The Coming Climate Change

Dang,
Pull your head out of it. There isn't a consensus of scientists, only those nursing on the government teat. (our tax money) There have been no scientific methods applied, no repeatable experiments.

Not even observation bears out this trash masquerading as science, for example: " 50 million years ago the temperature averaged a full 20 degrees higher than today."

This is an observation by those same scientists. Was mankind also responsible for that? How about the melting of any one of the ice ages?

The above indicated "paper" has some VERY telling passages.

".........need to treat the argument as having been won. This means simply behaving as if climate change exists and is real, and that individual actions are effective. This must be done by stepping away from the ‘advocates debate’ described earlier, rather than by stating and re-stating these things as fact.
The ‘facts’ need to be treated as being so taken-for-granted that they need not be spoken. The certainty of the Government’s new climate-change slogan – ‘Together this generation will tackle climate change’ (Defra 2006) – gives an example of this approach. It constructs, rather than claims, its own factuality.

But go ahead and have another glass of cool aid, after all it IS your religion.

I'm un-subsribing from this thread.

Whether global warming is real and whether the polar ice caps are melting because we are emitting too much co2 or from deforesting the equator or from natural causes, we all know that we are polluting this world and causing the extinction of species on a massive scale. I know that I have thrown out enough manmade garbage in the course of my 35 years to cover 10 acres and then some. All that while recycling everything I can. Each of my neighbors does the same thing whether it's two bags a week or four or ten. The air is not good in the city(pick a city). The water is not good in rural areas downstream from the city. The oil that we burn also spills into the ocean sometimes so the beaches we treasure aren't any good either.
Mariss, as a person who lives because of the earth not on it, I have to say I was a bit offended by this statement:

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My friend, you have been manipulated. No amount of 747s or i-pods, cars, plasma TVs or CNC machines differentiate you from our ancestors who also were equally susceptible. Here's how the manipulation works: First put into your head a tremendous calamity is looming. The cause of the calamity is something you are doing and therefore you are responsible for it. You are then offered a way you can deflect the calamity by doing something personally, as an individual, to rectify it. Something like separating green waste from glass and cardboard in your trash or buying a Prius; doesn't matter.

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I also happen to drive a Prius and also happen to be the kind of guy who separates green waste from glass and cardboard. The reason I like machining is because of the technology that it makes possible. If you can dream something you can build it. Like a Prius for example,which might just save you some money on gas, further the advancement of technology, reduce our country's dependance on oil, and save you from sucking on your own fumes at red lights. The power to build machines such as automobiles and warheads brings great responsibility. Mariss, I hope you are running your company in a responsible way. Anyone who owns a business has an ideal opportunity to make a difference today and tomorrow. And maybe even impress a few potential customers along the way.

Had it not been for fossil fuels the industrial revolution would never have occurred. You owe every thing you have, even your very existence to the discovery and utilization of them.

Any one offended by Mariss' statement is LOOKING for something to be offended about.

Didn't mean to hurt your feelings,Dang! Just wanted to make you think.

Grinderdust,

Please don't take offense at Mariss' statements. If you must take offense at any statements made here, take offense at mine. You see, Mariss is correct, although it doesn't "feel" that way to you when you look out on those 10 acres of non-recyclable trash, and hop into your Prius for a trip around the block. If every single one of us, alive on this planet today, were to only use our personal vehicles for trips that other people weren't making, or that public transit won't approach, if we were all to only purchase what was absolutely necessary, if we were to stop clear-cutting our rainforests, if we were to stop strip mining, and drilling for oil, and building new subdivisions and luxury condo units, if we only did what has been suggested by every "liberal" media print outlet from Mother Earth News to Mother Jones and all points in between...what would we have? The greatest economic disaster ever known. What would everyone do for a living & how would they collect their wages? Or even their supplies? Would any of this stop the next super-fire from devouring California's expensive summer homes? Would this halt or counteract the "demon" CO2?

While I agree that man is foolish and brazen with his use of technology to "fix" problems that never really existed, I don't think we should chuck it all in the waste bin and redact 10,000 years of history. Do I like the fact that compounds from Teflon are in ALL available drinking sources currently known? Absolutely not. Do I like the fact that triclosan, the ingredient in "anti-bacterial" hand soap is hitching a ride on our DNA, and is impossible to remove from our drinking water? Would I mention it if I did? Do I like the fact that big "agra" managed to lose track of 30 million bushels of genetically modified corn that then made it's way into the human food supply chain? Come on...

I didn't make those decisions. I am not responsible for the actions of others. I will not do penance for others' sins. Be careful with what actions you demand of others, lest the sins of the fathers be visited on the sons. Sound familiar? Religious undertones. You bet. And that is basically the phrase that is being repackaged & bantered about by the neo-greenies as a scare-tactic. Hypocrisy knows no bounds. Were that it did.

