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2 Attachment(s)
Milltronics P1 VFD meltdown
I took a gamble and bought a P1 that appears to have suffered a Saftronics VFD failure that resulted in melting one of the Glentek GA370-3 boards via the braking resistor. This seems like a common problem. With the machine I got a complete extra cabinet of controls from a scrapped machine but I'm not sure what I can use.
The P1 machine has a -C control, the extra cabinet is a -B, has servo dynamics SDFP1525-17-180 servo drives, and a giant black box for the spindle VFD (I also have the spindle motor off the scrapped machine).
I have the computer out of the P1 to get it bench test it, good news is it seems to have been updated sometime. It has a 1080mb spinning disk and no simdisk, the mother board has a coin battery so it's not the 386 or 486. It also has the encoder of the spindle so I hope I can get rigid tapping to work. Here is the whole box, it took some damage to the Z board and all the wiring from the caps to the boards.
Attachment 392078
Here is the extra cabinet.
Attachment 392082
So, it there much I can use from the extra parts or am I better off trying to fine a Glentek board and a newer VFD?
Does anyone know where I can get the connectors to the Glentek boards so I can remake the wiring harness?
My plan is to get the computer running, fix the wiring and see if I can get it to run with the Z axis and the VFD unhooked to validate the other two servo drives survived. I have a P0 knee mill with the same servo drives that I can pull borrow from for testing if I need all 3 boards hooked up to test.
Any help here is appreciated, I can't wait to have a machine running with a tool changer!
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Re: Milltronics P1 VFD meltdown
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Re: Milltronics P1 VFD meltdown
I believe the connectors on the Glentek board connectors are the same .156" spaced connector used on the Servo Dynamics boards. I'll dig up a Molex part number for one that should work - the originals are a Panduit style connector that takes special tooling to install. Is there just one 11 pin connector?
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Re: Milltronics P1 VFD meltdown
It melted the wiring to all 3 boards where they come down from the cap. So, I’ll need to recreate the whole thing or start cannibalizing the other cabinet.
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Re: Milltronics P1 VFD meltdown
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SEK22Hornet
I believe the connectors on the Glentek board connectors are the same .156" spaced connector used on the Servo Dynamics boards. I'll dig up a Molex part number for one that should work - the originals are a Panduit style connector that takes special tooling to install. Is there just one 11 pin connector?
Yes. I just need to source the 11 pin connector.
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Re: Milltronics P1 VFD meltdown
Quote:
Originally Posted by
srcarr52
Yes. I just need to source the 11 pin connector.
Do you have a photo of the connector, also the VFD can be replaced with a Yaskawa Saftronics back then where the same drive, post the spec's of the VFD Drive, and I can give you some numbers for a replacement, they where a good VFD drive so not sure the VFD caused this problem
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Re: Milltronics P1 VFD meltdown
I’ve read on other threads of people having similar meltdowns from the VFD. I guess when it fails it throws straight line voltage to the braking resistor. This makes me wonder if a slow burn fuse on the resistor could have saved a lot of electronics.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...29e21bb8aa.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...62c6a6964e.jpg
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Re: Milltronics P1 VFD meltdown
May be a good time to put a single phase drive in if you dont have 3phase where your at...
Sent from my SM-T813 using Tapatalk
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Re: Milltronics P1 VFD meltdown
Quote:
Originally Posted by
underthetire
May be a good time to put a single phase drive in if you dont have 3phase where your at...
Sent from my SM-T813 using Tapatalk
Yes, I don't have 3 phase so a newer single phase VFD would be best. I'd like to retain the rigid tapping, I've read that some VFD don't support what is needed to do that.
Any recommendations on a VFD?
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Re: Milltronics P1 VFD meltdown
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mactec54
Do you have a photo of the connector, also the VFD can be replaced with a Yaskawa Saftronics back then where the same drive, post the spec's of the VFD Drive, and I can give you some numbers for a replacement, they where a good VFD drive so not sure the VFD caused this problem
The Molex 09-50-3111 should work - you can get them from Mouser . Two different pins depending on the wire gauge. This first is for heavier wires like 18 to 24 gauge. The second is for 24-26 gauge. You can crimp them with pliers if you are careful but if you do solder then as well.
Housing https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...JKO9Rn8VfrI%3d
Pin https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...DXO2So4rY23ql2
Pin https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...DXO42JblJ693Yd
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Re: Milltronics P1 VFD meltdown
Quote:
Originally Posted by
underthetire
May be a good time to put a single phase drive in if you dont have 3phase where your at...
