Any options for cheap/free 4 axis simultaneous cam?

Currently I'm using fusion 360 which us free for a hobbiest and it's been great. So far it has been able to do anything I want, but now that I've added a 4th axis to my machine, the cam is a bit lacking. Handles 3+1 just fine and a few other things like tool path wrap, but isn't currently able to do a lot of 4 axis simultaneous stuff that I would like. I've seen videos of cheaper machines like the stepcraft doing simultaneous 4 on complex shapes so I assume there must be some cheap cam programs out there that can do it. Any suggestions?

Subscribed. All the fancy 5A stuff but 4A seems to be sadly lacking in Fusion, you can wrap a couple of operations but that seems to be about it. For what it's worth, even at $20k a seat, PTC Creo was pretty rubbish at 4A continuous too. Dunno about you but all I wanted was to be able to do lathe like operations using the 4A and a rotating cutter in the mill.

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Originally Posted by dharmic

Subscribed. All the fancy 5A stuff but 4A seems to be sadly lacking in Fusion, you can wrap a couple of operations but that seems to be about it. For what it's worth, even at $20k a seat, PTC Creo was pretty rubbish at 4A continuous too. Dunno about you but all I wanted was to be able to do lathe like operations using the 4A and a rotating cutter in the mill.

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Yep, that's one of the things I'd like to do, pretty much run it like a lathe, but also with parts that aren't round. I'll be able to do quite a bit with indexing since I'll be able to blend 3d from one side to the next much easier than flipping it into a soft jaw, but still it would be nice if it could continuously turn while managing x and z for a truly seamless cut all the way around

DeskProto can do it, using Mesh models.

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Originally Posted by ger21

DeskProto can do it, using Mesh models.

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Great! I'll check it out

Looks like it's geared more towards just complex carving and not so much basic machining. Haven't looked at it much yet, but hopefully it would also be good for indexing and basic pockets, drilling, etc. Since it uses an stl, I'm assuming you cant just pick an edge, flat face, or hole and give it a simple contour, facing, or drilling op. I would probably need to use a combination of fusion 360 for basic machining, then finish the complex areas of the part with deskproto. I suppose if I was trying to program a part that I would machine many times, it wouldn't be a big deal to spend the extra time doing it partly in fusion, partly in deskproto, paste the one onto the end of other and have complete gcode for the part.
Still would be nice if fusion just had a couple more 4 axis features. Seems like they are so close. There's actually work arounds to get it to do complex 4 axis surfacing, I think using flow. It's just kind of glitchy and has some issues like controlling direction of cut, starting point, step, over etc.

Probably doesn't fall into your cheap/free range, though.

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Originally Posted by ger21

Probably doesn't fall into your cheap/free range, though.

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For the hobbiest version, i would definitely consider a few hundred bucks cheap compared to 20k software, so it's definitely an option to consider. Just wish it was also geared a bit more towards basic machining as well.

The new 7.0 version of DeskProto does have a lot more of the basic 2.5D CAM functions - pocketing, drilling, etc,- than previous versions had. If you haven't looked at it recently, you might check again. It's cheap compared to other programs that support continuous 4-axis machining, and if you're a hobbyist, it's much cheaper - we sell the multi-axis version for $248 to them (unless the dollar falls further against the euro, in which case it will have to go up.)

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Originally Posted by awerby

The new 7.0 version of DeskProto does have a lot more of the basic 2.5D CAM functions - pocketing, drilling, etc,- than previous versions had. If you haven't looked at it recently, you might check again. It's cheap compared to other programs that support continuous 4-axis machining, and if you're a hobbyist, it's much cheaper - we sell the multi-axis version for $248 to them (unless the dollar falls further against the euro, in which case it will have to go up.)

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Good to hear! I'll look into it for sure. I guess I just pictured it being less simple to select specific edges, corners, faces, etc. When working with an stl. I'll just have to see how it works.

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I guess I just pictured it being less simple to select specific edges, corners, faces, etc. When working with an stl. I'll just have to see how it works.

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I would think the process would be automated. It would be nearly impossible to select edges in an .stl.
I'm assuming it works like MeshCAM, which has hole detection and arc detection with .stl files.

