CNC Brain is ready! 6-axis Double Closed Loop Controller

**Switcher,
You've got me grinning ear to ear. Excellent!

And not a bad idea. Been thinking where to put a "draw window". Could use the config to turn off some tabs. Great Idea!

**Al,
Great questions! Definitely not redundant.

The PLC would be interfaced by the PC ... but, there may be some options here. Let me think on that.

There are 18 unused I/O pins on the front of the Brain. Adding to the SDK to access those unused pins at will.

On the encoder breakout board, there are 18 more unused pins (the Brain Board and the Encoder Board are connected by a Hirose 100 pin connector. It has two ground pins, two 5VDC pins, and 96 I/O pins). And on the Brain board itself, there are another 20 that can be tapped.

That gives us a total of 56 pins for future use.

**Doug,
Excellent points!

The cycle start/hold is PC. The E-Stop has hardware and software support. Cycle/hold should have a hardware option ... fantastic idea!

The Stop can issue for the current segment. The Pause at the end of a motion.

Encoders: Digital, AB encoding, single ended. All inputs are heavily filtered for noise.

Homing is controlled by the Position Reference. The "goal" is to not have to use a "home switch" and have the machine, even open loop, re-home as it machines.

The Exact Stop/Grouped Velocity is set in the General Tab. There isn't any reason why we couldn't make that a G-Code itself so you could switch during your program. Need to think where to add that.

**All
Amazing questions! Fantastic ideas!

Very interesting product!

Seems to parallel the GREX thing that came out a while back, only in this case I suspect it is going to have a much better end result.

With just a read-through here and on your website I notice one shortfall that every CNC builder is going to complain about - the number of I/Os. I may be wrong (I hope so), but you will need to add many more I/Os to satisfy us gadget hungry builders. While the hobby folks love adding all sorts of neat toys, the industrial folks need to add the toys and features, especially in the safety and interlock areas. From what I can see so far, the few dedicated I/Os will be barely enough to get a machine up and running and moving.

Otherwise it sure seems to be a good product and well thoughout and executed. I will be watching this close as I was about to purchase a smooth stepper to interface with MACH. Your product seems to have advantages over both that make me want to stop and reconsider.

Very cool, I can't wait to see this when it reaches maturity.

Chris

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brccrb

The Exact Stop/Grouped Velocity is set in the General Tab. There isn't any reason why we couldn't make that a G-Code itself so you could switch during your program. Need to think where to add that.

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Mach3 uses G61 for exact stop and G64 for constant velocity. I'd keep them the same, with a setting somewhere else for the type of CV your using (grouped or regular mode).

**Chris,
Thanks for the great comments!

When it comes to the power hungry (all of us), when is anything enough? :D

On the CNC Brain are plugs for the 12 axis encoders (two for each axis with DB9 for direct plug).

There are also two DB25's, with a total of 48 pins. 18 of those are free. Inside the case, there are 18 unused that run to the encoder breakout board. And on the Brain board, another 20.

That's a total of another 56 pins that can be tapped for future use.

Now, is that enough? ... depends ... You can run more than one Brain from a PC. The Brain Board itself, which has the processors and a hirose 100 pin connector (96 I/O on the Hirose + 20 header I/O = 116 total) can be reprogrammed to be any other device as well (yes, mini-supercomputing with all those I/O via USB ... oh, and a 30MByte/sec bandwidth to the PC to boot :) ).

As for maturity, you are very right! We can't wait either. When everyone agrees on the first production version of the software/firmware, that will be a happy day! :wee:

s/Bruce

**Ger,
Your the man! Looks like we have the G-Codes defined for the mod.

On the list!

In regards to I/O, perhaps a second product would be a better option for power hungry users. Sort of a Brain I/O box. With options for analog controls (FRO and spindle speeds) and VFD control as well as digital inputs, with 24V capability. :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by brccrb

The cycle start/hold is PC. The E-Stop has hardware and software support. Cycle/hold should have a hardware option ... fantastic idea!

The Stop can issue for the current segment. The Pause at the end of a motion.

Homing is controlled by the Position Reference. The "goal" is to not have to use a "home switch" and have the machine, even open loop, re-home as it machines.

The Exact Stop/Grouped Velocity is set in the General Tab. There isn't any reason why we couldn't make that a G-Code itself so you could switch during your program. Need to think where to add that.

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Hi Bruce;

Cycle start, feed hold, and estop should be wired directly to the brain in accordance with IEC/NEC best practices. You can let the brain notify the PC of an event rather than have the PC notify the brain.

What you are calling "pause" appears to stop motion as if it were in single block mode. This is a useful control but feed hold should generate an immediate controlled (decellerated) stop. If your cycle start event allows the control to continue where it left off after a cycle stop then you effectively have a feed hold. Is this the case?

Homing to a position reference is only as good as the accuracy/repeatability of that reference. If it is tied to an encoder signature then it should be sufficient. I like your thinking here.