Sent from my SM-T813 using Tapatalk
You don't need a single phase VFD, any 3ph VFD will run on single phase, up to what ever your single phase supply max amps are
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Re: Milltronics P1 VFD meltdown
Quote:
Originally Posted by
srcarr52
Yes, I don't have 3 phase so a newer single phase VFD would be best. I'd like to retain the rigid tapping, I've read that some VFD don't support what is needed to do that.
Any recommendations on a VFD?
Another photo of the VFD with the cover off showing the low voltage terminals, this is how it is controlled, it appears to be just a standard VFD with those numbers
With the plugs I thought you needed something special
It almost looks like you would be better to dump all the electronic and start with something new like the Acorn Control, depending on the axes motors it would be a simple conversion
Acorn CNC controller, Step and Direction 4 axis CNC Control board with ethernet communication.DIY CNC kit
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Re: Milltronics P1 VFD meltdown
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mactec54
I’d rather not dump the Milltronics controls. I already have a running Cent 1 machine and I do a lot of my programs in the conversational on the machine. It’s really great for one offs and quick repairs that I normally do.
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Re: Milltronics P1 VFD meltdown
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SEK22Hornet
I knew I had seen an inexpensive crimp tool for these - here is one for under $20 - it would probably be worth it with as many pins to crimp as you have. I notice Jameco also carries the KK series connectors and pins. Just search Molex KK on their site to see all the different sizes they have.
crimp tool for Molex KK https://www.jameco.com/z/W-HT-1921-W...ts_227491.html
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Re: Milltronics P1 VFD meltdown
Are the axis drive cables on the spare cabinet cut? Your cheapest option if the CSM spindle drive and the spindle motor operates is to hang that cabinet and control on it.
Ron
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Re: Milltronics P1 VFD meltdown
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rl49
Are the axis drive cables on the spare cabinet cut? Your cheapest option if the CSM spindle drive and the spindle motor operates is to hang that cabinet and control on it.
Ron
Unless you have the AC servos to go with the Servo Dynamics amplifiers it would take a fair amount of work to rewire the other cabinet for the Glentek DC servo amplifiers for the brush type DC servos on the machine.
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Re: Milltronics P1 VFD meltdown
servo dynamics SDFP1525-17-180 are dc drives his servos are the same, not ac, his biggest obstacle baring the csm spindle not operational would be if the axis drive cable have been cut.
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Re: Milltronics P1 VFD meltdown
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rl49
servo dynamics SDFP1525-17-180 are dc drives his servos are the same, not ac, his biggest obstacle baring the csm spindle not operational would be if the axis drive cable have been cut.
oops - you are correct - didn't read the whole part number number. Ignore my comment. I saw Servo Dynamics and jumped to the conclusion that they were the same as mine.
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Re: Milltronics P1 VFD meltdown
Even if the cables were cut the servo drive wiring goes to terminal block TBB next to cards.
He could unhook the card cage axis plugs and wires going to TBB from the axis cables, and the ground wires hooked to the upper terminal strip and fish them out carefully thru cabinet and back thru his spare cabinet.
Granted a lot of work, I wouldn't do it unless he can get verification from previous owners that the csm spindle drive was operational and the spindle motor they sent with that drive was ok, and it has the side cabinet still attached with
the shift contactors on the left side of cabinet looking at the door, that do the shifting for the CSM 3 speed spindle.
My CSM spidle has 1 cogged pulley he would also need to change that as his spindle has a 2 speed belt setup.
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Re: Milltronics P1 VFD meltdown
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rl49
servo dynamics SDFP1525-17-180 are dc drives his servos are the same, not ac, his biggest obstacle baring the csm spindle not operational would be if the axis drive cable have been cut.
All the cables to the spare box were cut just outside the box. The wiring seems similar but it’s a -B control and I currently have a -C so it would be stepping backwards slightly. Also I don’t know what the spindle drive is in the spare box but I do have to motor to go with it.
Good news is I got the computer running today. It’s a pentium-s chip with a 1gb spinning disk. So it much have been upgraded at one time. I was trying to get it to boot from a compact flash to IDE converter board but I can’t seem to get the CF card MBR sector formatted. Fdisk /mbr gives me an error.
