Looks cool...
https://tormach.com/machines/mills/1500mx.html
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Looks cool...
https://tormach.com/machines/mills/1500mx.html
nice looking setup and through spindle coolant is a wise option to have added , except I'd have expected cat40 . I hope the do well with them but for the same price a guy can buy a super mini
I have a quote right now for a mini-mill optioned out similarly to the 1500 and it is more like $20K more. Rigid tapping, HSM, 10K spindle, and 20-pocket ATC all cost 3-5K each, and if you want TSC you need to go 3-phase so add more $ there for a phase converter or whatever.Quote:
Originally Posted by metalmayhem
BT30 is more than adequate for this machine. You can find a ton of industrial machines with 10HP spindles running BT30 in demanding applications.
To be fair, the Haas minis will get you a 10HP machine weighing about a ton more, but not everybody needs those. I've rarely strained the motor on my 1100S3. The 1100MX wasn't enough more machine for me, and the Syil X5 just bugs me being a 100% China machine. I might still go for the Haas but this is now a real contender for me.
haas does get a guy on the options but a base super mini with 10k rpm and rigid tapping is 47k and high speed is another $3500 . The 1500 is 43k assembled . I know it's comparing apples to oranges but in that range I'd take the haas especially after the years I spent running them . It's not to knock the tormach and they look nice . I do like the tormach machines to . Haas support is horrible around here which would be an issue but so far I haven't been impressed with the support I've had from tormach either .
This is the quote I got for a Mini a couple weeks ago. I went with this over the Super since the Super requires 3-phase power and I am pretty constrained there with a 100A panel.
This does have the probe/toolsetter which would be another 5K on the Tormach. So call it 56K to be apples to apples. I still might buy the Haas too, but it is more of a horse race now than it was when the choices were between the 1100MX, Syil, and Haas. I do like that the Haas is assembled in the US, though how much of the components are, not sure.
Attachment 504254
On service, I think it might be a push? On one hand I like the idea of being able to call the HFO and have a tech come and fix it. On the other hand, when the Z axis brake on my 1100 failed, the replacement part was $300 and an hour of my time. I bought it 11 years ago as a basic machine then added the PDB 5 years later and the ATC a couple years after that, so I'm not afraid of the inside of it. It's pretty simple when you get down to it. Owning a Haas out of warranty scares me a little tiny bit.
Hi,
the Hass mini-mill has been the standard by which others have been compared, and it must be said the Hass mini-mill is a damn good machine for the money.
This new Tormach is serious and direct competition to Hass....and thats a good thing.
I don't like epoxy granite that much because it requires such a large section/volume to match the stiffness of iron/steel.
I would presume that Tormach know this and have designed the new 1500 to be 'suitably rigid'. Until we can get some real world data about the machines stiffness our assessment is based
on advertising material alone. I restate that I presume that Tormach have done a good design job, it would be a disaster to sully the reputation they have garnered by releasing a substandard
design.
Craig
Quote:
Originally Posted by sansbury
totally understandable . I production run 440's and others in a small 1000 sqf shop with somewhat limited power . A separate line to the shop would have been ideal . Worst case if a mill is shot I can drag it out the door and replace it . A haas repair can get costly especially when adding on the cost of a service technician . Plus I don't know about where you are but the techs here are absolute morons and hardly mechanically inclined let alone fit to fix a machine . Fortunately mini mill fixes aren't a regular thing , they are great machines within reason
I just see it as once the dollar value gets to a point then it's worth paying the extra if a guy can fit it into the situation . In my case I look at both and think I can plop in a decent number more 440's , the more spindles running the more I'm earning but thats just for my situation which isn't for everyone
the tormachs rapid speeds and the through spindle is nice . I'm sure they'll fit them into a lot of institutions and prototyping facilities . It definitely puts the haas office mill to shame
I wouldn't call them a standard . they are compared to because they are the lowest cost entry level industrial machines . In a lot of heavy fields they are refereed to as junk . Similarly tormach would be looked at as a toyQuote:
Originally Posted by joeavaerage
Hi,
Yep....thats sort of what I mean, lowest cost with 'pretentions' at least to industrial grade. They have been around a long time and are useful for comparison to manufacturers tryingQuote:
they are the lowest cost entry level industrial machines
to get into that same market.