I agree with the previous post that exact stop and continuous motion should be in gcode. Virtually every commercial control defaults to continuous mode (usually G64) with exact stop as a modal command (usually G61) for machining to a wall.

I caution you to avoid the trap of calling G64 "constant velocity" as that is not at all what it does. "Maximum allowable corner deviation" is probably a better definition.

It looks like you are off to a good start. Pay careful attention to how the big names in industry do things and you will avoid problems down the road.

Doug

Hello to all,
I am trying to make a decision and I do not know which way to go. I have a couple cnc mills running 50 hrs a week and I need one more. I have an amazing 4 axis horiz mill from 1986 with 48 tool changer 10,000 rpm spindle, coolant thru spindle and much more. This is a Swiss mill called the Wahli w-50, it is one of the most accurate mills ever made. It has a G.E. 2000 control that has some type of error nobody can tell me whats wrong. I was thinking of putting mach 3 control but I know I can lose some accuracy but now the cnc brain is out! Anybody out there can tell me the complexity of this retrofit. I am aware of all the toolchanger issues, pallet changer, ridgid tapping, but will it be such a hassle to hook these up? I am very creative and have an ok knowledge of electronics but I tend to shy away from any programming besides g-code. This machine has d.c. servos and linear scales but I cant seem to find encoders on the servos. It has Siemens drivers and Siemens dc spindle drive, are these analog. Has anybody ever done this?

J

**Doug,
In all deepest sincerity, thank you!!!

The EStop is there, will add the others ASAP.

Will take all the knowledge and wisdom you are kind enough to impart. I'm listening, intensely.

And yes, the "stop" works to decellerate the axis, which leaves the software pointing at the G-Code line to resume. Now, just need to clean it up with the hardware interface with your improvements.

**Ger,
You've got me thinking. Hmmm :)

What we need to do is partner with someone who already makes reasonably priced interface electronics (no sense re-inventing wheel). Then we can connect our dots and theirs to an affordable solution. We'll wrap it in the Control Panel + SDK + Brain(or I/O version) so it will be simple to use and change.

Best of both worlds.

**JNFSWE,
Your in the right place! These guys know *EVERYTHING*.

I'm not familiar with your machine, but the Brain uses vb script to control the tool changer. Be glad to help any way I can.

Tool changers, Pallet changers etc typically use a raft of I/O, and the same with the degree of logic required to program.
It is possible the Linear scales were the only feedback to the controller, IIRC the 2000 did not have dual feed back capability?
The Servo/spindle drives are very likely analogue, as this was typical for these M/C's.
Rigid tapping requires the use of a spindle encoder, which you should already have.
If indeed the loop is closed back to the controller, then it should be possible to use non-intelligent drives, such as you have, but the analogue control would be a bonus as the majority of older machines use these or any of the new torque mode drives that would do the job.
Al.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JNFSWE

It has a G.E. 2000 control that has some type of error nobody can tell me whats wrong. I was thinking of putting mach 3 control but I know I can lose some accuracy but now the cnc brain is out! Anybody out there can tell me the complexity of this retrofit. I am aware of all the toolchanger issues, pallet changer, ridgid tapping, but will it be such a hassle to hook these up? This machine has d.c. servos and linear scales but I cant seem to find encoders on the servos. It has Siemens drivers and Siemens dc spindle drive, are these analog. Has anybody ever done this?
J

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Tool changers, Pallet changers etc typically use a raft of I/O, and the same with the degree of logic required to program.
It is possible the Linear scales were the only feedback to the controller, IIRC the 2000 did not have dual feed back capability?
The Servo/spindle drives are very likely analogue, as this was typical for these M/C's.
Rigid tapping requires the use of a spindle encoder, which you should already have.
If indeed the loop is closed back to the controller, then it should be possible to use non-intelligent drives, such as you have, but the analogue control would be a bonus as the majority of older machines use these or any of the new torque mode drives that would do the job.
Al.[/QUOTE]

Al,
Thnx for reply. What is a raft I/O? Why would it be a benefit to have analogue control? I am sure I have analogue drives. What are non intelligent drives. The guy I bought the control from said the scales were etched copper? Each scale has a transformer, what is this? I am thinking to go at this at a very organized way step by step.

1) Read Schematics to get general idea of wiring scheme and take notes 8hours .

2) Take out G.E. control and label all wires from drivers, hydraulic, pnuematic toolchanger, limit switches, encoders, scales, etc. 20hrs

3) Buy the "Brain" and p.c. start wiring section by section (axis x then y then z then spindle) and then try machine. 24hrs

4) Slowly start to attack ridgid tapping and pallet changer. Then (drumroll) TOOLCHANGER. 40 hrs

5) Pick the brain of people on this forum until they bleed.

So what do you guys think can I take this on? I have built a few powersupplies, repaired a couple drivers, home amps, and lots of car and boat elec. Connected a few controls to machines that had to be moved and I am very patient.

brccrb,

I've got a bunch of ideas on how to use your CncBrain/SDK, how about hooking into an intranet to pull up g-code files. :)

Or it could have an RSS feed, to update the machine operator, like hey I need this job done ASAP.

