Purchasing SolidWorks for machine shop

Hello all. As the title says, I'm getting ready to pull the trigger on our first seat of SolidWorks. Some background info:

We are a machine shop, not a design/engineering firm. I will be doing very little creating from scratch, however we intend to be doing a lot of modifying our customer's drawings to make them more suitable for CAM. Our top 5 customers are using SolidWorks and I've never had much luck opening .Sldprt files without some corruption happening in the conversion process in my CAM software. So basically we are going to be taking care of the conversion process for them so I don't have to keep bugging them over bad surfaces and what not.

Yes, it sounds like we are buying a big hammer to pound down a couple small nails but I spend at least an hour or two a day making file requests. Our CAM vendor offers the OEM version of SW at a reduced price but frankly I don't trust my licensing to them. They don't have a good track record of sticking with the same 3rd party software vendors.

So, two questions.

1: Without a giant debate, would anyone like to say what CAM plugin they are using? Our customers use the MasterCAM for SW but I've never been a fan of MC and their maintenance program. I've seen DelCAM, SolidCAM, HSMWorks, CAMWorks, BobCAM, and of course MasterCAM. Any I'm missing? I don't have any budget in mind but I need to be able to do simultaneous 3 axis and 4th wrap/indexing would be a plus.

2: Aside from the CAM plugin, are there any other plugins/add ins that may be useful to a (strictly) machine shop? Any advantage buying them during the initial purchase or just worry about it later?

I appreciate any and all thoughts. To clarify what I mean "no budget in mind", money always matters. Can I spend $20k on CAM? Depending, yes. I already feel like I'm paying a premium just for clean file conversion but I can justify it on the time I'm saving. If a $20k CAM program can improve my workflow and get my parts out the door faster, I'm paying attention. As it is, I'm passing on great work because I can't manage time properly. Thanks in advance folks and I hope to spend a lot more time in this sub-forum.

I have been using solidcam for about 3 years, I love it. Try a demo you won't be sorry.

You may want to stay standalone with both packages.

With integration, all cam data is stored in the solidworks file. Your solidworks will be tied up by the cam side. Your cam will be tied up with solidworks.

If you are ready to toolpath a part you had to clean up, you cant move on to a new model until all cam is done and code is ready. (drip feeding I guess could be seperate?)

You should get rid of your translation issues by having the native solidworks to get a working part into whatever cam system you want. There still may be the occasional solidworks versioning issue, but you should be able to get around those.

Also, with integration, there your are, stuck.

A couple of thoughts from my perspective.

1) The purpose that you are buying SW for will also force you to spend the 1000+ every year for each seat. New SW files are not backward compatible. You will not be able to use your customers files and SW will be useless to you.

2) I would stop accepting SW files from the customers and trying to convert. Have them send you parasolid or step only for models and dwg for 2D. SW is extremely capable of giving you a proper converted interchange model.

3) Having your CAM tied to your CAD will always force you to buy service packs for both softwares and gives very little benefit. Any 3D CAM I have played with has geometry tools that can be used to tweak corners, fill surfaces and what not. This will also mean that you will have to start entirely from scratch if you decide that one or the other is no good for you.

4) SW is incredible software. If you are willing to spend the bucks every year and a couple of G for training, GO for it! You will love it. IMO it is an unnecessary expense for your purpose.

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Originally Posted by BurrMan

You may want to stay standalone with both packages.

With integration, all cam data is stored in the solidworks file.

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Not necessarily. A trick I use sometimes (with HSMXpress) is to bring the part into an assembly and program the tool paths there. This is nice because you can leave the customers part file unmolested and can also model in any fixtures and such. The cam data is stored entirely in the assembly so if the part changes you just drop in the new part and update as necessary.

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Originally Posted by BurrMan

Your solidworks will be tied up by the cam side. Your cam will be tied up with solidworks.

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That's a good point to consider. If you have solidworks anyway then it may not be such a big deal. But if you already have standalone cam then...? Either way you would want to figure out the total cost of both options and decide accordingly.

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Originally Posted by BurrMan

If you are ready to toolpath a part you had to clean up, you cant move on to a new model until all cam is done and code is ready. (drip feeding I guess could be seperate?)

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Drip feeding would be separate.

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Originally Posted by BurrMan

You should get rid of your translation issues by having the native solidworks to get a working part into whatever cam system you want. There still may be the occasional solidworks versioning issue, but you should be able to get around those.

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As long as you stay up to date with the yearly version release, versioning isn't a problem. I know the maintenance fee model is annoying, but to be honest, considering the capability that SW has, it's a bargain.