You see, 10,000 years ago, when the last ice age was still going on, attempting to recede, and our ancestors lived in clans and caves, we would overhunt an area until we were forced to move on in search of greener pastures. When the Native Americans of ancient times were hunting the bison, they would set fire to the prairie to make the bison stampede off a cliff. While they were busy butchering the dead & dying herd at the bottom of a ravine, that fire was ravaging the prairies, sometimes burning for months. Don't think that man's destructive capabilities are only available to modern man with modern tools. We are a very clever lot who have been "harming" mother earth for a very long time. Earth abides. When she tires of us, she will shrug her shoulders and shake us off. The few humans who survive will have to rethink their ways, or will go extinct like so many other species have. Only we have the ability to learn from our mistakes, through reason. Abandoning reasoning has no benefit for our kind.

Dear jhowelb,

http://www.countryguardian.net/warm_words.pdf

Well, when I first read it, I thought it must be a spoof.
It is not.
It is a paper of breath-taking cynicism that attempts to circumvent any kind of scientific debate.
Joseph Goebbels would be proud that the art of this kind of propaganda has survived so long after his death.

Best wishes,

Martin

Yes, just to surface as a plan to subject mankind to another myth. (super race/man made climate change)

Same dream, (global domination), same "scientific" basis but this time perpetrated by those on the left and still "the big lie" repeated often enough and by "authority" to make believers.

The difference is that this time there are many to cry "foul"!

BTW, I didn't find the web page!!

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Originally Posted by jhowelb

BTW, I didn't find the web page!!

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Dear jhowelb,

Which?

Best wishes,

Martin

Jhowelb,

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Had it not been for fossil fuels the industrial revolution would never have occurred.

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I believe the steam engine may still have been used without coal. I also read somewhere that the diesel engine was designed to run on vegetable oil. I've seen many a lathe that was designed to run on steam power and refitted to run on electric power as the technology became available.

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You owe every thing you have, even your very existence to the discovery and utilization of them.

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I can't imagine that mankind owes it's very existence to the events that have shaped the last 150 years or so.
WYLD,

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what would we have? The greatest economic disaster ever known. What would everyone do for a living & how would they collect their wages? Or even their supplies?

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Many of us have found ways to benefit from the earths riches without exploiting them.

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I am not responsible for the actions of others. I will not do penance for others' sins. Be careful with what actions you demand of others,

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I have not demanded any actions that I am aware of. I am Sorry to everyone If It came out that way. I am only suggesting that we can be responsible,and it doesn't require a great deal of sacrifice. Sometimes it even has immediate benefits.(like a car that pays for itself in fuel savings) By the way, every breath you take and every time you go for a drink, you are doing penance for the sins of others.

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we would overhunt an area until we were forced to move on in search of greener pastures.

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This may have been more of a survival issue than the decision of whether to turn on the central air or what car to drive.

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We are a very clever lot who have been "harming" mother earth for a very long time.

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If we were so clever, we would make better use of our technology to stop harming the world we live in.

Bait and switch, exaggerate, obfuscate, redirect, misdirect, deny something that was not directed to you, take from context and attack the punctuation rater than the obvious intended point.

All OLD tricks and not working here.

Electricity generated by what? Steam generated by what? The forests of Europe were striped to make steel and steam.

One person or even a generation doesn't equate to "mankind".

While you benefit from, I on the other hand am defined as an "exploiter"?


Martin, why can't you find the url you placed in your post?

http://www.countryguardian.net/warm_words.pdf

I am not trying to offend anyone or be offended here. I am not trying to take things out of context. I am just giving my opinion. I truly believe that we can live in a better world without sacrificing our comfort or our economy. We simply must think about the things we are doing before we do them. That would be good policy mo matter what. I think we can all agree that we are doing damage and not all of that damage is necessary to our comfort. Whatever level of luxury you desire in life, there are still little things you can do and choices you can make to make the world a better place. If you still feel as though you need to trash the world and the people who are trying to show you what is going on with the world then feel free to flame away. By the way, some of you sound as if you are advocating the limitless use of resources for the short term financial benefit and the comfort of those who are fortunate enough to be at the right place at the right time.

FINALLY, an element of common sense.
"I truly believe that we can live in a better world without sacrificing our comfort or our economy. "
The USA leads the world in cleaning our messes. Can we do better? Yes and we can encourage the third world to a cleaner path.

When it is economically feasible another major source of energy will become predominate.

There are those who want to scuttle atomic, hydro-electric and fossil.
Even wind energy proponents say NIMBY (Ted Kennedy et al).

My God, we can't go back to the stone age!!

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Originally Posted by grinderdust

WYLD,
Many of us have found ways to benefit from the earths riches without exploiting them.

I have not demanded any actions that I am aware of. I am Sorry to everyone If It came out that way. I am only suggesting that we can be responsible,and it doesn't require a great deal of sacrifice. Sometimes it even has immediate benefits.(like a car that pays for itself in fuel savings) By the way, every breath you take and every time you go for a drink, you are doing penance for the sins of others.

If we were so clever, we would make better use of our technology to stop harming the world we live in.

