fanboyism is out of control, its not somewhere i want to go. plus it doesn't support a feature i really like in FC, which i hope they keep in V5.
sure i had a similar experience with it, i got my FC conversion running in a day. that parts great, but things went a little bit downhill after that. its not quite what its hyped to be. again i'm only looking what was offered.
i just don't see myself even getting a quote for that daughterboard for the 10V line, simply because of the pendant/limit switch cost. why waste their time asking. no wonder they don't publish prices.
cheers,
charlie