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Originally Posted by DareBee

A couple of thoughts from my perspective.

2) I would stop accepting SW files from the customers and trying to convert. Have them send you parasolid or step only for models and dwg for 2D. SW is extremely capable of giving you a proper converted interchange model.

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That it is. It does seem somewhat lame that anyone using SW would not be able (or willing) to provide a clean STEP/PARASOLID file for CAM purposes. But in the name of customer service it might be better to just nod and say yes, we can convert/clean up your files.

Regarding clean files, sometimes this has more to do with how the part is modeled than it does with file conversion. In the hands of an unskilled user, even SW is capable of producing models with bad surfaces.

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Originally Posted by DareBee

3) Having your CAM tied to your CAD will always force you to buy service packs for both softwares and gives very little benefit. Any 3D CAM I have played with has geometry tools that can be used to tweak corners, fill surfaces and what not. This will also mean that you will have to start entirely from scratch if you decide that one or the other is no good for you.

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I would argue that you should stay up to date with any software that you use to make a living with (within reason of course). I see it as the cost of doing business. And the benefits of integration are in the eye of the beholder. Personally I think working in an integrated environment is wonderful. However I do both design and fabrication so I truly need both. If you have people that really only do CAM then integration may not be for you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DareBee

4) SW is incredible software. If you are willing to spend the bucks every year and a couple of G for training, GO for it! You will love it. IMO it is an unnecessary expense for your purpose.

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Another thing to consider is that having SW may allow you to diversify your service offerings. I know you (the OP) said you are only a machine shop and not a design firm, but you may find that having design capability is more useful than you originally thought.


C|

Originally Posted by BurrMan

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If you are ready to toolpath a part you had to clean up, you cant move on to a new model until all cam is done and code is ready. (drip feeding I guess could be separate?)

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That may be true with some CAM systems. However, HSMWorks is truly multi-Threaded. You can continue to work on your file or other files while toolpaths are being calculated.

As far as drip feeding, if you are referring to DNC that is handled by a separate application (HSMWorks edit) so again, no loss of the interface here either.

To see this in action check out the following video:

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTKNb-N3v14&feature=BFa&list=PLB9ED42C44F1F7C18]HSMWORKS - INTRO TO 3D MACHINING - YouTube[/ame]

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Originally Posted by DareBee
3) Having your CAM tied to your CAD will always force you to buy service packs for both softwares and gives very little benefit. Any 3D CAM I have played with has geometry tools that can be used to tweak corners, fill surfaces and what not. This will also mean that you will have to start entirely from scratch if you decide that one or the other is no good for you.

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SolidWorks addins like HSMWorks will run 3 versions back in SolidWorks. That said, why would you not stay up-to-date with your software? The improvements pay for themselves.

Quote:

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1) The purpose that you are buying SW for will also force you to spend the 1000+ every year for each seat. New SW files are not backward compatible. You will not be able to use your customers files and SW will be useless to you.

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SolidWorks 2013 supports backwards compatibility.


Training

When in comes to learning software... The world has changed. Youtube is filled with free videos. You can also find dozens of sources for on demand training for SolidWorks. (When you pick a CAD solution used by 2 million other people you will have a lot more learning resources available)


In short, all the CAM vendors will supply you with a 30-day eval. Try out each of the products. Run code on your machine... see what works best for you!

I hope this helps,

AL

(Full disclosure, I rep HSMWorks NexGenCAM, Inc. | HSMWorks Reseller - Home)

Apologies for all the cut and paste, I want to address some posts individually.

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Originally Posted by cygnus x-1

That it is. It does seem somewhat lame that anyone using SW would not be able (or willing) to provide a clean STEP/PARASOLID file for CAM purposes. But in the name of customer service it might be better to just nod and say yes, we can convert/clean up your files.

Regarding clean files, sometimes this has more to do with how the part is modeled than it does with file conversion. In the hands of an unskilled user, even SW is capable of producing models with bad surfaces.

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Most of my customers really don't mind providing a STEP file. One engineer in particular can't seem to recall that I have trouble with his SW files. I'm not worried about wasting his time, it's me sitting there with an open machine waiting on a reply that I would like a STEP file instead. That also relates to your comment about the "unskilled user". It's not necessarily the .Sldprt format or my CAM vendor that is the issue. For whatever reason that I don't understand, some models are perfect, some never work. So yes, I am in the "nod and yes I will convert for you" boat.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cygnus x-1

A trick I use sometimes (with HSMXpress) is to bring the part into an assembly and program the tool paths there. This is nice because you can leave the customers part file unmolested and can also model in any fixtures and such. The cam data is stored entirely in the assembly so if the part changes you just drop in the new part and update as necessary.