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Re: Milltronics P1 VFD meltdown
What’s the CSM spindle? Is it better or worse than the one I have now, if it wasn’t broken?
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Re: Milltronics P1 VFD meltdown
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rl49
Even if the cables were cut the servo drive wiring goes to terminal block TBB next to cards.
He could unhook the card cage axis plugs and wires going to TBB from the axis cables, and the ground wires hooked to the upper terminal strip and fish them out carefully thru cabinet and back thru his spare cabinet.
Granted a lot of work, I wouldn't do it unless he can get verification from previous owners that the csm spindle drive was operational and the spindle motor they sent with that drive was ok, and it has the side cabinet still attached with
the shift contactors on the left side of cabinet looking at the door, that do the shifting for the CSM 3 speed spindle.
My CSM spidle has 1 cogged pulley he would also need to change that as his spindle has a 2 speed belt setup.
Ahh. That’s what all those contractors in the side box are for. Seems like a mess. What’s the point of shifting gears? More torque at lower RPM? Higher speed?
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Re: Milltronics P1 VFD meltdown
Thats the huge black box in the lower left side of the cabinet.
Mine is 12.5 HP the had a 12.5,15, and 20 HP option the 12.5 changes the ac wiring inside the spindle wiring to delta, to wye with 3 combinations and gives 3 speed ranges for more torque at lower speeds.
I believe the 20 hp shifts with 4 ranges.
Also does rigid tapping as it has a resolver in it that sends out a simulated spindle encoder signal to control, mine works well.
They are howsoever very expensive to get rebuilt maybe sportybob will fill us in about how they work. Mine maxs out at 4500 but they had options to 10,000 rpm I think depending on your spindle bearings and a 2 step pulley setup
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Re: Milltronics P1 VFD meltdown
Didn't see all your first reply a cf adapter can be fussy and I have seen where you have to set them a master and your hd as slave, how big is your cf card?
Do you have a SBC card with a backplane?
I have also had to use different brand CF cards on occasion.
you should be able to put your newer control in the spare box worst case scenario would be getting acroloop.hex files from Milltronics if the ones from the older control do not work correctly with the CSM setup.
They only charged me $100 the same as they want if you request a parameter backup file to be emailed to you IF they have it on file.
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Re: Milltronics P1 VFD meltdown
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rl49
Didn't see all your first reply a cf adapter can be fussy and I have seen where you have to set them a master and your hd as slave, how big is your cf card?
Do you have a SBC card with a backplane?
I have also had to use different brand CF cards on occasion.
you should be able to put your newer control in the spare box worst case scenario would be getting acroloop.hex files from Milltronics if the ones from the older control do not work correctly with the CSM setup.
They only charged me $100 the same as they want if you request a parameter backup file to be emailed to you IF they have it on file.
I finally got the CF adapter to boot. Somehow I managed to screw up the original hard drive so it forced me to take a different route. I put the CF card in and booted from the DOS 6.22 disk, once I installed 6.22 via the floppy to the CF card everything started to work.
Before I was using format /s and fdisk /mbr and then copying over all the files from the original hard disk. In my mind, this should have worked but it didn't. Maybe I should have copied everything but command.com.
What do you mean by backplane? Isn't the SBC upgrade just ditching the sim card, using a hard drive and a newer/faster mother board?
I still have 4 cards plugged into the mother board, one graphics card and 3 motion cards.
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Re: Milltronics P1 VFD meltdown
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rl49
Thats the huge black box in the lower left side of the cabinet.
Mine is 12.5 HP the had a 12.5,15, and 20 HP option the 12.5 changes the ac wiring inside the spindle wiring to delta, to wye with 3 combinations and gives 3 speed ranges for more torque at lower speeds.
I believe the 20 hp shifts with 4 ranges.
Also does rigid tapping as it has a resolver in it that sends out a simulated spindle encoder signal to control, mine works well.
They are howsoever very expensive to get rebuilt maybe sportybob will fill us in about how they work. Mine maxs out at 4500 but they had options to 10,000 rpm I think depending on your spindle bearings and a 2 step pulley setup
I'm starting to think the spare cabinet was off a larger machine. So the CSM spindle could be an option but it seems it could come witch future cost? I don't see any machines past the P1 with this option so Milltronics must have ditched it for a reason?
High speed would be nice, but the 6k spindle is already 1800 more than what I'm used to on my P0. I'm happy to have this machine for a little more rigidity, rigid taping, and the tool changer. Once running I will be able to be so much more productive when I get time in the shop.