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Grinderdust...some of that circular and "can't see the forest for the trees" logic that I love so well. What is the added premium for the privilege to purchase a Prius? Ie, without state or federal subsidies to the manufacturers and purchasers. And what pray-tell will we do with all those lead-acid batteries in hybrids when they have reached their terminal service life? You're telling me that you have to purchase a Hollywood "image" car to conserve fuel, or to get great fuel economy? A VW Beetle circa '65 managed 45 mpg...and what does the Toyota Prius manage? With it's whiz-bang technology? Please, come back with something that has some real meat to it, I'm tired of chewing on synth-meat aka tofu.

Bleeding Christ nailed to a ships-mast, since when did CO2 become a pollutant? Plant more trees. Stop clear-cutting. Stop letting 3rd world countries violate the earth in their goal to become 1st world superpowers. Carbon sequestration, carbon-offsets...

How about a real solution? We stop importing from China & India. We stop helping out every 3rd world nation in the world. We let them starve to death from the impending famines and breed themselves to instability. When the earth no longer has to support 6 Billion humans, all of this nonsense will come to light. I shouldn't have to lower my quality of life because Habib Singh and Charlie Xang can't provide for their offspring. And I shouldn't have to turn off my lights, because the countries they live in are consuming quanities of fuel that were undreamable even in the heyday of American gluttony. I shouldn't have to sacrifice so others can say "so sorry" and continue on with their idiotic ways.

The problem isn't just with the propaganda, it's the solutions to a problem that has no definable structure. Global warming is the equivalent of seafoam. Give me something with a discernable shape, a skeleton, and a neural pathway. When I can "see" that, I'll be willing to play ball with all the looney tune ad-libs that pour out of ignorant frothing mouths.

I think we should change the name of this forum to something like "environmental interests" or hopefully something way better. The words Global Warming have become politically incorrect. There is so much debate about the exact effect of our impact that we are missing the impact itself. As far as living in a better world goes, my hybrid car is a pretty nice car in general. It seems to sacrifice nothing and even gain some. As machinists, we hold the key to developing the ideas that make other energy sources possible and economically feasable. I certainly don't want to go back to stone tools

So you drive a Pious... sorry a Prius? just a little joke........actually which one do you have?

Wyld, To answer your questions. A Prius costs somwhere around $25,000 base for a new one. Alot cheaper than a Hummer last time I checked. My state no longer offers anything to anyone for buying a prius. My prius happens to be a pre owned model from last year and I could probably sell it for more than I paid. The batteries are nickel metal hydride and there are recycling facilities available for them.They also have a 100,000 mile warranty. Since I live about as far from hollywood as you can get (or any major city for that matter) I can assure you that my purchase was made for sound financial reasons. The whiz bang technology in a prius can blow the doors off a '65 beetle while holding 5 passengers and their cargo at a level of safety and comfort that surpasses most autos in it's price range. It usually gets even better mileage in town. Plus it doesn't leave an oil spot on the driveway or make that ratty air cooled boxer sound.
That whiz bang technology is also an interesting topic of discussion. Especially the power split device which is an amazing use of mechanics to control two motors and an engine. Very ingenious, very few moving parts.

Yes, I run my business in a responsible way. I design the best product I know how, we manufacture right here in the USA and sell them at a price the Chinese find acceptable, we ship on time and we support our product after you buy it. I am responsible to make sure our lowest paid employee makes $35 an hour so they can raise a family without mom having to earn an income. It makes a difference to me if I have done my best or not for what I do and to those that work for me.

Is that what you meant by "responsible" and "make a difference"?

Mariss

I can appreciate what you are doing Mariss, I would never doubt the quality of your product or your responsibility to your employees. The kind of jobs your company keeps in the USA are priceless these days. I am just hoping that your idea of responsibility doesn't end there. Small changes in leaders like yourself lead to a big difference in the world.

All I can say is that change in this regard will be good. How much worse a situation is it going to be for us anyway? If climate change eventually is disproved, the legacy of that would be better technologies for all our benefit. And if it is real, at least we have already started the ball rolling on finding a solution (if we have not found one) that will help us eventually. So in my humble opinion, it is good what is being done right now by some environmentalists.

I don't think anyone in the right mind would want to spend countless hours away from families and friends to decipher the truth about global warming. What benefit will they get out of it. None that I can think of. If you ask me, it will the last thing I would want to do. I have better things to do in my life. But isn't it a great feeling to know that others are concern and working on our behalf?

So give them some credits is all I say. And for those of us that are skeptical, sit back and watch, you might just be surprised. And if at the end of the day its all a farce, you can always come forward and shout out "I told you so" and grin.

For me, the problem is real. Be it caused by human, geology, earth evolution and whatever terms anyone care to coin for this problem, it is still a problem. Are we doomed? Yes, we are doomed if we don't do anything.

As American Express would say it, don't leave home without it. Bring an umbrella before it rains. Prevention is better than cure. Don't wait until you need to got to the toilet to look for a roll of toilet paper. etc. etc. etc. etc.....

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Originally Posted by jhowelb

Martin, why can't you find the url you placed in your post?

http://www.countryguardian.net/warm_words.pdf

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Dear jhowelb,

Sorry, I'm not sure which link you are searching for.

Is it this?

http://www.ippr.org/publicationsandr...ion.asp?id=485

Best wishes,

Martin