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This might take me a minute to absorb. I'm not yet familiar with assemblies but I think I gather the gist of what you are saying. The goal of the SW CAM plugin would be to maintain associativity so I don't have to rewrite the entire program if something like a bore size or an engraved part number changes. I'm sure this depends on the CAM vendor on how this is handled but the ones I've seen work something like, If this bolt circle changes I modify the pattern diameter in SW and the G-Code is regenerated on the fly or at least a simple click. I would love to integrate my fixtures into the CAM portion, not just for a visual but with collision protection as well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cygnus x-1

I would argue that you should stay up to date with any software that you use to make a living with (within reason of course). I see it as the cost of doing business. And the benefits of integration are in the eye of the beholder. Personally I think working in an integrated environment is wonderful. However I do both design and fabrication so I truly need both. If you have people that really only do CAM then integration may not be for you.

Another thing to consider is that having SW may allow you to diversify your service offerings. I know you (the OP) said you are only a machine shop and not a design firm, but you may find that having design capability is more useful than you originally thought.


C|

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I wouldn't have agreed a few years ago but since I purchased our first CAM software I've found that I have bought every new version that came out. 5 versions in 6 years so I'm basically on the "maintenance" plan anyway. I also believe that SW will be used in ways I haven't anticipated yet. Thanks for the input.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BurrMan

You may want to stay standalone with both packages.

With integration, all cam data is stored in the solidworks file. Your solidworks will be tied up by the cam side. Your cam will be tied up with solidworks.

If you are ready to toolpath a part you had to clean up, you cant move on to a new model until all cam is done and code is ready. (drip feeding I guess could be seperate?)

You should get rid of your translation issues by having the native solidworks to get a working part into whatever cam system you want. There still may be the occasional solidworks versioning issue, but you should be able to get around those.

Also, with integration, there your are, stuck.

---

Fortunately (or unfortunately) I've been the only one here for 16 years that can even operate a computer, much less CAD/CAM. I'm not extremely concerned that I will have the CAD tied up by CAM or vice versa. But I am worried that I will be "stuck" as you put. If the CAM data is stored in the drawing, well, what does that mean? I really don't know. I don't want to be in a situation where I have to dig out an old file for a minor revision and find out I can't access the CAM data because of versioning. I had not considered that before.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DareBee

A couple of thoughts from my perspective.

1) The purpose that you are buying SW for will also force you to spend the 1000+ every year for each seat. New SW files are not backward compatible. You will not be able to use your customers files and SW will be useless to you.

2) I would stop accepting SW files from the customers and trying to convert. Have them send you parasolid or step only for models and dwg for 2D. SW is extremely capable of giving you a proper converted interchange model.

3) Having your CAM tied to your CAD will always force you to buy service packs for both softwares and gives very little benefit. Any 3D CAM I have played with has geometry tools that can be used to tweak corners, fill surfaces and what not. This will also mean that you will have to start entirely from scratch if you decide that one or the other is no good for you.

4) SW is incredible software. If you are willing to spend the bucks every year and a couple of G for training, GO for it! You will love it. IMO it is an unnecessary expense for your purpose.

---

It was a tough decision to go with SolidWorks. It will be the first software we have ever bought that "requires" a maintenance plan. I'm sure this is the case at a lot of shops across the country but the people that hold the purse strings are the ones who know the least bit about what I do. I can ask for a $1,000 tool and it will be ordered overnight with no questions asked. But ask for $1,000 for a CD with software on it and suddenly I have to explain myself. (nuts)

As I said in an earlier post, this purchase is two fold - customer service and time savings. The CAM integration is entirely new to me but I can recognize the benefits. At least 1/3 of our parts need some kind of surfacing done to them but let's say I have a nice complex smooth surface to machine but then a slot gets milled through it. The 3D toolpath wants to dip down in the slot and the surface finish suffers. I'm making a big assumption here that I can simply remove that slot natively in SW a whole lot faster than patching up the holes in a separate program as I'm doing now.

And you are correct, I've never had a problem with a STEP file exported from SW. I just want to eliminate the STEP portion completely (even on my end).

In regards to having to stay up to date on both softwares, unfortunately I'm doing that already. That doesn't mean I don't see what you are saying. That's why I'm thankful for your input. This is the first top down overhaul we've ever done since we started using CAD/CAM (about 6 years ago). I want to get this right.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by inspirtech

Originally Posted by BurrMan


That may be true with some CAM systems. However, HSMWorks is truly multi-Threaded. You can continue to work on your file or other files while toolpaths are being calculated.