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Re: Milltronics P1 VFD meltdown
No the sbc upgrade is putting a 1/2 size isa single board computer into a passive isa back plane google the terms passive isa back plane. Then google 1/2 size isa slot Single board computer .
The early VM series had the CSM spindle option but as is my understanding it was expensive.
The future cost is proportional to the condition of the CSM drive and condition of the spindle motor.
I was just trying to give you some options without completely rewiring you present cabinet.
I suggest you hire Sportybob to evaluate your options and point you in the most economical direction to get you going.
Ron
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Re: Milltronics P1 VFD meltdown
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rl49
No the sbc upgrade is putting a 1/2 size isa single board computer into a passive isa back plane google the terms passive isa back plane. Then google 1/2 size isa slot Single board computer .
The early VM series had the CSM spindle option but as is my understanding it was expensive.
The future cost is proportional to the condition of the CSM drive and condition of the spindle motor.
I was just trying to give you some options without completely rewiring you present cabinet.
I suggest you hire Sportybob to evaluate your options and point you in the most economical direction to get you going.
Ron
Ron, Thanks that makes a lot more sense now on the SBD, most SBC's have a CF for a hard drive on the board.
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Re: Milltronics P1 VFD meltdown
srcarr52,
If you don't use your spare cabinet, I would be interested in the csm drive and spindle motor as spares for my P1H .
Thank You,
Ron
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Re: Milltronics P1 VFD meltdown
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rl49
srcarr52,
If you don't use your spare cabinet, I would be interested in the csm drive and spindle motor as spares for my P1H .
Thank You,
Ron
I doubt I'll be using the CSM spindle and drive as I don't think they can be run on single phase.
In my opinion, one of the greatest sellers of these old machines are that they can run on single phase.
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Re: Milltronics P1 VFD meltdown
Then Pm me with what you are looking for for price and location to see if I will pick up or arrange shipping as I have 3 phase and would like spares
Ron
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Re: Milltronics P1 VFD meltdown
Hi arcarr, both cabinets have DC axis drives. and can be inter changed. The SD cards do require the 3 pin connector in the center of the board. ( provides + / - 15 vdc to the drive. The Glentek cards do not require it. I have connectors. but you can remove the RED / BLACK wire harness for the axis and reinstall them in the other box. each connector has 2 black and 2 red wires. one blk / red pair goes to the DC buss caps, the other pair goes out to the terminal board where the go out to the motor.
In my opinion you should stay with a VFD. as the CSM is 1. expensive to fix. 2. it would be a BIG BOAT load of work to switch it over. The CSM can be run on single phase, but as with all 3 phase drives run on single phase you loose about 1/2 of the HP. If you want full motor HP then you need to install a VFD that is twice the motor rated HP... (if the motor is a 7.5 HP you need a 15 HP drive) I do this all the time and have replacement drives, installation instructions, and provide full tech support.
The -C control has internal CR1A and CR-1C relays inside the control box, your machines CR-1 A and C are located on the 14 relay board. I would stay with the -B cause is matches your machine wiring. you can swap mother boards if you wish to. dump the hard drive and sim disk and go with the CF drive.
give me a call and we can discuss your options.
sportybob
952-288-6340
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Re: Milltronics P1 VFD meltdown
Life got in the way and this project and it sat for a while, I've slowly made progress while picking up parts I needed when I found them for a good price.
I pulled the servo power wires and a cap from the other cabinet and installed it with two new Glentek boards. Last weekend the mill powered up and moved all 3 axis and homed out without issues.
I have a LED backlit LCD screen to install in place of the dim and slow to warm up CRT screen, I've done a similar swap on my Partner 00 knee mill.
Now the last hurdles are to replace or repair the VFD, get the spindle and tool changer working and clean the surface rust from the ways and table.
I'm also missing the coolant tank, I'll probably just bend and weld up my own with a few chip traps in it and an oil skimmer. I've installed a belt skimmer in my P00 early this year and it really does a good job.
I'll probably pull the Safetronics VFD out this week and open it up. From what I've read it's Fuji power supply module that fails and it seems easy to solder a new one in for a cheap fix.
Two weeks ago I had the electromagnetic brake on the Z axis servo for my P00 mill fail, I couldn't find a 90v replacement so I ended up rewinding the brake myself. I'll start a separate thread on it.
