Use Machine Shop vs. Buying Machine

I work in the maintenance department of a "paper processing" company with 120+ employees. Currently we send any machine work we need done out to a local machine shop. This is usually 2-4 (sometime more) pieces a month. Most of the work is modifying an existing metal block or making a spacer etc... Most of the the work is fairly simple.

I am trying to find out if it would be worth it to buy a mill or etc.. or keep using a machine shop. Currently the only things we have in our shop is a junk Jet drill press, a vertical ban saw, a horizontal ban saw, welders, and plasma cutter. We would still send out the "big jobs" but for emergency repairs and making spacers and the little things. I don't think its worth the trouble of having to drive 10 min to a machine shop then having to drive back a few hours later to pick a part up.

What are your thoughts on this?

I'm new to machining and don't really know how much they change per hour to do work. I have been told the main reason we don't get a mill is the cost of tooling (bits and etc..) and that our time (the maintenance dept's) is worth more. I don't believe that... Hell, I work 3rd shift and sit around the shop 1/3 of the time anyways, might as well get some machining done.

A point not mentioned often times is farming out the work also farms out the liabilty of screwing up. If your company buys a mill and you make a mistake while using it, your company will pay you twice to make one part. If the outside vendor errs, your company still only pays once.

Tools, tool holders, and work holding can accumulate in a hurry also. I have 45 tool holders originally purchased for average $100 each including retention knobs. I also have 7 vises which were $350 each. This does not include actual cutting tools. Then there's the coolant and way lube. The related compressed air plumbing and wiring. So, the related stuff to make a machine usable is not insignificant.

With such a low quantity of parts, it's going to take years to pay off the investment. Estimate $8K alone for a decent mill setup.

I find that a lathe is just as important as mill, so double that.

Don't forget the cost of the learning curve. If you don't have any one that has machining experience you can expect more than your fair share of broken cutters(pronounced machine repairs) and scrap parts.

:cheers:

I think you need to read between the lines; or at least read the last line: "I work 3rd shift and sit around the shop 1/3 of the time anyways, might as well get some machining done." I think what imp22b is looking for are some good arguments to present to the bean-counters to justify getting a machine to play with during the quiet of the 3rd shift. You-all are not helping coming up with reasons why it is not a good idea; whose side are you on? The Bean-Counters!!! :D :D

Actually I'm on his side.

I know what these bean counters are like. They're always hesitant to invest in new ideas, and when they do, they expect an immediate return. If imp22b requires $10K down, he'd better figure out a way to make all that money back in 4 months. Too much pressure if you ask me.

It's a job. Sitting around is a good thing.

Hi I'm in a situation not too unlike this one. It's all in the pros and cons; if you get enough machine time, in a few months you will be able to compete with the outsourced guys on the small easy stuff, but with a greater turn around. I also point out that to pay a contractor you must add on the taxes. You need to earn $1.50 to pay $1.00 (depends on tax rate) and office costs too often left out. Basic tooling is not a big deal. If a production machine is down for something simple; organising, driving, pick up and fitting costs heaps. If you can do it yourself, minutes, I've had machines for something as simple as a washer or small shaft, down for a long time; sometimes contractors cannot just drop what they are doing. I am now logging all my work to put a proposel for a cnc machine. We are all manual at the moment. it's not just now, I'm looking to the future, more capability will mean better performance with less. But if we don't start now we won't have the skills to move forward; so even if it's not justified now it may change a lot sooner to be the best thing you have done!

Look for another thread asking which cnc machine should I buy in the near future. :-)

I feel that there are benefits of machining in house that are far less obvious, such as: When you have the ability to manufacture your own parts, you not only gain control of many downtime situations, but you suddenly become aware of improvements to processes that you would have otherwise overlooked previously.

I find this to be true concerning electrical controls as well. A few well placed rungs of ladder logic can represent seconds or even minuets of reduced cycle time. Of course initial productivity is not the only benefit of upgrades; safety, ergonomics, reduced rework, uniformity, and many other areas can be improved upon when maintenance personnel take a more active roll in the manufacturing process.

My vote is get yourself a fully equipt mavhine shop in house!
If the business uses extensive machinery to produce their products full time, then those machines will breakdown over time, when not running, they are not making money!

A shop can be acquired a little at a time, and the most expensive items should be obtained first! Like a lathe proportionate to the machines you are using, and a bridgeport mill. All the accessories and attachments can be obtained as used items on eBay for much less than new!

As stated earlier, the current processes being used can be improved upon by making things a little better as they are repaired! In time, the machine shop will be vital part of the business!

I would say skip the bridgeport and go straight for a small used CNC.

By the time you buy boring heads and all the tooling to make a conventional bridgeport worthy enough to produce the specialty parts that may break, you could justify a CNC.

Additionally the part programs can be saved, for future runs or improvement modifications. Go with a CNC mill, you can usually start off with a conventional lathe and make a judgment call on that issue later.

I have just been to a trade show here in melboure australia. I was ammased at the ammount of cheap mannual machines that was on offer. a reasonable size lathe and mill can be had for arround $10 000 ea brand new. basic tooling wasnt that expensive, for a reasonable sized company we are not talking big dollars it wont take huge cuts and live to long but with care they wont fall apart. I have not had nc exp but most jobbing shop still have manuals too. i think these would be a exelent place to start.