As far as drip feeding, if you are referring to DNC that is handled by a separate application (HSMWorks edit) so again, no loss of the interface here either.

To see this in action check out the following video:

SolidWorks addins like HSMWorks will run 3 versions back in SolidWorks. That said, why would you not stay up-to-date with your software? The improvements pay for themselves.




SolidWorks 2013 supports backwards compatibility.


Training

When in comes to learning software... The world has changed. Youtube is filled with free videos. You can also find dozens of sources for on demand training for SolidWorks. (When you pick a CAD solution used by 2 million other people you will have a lot more learning resources available)


In short, all the CAM vendors will supply you with a 30-day eval. Try out each of the products. Run code on your machine... see what works best for you!

I hope this helps,

AL

(Full disclosure, I rep HSMWorks NexGenCAM, Inc. | HSMWorks Reseller - Home)

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Yes, it does help Al. HSMWorks is one of the first I want to try. I would have demoed it already if I had SW.

You brought up an excellent point about the user base. I'm entirely self taught. From learning machining in my father's home machine shop, to hand written G-code, to Macro programming, to CAD, and finally to CAM. Simply put, I'm in my mid 30's now and I'm not as swift as I used to be. The sheer volume of users is going to be a nice edge.

Thanks for the info and the disclosure ;)

I'm with the other that say that you will soon find many uses for Solidworks rather than just file conversions. I think it's well worth the money and effort to learn.

If HSMWorks performs as well as HSMExpress, you will not be disappointed. It's excellent software that runs flawlessly inside of Solidworks, and yes, the tool paths are parametric, just like the Solidworks model. If you change your model, all you have to do is update the tool paths to reflect the changes. (assuming you didn't add or edit features that require your machining strategy to change)

Good Luck!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SBC Cycle

...I'm not worried about wasting his time, it's me sitting there with an open machine waiting on a reply that I would like a STEP file instead. That also relates to your comment about the "unskilled user". It's not necessarily the .Sldprt format or my CAM vendor that is the issue. For whatever reason that I don't understand, some models are perfect, some never work. So yes, I am in the "nod and yes I will convert for you" boat.

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Yeah, I totally know what you mean. Sometimes it's faster to just work with what you get the first time than having to play email tag for a different file format.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SBC Cycle

This might take me a minute to absorb. I'm not yet familiar with assemblies but I think I gather the gist of what you are saying. The goal of the SW CAM plugin would be to maintain associativity so I don't have to rewrite the entire program if something like a bore size or an engraved part number changes. I'm sure this depends on the CAM vendor on how this is handled but the ones I've seen work something like, If this bolt circle changes I modify the pattern diameter in SW and the G-Code is regenerated on the fly or at least a simple click. I would love to integrate my fixtures into the CAM portion, not just for a visual but with collision protection as well.

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You pretty much have it with the tool path associativity.

So in SW a "part" file generally contains a single body (although it doesn't have to), and an "assembly" file is simply a collection of parts arranged in whatever way you like. HSMWorks (and I would assume others) allows you to store you CAM data in either part files or assembly files. Assembly files are nice because you can model clamps and fixtures as parts and drop them in along with the part to be made. And once the tool paths are setup you can drop in different parts as needed, and reuse existing operations. As long as a part feature is edited and not deleted and recreated, tool path associativity is maintained.

And yes, you can take advantage of collision detection.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SBC Cycle

Fortunately (or unfortunately) I've been the only one here for 16 years that can even operate a computer, much less CAD/CAM.

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Job security? :rainfro:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SBC Cycle

But I am worried that I will be "stuck" as you put. If the CAM data is stored in the drawing, well, what does that mean? I really don't know. I don't want to be in a situation where I have to dig out an old file for a minor revision and find out I can't access the CAM data because of versioning.

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What you're talking about here would be forward compatibility not backwards compatibility. AFAIK any version of SW can open any file created with an older version of SW, and I'm pretty sure the same would be true for the CAM plugins. Unless you try to open a file that's REALLY old I doubt you would ever run into this. And at that point I think you might want to reprogram it anyway.

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Originally Posted by SBC Cycle

I can ask for a $1,000 tool and it will be ordered overnight with no questions asked. But ask for $1,000 for a CD with software on it and suddenly I have to explain myself. (nuts)

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Sometimes people fail to understand that software is a tool, just like a screwdriver.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SBC Cycle

At least 1/3 of our parts need some kind of surfacing done to them but let's say I have a nice complex smooth surface to machine but then a slot gets milled through it. The 3D toolpath wants to dip down in the slot and the surface finish suffers. I'm making a big assumption here that I can simply remove that slot natively in SW a whole lot faster than patching up the holes in a separate program as I'm doing now.