Craig
honestly i made a mistake as i was glossing over your reply . i thought you said haas in general are the standard to compare to and not mini mill itself .
Once running into the higher prices then ya I agree they are definitely the ones to compare to . They are the next step from the hobby level machines , and they are much more machine as well
Hi,
yes, I think the Hass mini-mill is the next step up from hobby level machines....but then where does that put the new Tormach?
Given that's its epoxy granite it must have linear rails/cars like the Hass, and given that its got absolute multiturn encoders on the servos certainly puts it in the category of the Hass,
and yet still cheap enough to be considered a top-flight hobby machine.
I am going to assume that all the details line up, Tormach has a good record of matching capabilities, then I think this new mill will do very well for them, and congrats to Tormach if
indeed that is the case.
Craig
High end of tormach prototyping or institution mill thats built in china , is the feeling I get from it . Like most guys the sky is the limit when it comes to my hobbies , that is until reality sets in and a guy has to pull on the reigns and say woe . Not to knock it but I could get so much more of a machine on the used market , and a hobby guy really doesn't need all those bells and whistles . They just seem to be best suited to the budget of an institutionQuote:
Originally Posted by joeavaerage
Thats just the way I see it and to each his own . I'm sure they will sell lots of them and they are really nice judging by the video .
That's my feeling, it's aimed at high end prosumers, shops with limited ceiling heights & no 3-phase, people moving up from smaller/older Tormachs and office-mill type places -- institutions, R&D labs and the like for the engineers to mess with.
Tormach needs to have a flagship machine and I think it'll do well, but HAAS will finance anything with a pulse.
Far cry from the $6800 sticker on the original 1100, but then again you could almost get a new car for that back then.
FWIW, the TechShop guy once told me one reason they had Tormachs was they moved slowly enough to make it harder to smash somebody.
anyone that bought at that price has or can sell for more than originally paid , especially since the tormachs hold their value so well . I see them come up on the local market and I'm surprised by the asking prices but they sell them fairly quickly . The mini's and tm mills seem to hold a certain value as well vs a vf of the same yearsQuote:
Originally Posted by shred
I think the slower speeds on the lesser tormachs are beneficial for students and such since a crash won't provide much more damage that a busted tool and/or a new hole in the table or vise .
When tormach came out with the 440's they created an option that was inviting to hobbyists (not that the others weren't) . A base mill was $5000 , except it didn't come with the $1000 control included like it does now , and a chip pan was another 500 . At that I was quick to buy a few of them because they were the perfect specs for what I needed . A new 440 with the same is roughly $7700 which isn't a huge spike but it has gone up .
For hobbyists I think they should look backwards as well as forward . A lot of guys are still using sherlines and retrofitting x2 mills , and there are no solid turnkey options in that size range . A smaller affordable option would likely produce a high volume of sales , and often high volume low price is much more lucrative than big ticket items . A lot of guys need a true small benchtop that they can make parts with and the benchtop routers don't fit that bill unless a guy is cutting wood or plastic . Obviously a smaller bench top machine isn't for everyone but the market is there , I still use one of my old x2's for secondary rotary operations
Hi,
I have often dreamed about making a small CNC mill suitable for hobbyists. Indeed my own mill is my own take on an 1100/1500 style and size mill.
There are certain things which I regard as mandatory in any machine I build or would consider buying:
1) Rigid cast iron frame
2) Genuine ground C5 or C3 ballscrews, no rolled knock-offs
3) Linear rails/cars
4) Servos all axes
It must be said that with careful and clever design you can make a machine that has these characteristics at a reasonable price, but never cheaply. Even at full-on production quantities, the price may come down
but not really enough to be described as cheap. Aside from the cost of making the thing you still have to sell it at a profit.......and hobbyists are commonly allergic to paying a profit to ANYONE.
You might argue that a new Tormach 1500 is expensive....unless or until you go to make one yourself.
Craig
A long time ago I suggested they make a small machine where the table is a 6" Kurt-type vise. Make it rigid it and would be a useful size.Quote:
Originally Posted by metalmayhem