Deskproto doesn't have feature recognition; it treats the whole STL mesh as a single object. Its pockets and holes are driven by separate DXF input. If you need to select edges, etc,that works much better with a different kind of file format, like IGES or STEP, and requires a different sort of CAM program.

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Originally Posted by awerby

Deskproto doesn't have feature recognition; it treats the whole STL mesh as a single object. Its pockets and holes are driven by separate DXF input. If you need to select edges, etc,that works much better with a different kind of file format, like IGES or STEP, and requires a different sort of CAM program.

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Yep, that's what I figured. So probably best to take my parts as far as possible in fusion and then finish the 3d stuff in deskproto. Although after using my 4th axis the last few days, I'm actually getting quite good results blending separate 3d ops with indexing in fusion. I pictured it being hard to get walls to blend, but once my y zero was dialed in perfectly on 4th axis,there is really no visible seam and getting that dialed in with test cuts is a one time thing, now it's permanently my g55. Still I'm sure turning type 3d tool paths look nicer than 3 axis on round features.

I have been looking for the same thing recently. It looks like the situation hasn’t changed much in 2023. There is still no free CAM software for simultaneous 4-axis.
The least expensive commercial options I was able to find are:


- For polygon meshes and organic shapes - DeskProto - $1100


- For NURBS geometry - Visual CAD/CAM Expert - $2500

Hi Storen - Have you looked at FreeCAD? Peter

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Originally Posted by peteeng

Hi Storen - Have you looked at FreeCAD? Peter

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Hi Peter, good call! Thank you for mentioning FreeCAD. A couple of months ago I installed a copy and went over the features and the documentation. I have to admit I must have overlooked the 4th-axis functions.

Frankly, I was very annoyed with the software and didn’t spend a long time experimenting with it. The interface is a complete mess... The main developers either don't care or like it this way. A while ago there were a couple of interface designers offering to help improve the UI but received zero support from the developers. Additionally, it is very poorly documented. I found I am spending more time fighting the software for very basic operations than doing something useful with it.

However, if the most affordable commercial alternative is 2.5K I feel I should give it a second try before I decide. I can see how it can be an attractive option for intermittent noncommercial users. When choosing between selling a kidney, installing a cracked copy, or using an open-source application with a terrible interface and documentation many will choose the latter.

I've been testing the FreeCAD CAM functions for the past couple of days. The results are discouraging. It seems the software is in a very early experimental (alpha) stage. The functionality is very limited, the code is buggy, and the program frequently crashes, freezes, and displays error messages for no apparent reason. It is even more problematic when working with imported complex models. Unfortunately, I have to scratch FreeCAD from the list of options.

Hi,
I use Fusion and have had a basic subscription for several years. A few months ago I bought an introductory offer (25% discount) of the Machining Extensions
which handle genuine four and five axis, collision avoidance , toolpath editing etc. So far I have found it very good. The only 'fly in the ointment' is the cost.....$1600USD/year,
and that's over and above the basic subscription.

I've done some research and actually $1600/year is very competitive among the serious contenders, and that's why I got it. Whether I can justify renewing the subscription
when it comes due at the end of July remains to be seen.

Craig

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Originally Posted by joeavaerage

I use Fusion and have had a basic subscription for several years.

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According to the information on the Autodesk site, the discounts apply for one year only and cannot be extended. The Full price of a one-year subscription for Fusion 360 Machining is $2145 ($545+$1600). The price with the discount is $1502 ($382+$1120).
So in the best case (discounts), the subscription for two years is $3647. Of course, you will have to continue paying if you want to use the software further.


The Visual CAM license is perpetual - $2500. I haven't used Visual CAM personally but based on the information I was able to find it is significantly more powerful with more functions than the HSM CAM modules included in Fusion 360. Overall Visual CAM seems a better deal.
The main advantage of Fusion is that comes with CAD modeling tools, however, if you use different CAD paying these annual subscription fees would be difficult to justify.


What surprises me the most is with so many CAM options competing on the market there is nothing cheaper than $2500 and there isn't even one noncommercial option (NURBS).