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Most likely you would be able to do as you say, but it will of course depend on how the part was modeled to begin with. In the best case you could simply "turn off" the slot feature and create the surfacing tool paths. In the worst case you might still have to do some patching. But either way it will still most probably be easier than what you're doing now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SBC Cycle

And you are correct, I've never had a problem with a STEP file exported from SW. I just want to eliminate the STEP portion completely (even on my end).

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Another nice thing is that with the SW file you get a glimpse into the design intent, whereas you don't always get that with a non-parametric model.

C|

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Originally Posted by SBC Cycle

Yes, it does help Al. HSMWorks is one of the first I want to try. I would have demoed it already if I had SW.

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I'm pretty sure you can install SW on an evaluation basis for 30 days along with HSMWorks. This way you can kick the tires free of charge.

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Originally Posted by SBC Cycle

You brought up an excellent point about the user base. I'm entirely self taught. From learning machining in my father's home machine shop, to hand written G-code, to Macro programming, to CAD, and finally to CAM. Simply put, I'm in my mid 30's now and I'm not as swift as I used to be. The sheer volume of users is going to be a nice edge.

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I'm self taught at nearly everything I do and wouldn't have it any other way. :D

HSMWorks has a nice support forum and even the developers hang out there. (Shocking, I know! :eek:)


C|

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cygnus x-1

I'm pretty sure you can install SW on an evaluation basis for 30 days along with HSMWorks. This way you can kick the tires free of charge.


I'm self taught at nearly everything I do and wouldn't have it any other way. :D

HSMWorks has a nice support forum and even the developers hang out there. (Shocking, I know! :eek:)


C|

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I just learned that I could install SW and HSMWorks for an evaluation, DOH!

Lucky for me I don't have to eval SW, we mailed our check yesterday to a local reseller and I should have it by Monday. :banana:

I really look forward to spending some time in this forum. When I get a little more familiar with the program and I'm not too hobbled by my newb status, I will be making the rounds on the CAM plugins. Thanks for all the assistance!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SBC Cycle

Fortunately (or unfortunately) I've been the only one here for 16 years that can even operate a computer, much less CAD/CAM. I'm not extremely concerned that I will have the CAD tied up by CAM or vice versa. But I am worried that I will be "stuck" as you put. If the CAM data is stored in the drawing, well, what does that mean? I really don't know. I don't want to be in a situation where I have to dig out an old file for a minor revision and find out I can't access the CAM data because of versioning. I had not considered that before.

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Oh, really!!!!! Uh, I guess I wasn't important enough to you.LOL.

I/we have SW here, and you probably know more them me, with your mad skills. It's really easy to use, for the basic stuff. SW is so powerful it's not funny, the hard part is learning everything it can do. How can you turn your back on BobCad??!!

Stampede.

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Originally Posted by Stampede

Oh, really!!!!! Uh, I guess I wasn't important enough to you.LOL.

I/we have SW here, and you probably know more them me, with your mad skills. It's really easy to use, for the basic stuff. SW is so powerful it's not funny, the hard part is learning everything it can do. How can you turn your back on BobCad??!!

Stampede.

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DOH! (chair) Well, if I could have had you for more than an hour and a half a day - I only can dream of where we could be! No dis to you my friend, you know exactly what I'm talking about and I think the old guy wishes he had your experience here now.

I have no problem with BobCAD. You could use it, I could use it. I just can't get anyone else to be even interested in it. Maybe it was because I didn't have any preconceptions about it or experience with CAM before, who knows. Bottom line, if I stay with BobCAD I'll still be the only one using it a year from now.

Role reversal time: I see you live in my area, care to give me some tips on how to use this here SW :D (Seriously)

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Originally Posted by SBC Cycle

I can ask for a $1,000 tool and it will be ordered overnight with no questions asked. But ask for $1,000 for a CD with software on it and suddenly I have to explain myself. (nuts)

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This made me laugh. We have so many turning inserts in stock the local dealer uses us as their warehouse, but convincing my boss to get solid works was like asking for a space shuttle ticket to the moon.

I was in a symposium for SolidWorks put together by "Go Engineer" and they are using Solid Cam within the software, therefore you will not need Master-cam. The nice thing about this feature is it can improve the Mfg. time by using simple ways to configure the "G" code to optimum config.plus it has many features that
I strongly suggest you try it out before buying.
Good luck.

John