BTW..... have some great glossy mags to show the boss
Mmmmmmmm cnc lathe look what i could do with this boss!!!!
can i have one can i can i pleeeeeese!
(probably tell me to bugger off and stop dreaming) :)

I've heard that you can pick up new Fadal vertical machine center w/o covers for around $20k. I would imagine you could pick one up used for less.

Try cutting a piece with a bolt pattern on a manual mill, okay. Try cutting an odd pocket or a groove for a gasket seal and your going to likely take two days, so much for reducing down time. Try to thread mill an odd diameter hole like many mfg’s will use, or a cam………. I could go on and on.

You can do a lot with a properly tooled manual mill and an ace machinist. There are many other things that arise you can’t. Having a CNC wont preclude the need for skills by any means, but if you screw up a part on the last operation, you will fix the program, reload a new billet and press go. If you trash the manually made part, you will start over completely.

Get a CNC VMV!

I was at the machine show to look at what cnc lathes were around and at what price. a haas teach lathe and a number of others were on display. the price was around the $55k to $70k range (chinese inc) i didnt see any under that. (im looking for 1.5m between centre 400mm swing or there abouts) 20k seems a great price. especialy as we are all new to cnc a cheap entry is what i think is desirable. once the machine is proven its worth we would be in a better position to extend capability with a better (more expensive) machine/machines are lathes moro expensive than vmcs? ill have to look up fadal. :)

have not put a submition to the boss yet. have a meeting on the 20th to see if i can convince them is a proposition worth consideration.

I believe CNC lathes are more expensive than CNC vertical machining centers generally.

I had a conversation recently with a machine tool salesman who told me about the deal on a brand new Fadal VMC w/o covers for +$20k. I know if you go to Haas’s website their smaller machines list for around $40k with covers, but I understand that if you are willing to be flexible and buy what is more readily available you can usually get decent discounts. Personally concerning a lathe, I would look for a used, something 1999-2004. You should be able to get something less than $35k easily.

Also check out auction houses such as www.hilcoind.com. I know they are having an auction that contains several lathes on June 21st. They will not tell you what items sell for unless you are part of the bidding process. One way to get a feel for the prices is to either attend an auction, participate online, or via phone.

You can always look at e-bay, but I have found that most sellers are asking fairly top dollar for used CNC equipment in the auctions themselves. Instead look further down the list, below the auctions at the e-bay stores. These sellers usually seem to be more realistic.

Beware of rigging and shipping costs when buying used. Even if you are buying from within your same state you could spend between $3k to $10k for rigging and shipping. Sometimes you can negotiate these costs out with a new purchase.

I had considerd the second hand route, but i am taking a large personal risk with this idea!!!!!! The guys I work with don't see the benefit of new tech. The old "we have always done it that way" applies. Most have worked in the one co for life or on average 17 years. Change is not always recieved well. New management however, in the last 12 months has been trying to change hearts and minds. The problem is they dont have practical experence and rely on us to solve problems (fitters). I have dealt with a lot of contractors in my past job with cnc so I have an idea of what they can do but no hands on. With a second hand machine I just don't know what I'm looking at; condidion/ wear/function etc.
I'm thinking new as I would get install/set up/training/back up and hopefully
don't end up with a white elephant and get the "I told you so" from the guys "way to blow $35k we told you to buy a manual machine" (and keep my job). Management seems to be supportive of any new ideas, we are a mid size co and do have some money to invest in new equipment but in the past maintence has had no new investment and is pretty run down but, you gotta start somewhere. :)

I would seriously consider Haas machines. They are among the cheapest to purchase and they have a huge presence in the U.S., Mazak may be second. Mazak is a more robust machine, a feature which you will pay for.

I will try and save you some hassle by giving you the normal pro’s and con’s you would hear among machinists:

The press you will hear concerning Hass usually like this:

Haas machines are to light.
To which I would reply. It depends on what you are doing with the machine. If you are taking off large cuts and still trying to maintain superior accuracy. Yes Hass being a medium weight machine will fall short relative to a heavier machine.

Haas uses linear rails instead of boxed ways, (referring to the bearing surfaces of the axes).
To which I would reply. Linear ways themselves do not make a negative difference in performance. It’s usually due to the fact that lighter machines often use linear rails in lieu of boxed ways. So this point usually goes back to argument #1. I personally see a major benefit in using linear rails over boxed ways. You can replace a linear rail with an off the shelf part and it’s a fairly straight forward operation. Boxed ways although they may last 25% longer will have to be reworked, which is an expensive and laborious process, and one for only a career machine rebuilder to tackle.

The benefits are: variety, price, service and support.
Variety: They have machining centers (cnc mills) and turning centers (cnc lathes), both in a variety of sizes.
Price: they are known for being on the low end of the price spectrum. Let your dealer know that you are very price concise and find a worthy competitor to help create an atmosphere of competition consequently you should do much better than list price. You may also decide to buy a more stripped down unit to get better pricing. Also don’t overlook the preowned route, for which you can still get support and training.
Service: Look at their website and see the list price of standard repairs, pretty impressive.
Support: See the website, they are the #1 in sales and therefore have a number of support options where smaller companies with comparably priced machines will not.

There are a number of other things to consider, I would begin talking to at least three dealers. Go to the Haas website, and maybe Fadal and Mazak. Find dealers in your area for each. These dealers will likely carry other brands as well. You should have lots of options using this method.

I think you are looking for both a machine center and a turning center. It would serve you best to go with the same brand of controller on both, this will help shorten the learning curve and if the actual machines are the same brand, you will likely get better pricing as well.