I'm not trying to add to the wishlist with this one, just pointing out to others how valuable the SDK is.

This post was created & posted inside your SDK (I added an internal browser), I know this is the internet but, it's pretty much the same as far as browsers go.

Screenshot below.


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**Switcher,
What an amazingly great idea! See, we would never have come up with that! Yeah, since you can grab from the IE control, you could even setup jobs for it to run to pull from a web server.

On the internal/external website, you could have all the programs listed for a machine. Then, with the mouse, select the program to run. No files to move, no drives to search ... web download ... point and click to retrieve the G-Code!

The operator just looks at his screen for what part to make next, or track how many he has done or needs to do. Real time feedback between the floor and the office. Think about that!

Switcher, you just added the beginnings of a web based, machining factory floor manager! :banana:

Awesome idea!

True but who will support this great network?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JNFSWE

What is a raft I/O? Why would it be a benefit to have analogue control? I am sure I have analogue drives. What are non intelligent drives. The guy I bought the control from said the scales were etched copper? Each scale has a transformer, what is this? I am thinking to go at this at a very organized way step by step.

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Raft is an American term meaning large quantity. You need a lot of I/O (input/output) to operate a tool changer.

Non-intelligent drives respond to an analog signal - typically +/- 10 volts. They do not have the ability to process other data. Your machine most likely has analog (non-intelligent) drives. Adapting them to a step/direction CNC is possible but not advisable. I am not aware of any step/direction controller at this time that is capable of rigid tapping.

If your machine has much value you would be better off investing in a commercial control such as a Centroid (American) or Power Automation (Germany). These will have plenty of I/O, an analog interface for your existing drives, rigid tapping, and a built-in PLC to control your tool changer.

I am not too familiar with the Centroid, but I know the Power Automation CNC is quite easy to retrofit into an existing machine. It will also meet Swedish safety standards. I don't know what they cost in Sweden, but a 4 axis control without the monitor or operator panel is about $4,000 USD. That is not much money in comparison to the potential value of your machine.

Doug

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Stevenson

True but who will support this great network?

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That would be up to each person (OEM). It could be a simple web page like below.

HTML Code:

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<html>
<head>
<title>This is a Test</title>
</head>
<body>

<a href="http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=61778&d=1213906384">Test DXF File</a>

</body>
</html>

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I see your avatar includes "Siemens", I run Siemens 840D, & on my Tool Grinding machine we have the option to enter a cell-phone number into a param., If the machine has an Alarm (say "Coolant Regeneration needed"), the machine will send a text message to the machine op. cell phone, informing them what's going on with the machine, that's good to have for jobs that take a long time, or If you are running a bunch of machines with pallets for loading/unloading & can run for hrs. without attention from the machine op., or lights out manufacturing, just get your machine running at the end of the day, & put a guy on call, If he gets a sms from the machine that needs direct attention he could go into work fix the issue, & go back home. :)

Just don't let me be that guy on call. :)


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First I would like to thank Doug and all others who have helped the past couple days.

Doug, would this retrofit take more than lets say 40-80 hours? I think I am going to sell this machine, or try to gat the G.E. control running.

J

Quote:

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originally posted by the CNC curly man:
I see your avatar includes "Siemens", I run Siemens 840D, & on my Tool Grinding machine we have the option to enter a cell-phone number into a param., If the machine has an Alarm (say "Coolant Regeneration needed"), the machine will send a text message to the machine op. cell phone, informing them what's going on with the machine, that's good to have for jobs that take a long time, or If you are running a bunch of machines with pallets for loading/unloading & can run for hrs. without attention from the machine op., or lights out manufacturing, just get your machine running at the end of the day, & put a guy on call, If he gets a sms from the machine that needs direct attention he could go into work fix the issue, & go back home.

Just don't let me be that guy on call.

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Switcher,

It's true Siemens PLM solutions can do all what you say on it's coordinated worldwide network systems. :D

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike Stevenson

Switcher,

It's true Siemens PLM solutions can do all what you say on it's coordinated worldwide network systems. :D

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And now a small shop can have what Siemens has. :)

The more folks that start posting VB.net controls, the faster/cheaper/better , our cnc projects get.

I could see a library of options to pick from, down the road (hope it's a short road). ;)


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brccrb,
If you build it they will come... :D


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Quote:

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Originally Posted by JNFSWE

Doug, would this retrofit take more than lets say 40-80 hours? I think I am going to sell this machine, or try to gat the G.E. control running.

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An experienced retrofitter who is familiar with the new control could probably do it in 50 hours. I would probably bid a job like that at 80 hours. You could spend 200 hours just learning enough to program the PLC for the tool changer.

Whether you use a CNCBrain, Mach3, or a commercial CNC, it is not a trivial task.

The advantage of doing it yourself is that you won't have to pay a service man to come fix it when it breaks. Here in the states, CNC service people charge more than the hourly operating rate for the machine, sometimes twice as much.