I sell the Expert edition of Mecsoft's VisualCADCAM (which includes the 4th axis functions) for $2250, so that's a little cheaper. And the commercial multi-axis version of Deskproto is $950, if you get it from me. https://computersculpture.com/tool-paths

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Originally Posted by awerby

I sell the Expert edition of Mecsoft's VisualCADCAM (which includes the 4th axis functions) for $2250, so that's a little cheaper. And the commercial multi-axis version of Deskproto is $950, if you get it from me. https://computersculpture.com/tool-paths

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Awesome! I assume you are an expert user of Visual CAM. Have you tried the latest Fusion 4-axis functions? I wonder how both products compare in terms of continuous 4-axis milling. What would be the main advantages of Visual CAM?

Hi,

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The Full price of a one-year subscription for Fusion 360 Machining is $2145 ($545+$1600).

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That is 100% correct, so the four and five axis functions add VERY considerably to the price of Fusion, and as you say it is an annual subscription.

I compared at the time with others including VisualCAM and at that time it was $5000 perpetual for four and five axis plus an annual maintenance (optional)
The listing on their website suggests a price range of $595 to $10,000 depending on the functionality required. I rather suspect if you want full five axis the cost
is closer to $10,000. It may well be, as has been posted, that fourth axis functionality is rather less.

I concluded, maybe wrongly, but I did study it that Fusion was fair value, and as there are other features of Fusion, especially the Electronics and PCB module that are essential
to my business.

I too was rather surprised at the cost of four and five axis functionality, most of the software that I looked at wanted $5000 or more for a perpetual license plus an annual maintenance fee.
I think the bottom line is that four and five axis is expensive.....and they're all like that as far as I can tell.

Craig

Hi,
just been doing some double checking and yes continuous fourth axis comes in Expert, $2500, continuous fourth and indexing fifth comes with Professional, $5000,
and continuous forth and fifth axis come with Premium, $10,000.

Craig

Hi,
a non-discounted yearly subscription to Fusion plus the Machining Extensions is $2145. The competing VisualCAM product is $10,000 but
annoyingly they don't tell you how much the annual maintenance fee is. Neglecting the annual fee the perpetual license is
about 4.6 years worth of the Fusion + Machining Extensions subscription.

Question...'Would you pay $10,000 and NOT buy the annual maintenance plan?'. I don't think I could spend that sort of money only to see it slip out-of-date.
Were it $1000....then yes I could see me foregoing the annual maintenance and buying anew in eight years or whatever, but $10,000??

I come to the conclusion that a Fusion + Machining Extensions is pretty fair value, remembering this is continuous four and five axis. For continuous four axis only then
VisualCAM Expert is probably the winner.

Craig

Hi Craig - Maintenace is usually about 10% of the initial price. I used to pay it every couple of years unless they did something that I really wanted. The arrangement goes out of date at about 5 years and you will have to pay full value if it lapses. Recently I had a computer failure and they wanted $150USD to reissue a license. Thats what tipped me into looking for alternatives and F360 won that round.

The subscription biz model will become the norm... Peter

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Originally Posted by Storen

Awesome! I assume you are an expert user of Visual CAM. Have you tried the latest Fusion 4-axis functions? I wonder how both products compare in terms of continuous 4-axis milling. What would be the main advantages of Visual CAM?

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I haven't tried Fusion 360, so I can't say much about its 4-axis functionality. Even if it worked as well as Mecsoft's program (I've heard various opinions), you have to pay for Fusion each year, and they keep changing the deal, so you never really know what you'll be getting. When you buy VisualCADCAM it's not going to expire at the end of your subscription period, and the features you've been using won't suddenly disappear.

Hi peteeng,
to be honest I very much disliked the subscription model that Autodesk have adopted but have yet become accustomed to it and do not dislike it in the manner that I did.
Amongst other things it turns out that if you are going to compare 'apples with apples' form other software manufacturers the subscription is very cost competitive.

If there is something that bugs me is the Cloud based thing. If your local internet slows down you are screwed....and it does happen sometimes.

To answer awerby's concerns over the few years of my subscription the range of features and functions has increased not decreased. There is only one exception that I can think of
and that is Cloud based processing. I used to be able to FEA analysis on my own PC but have found I am in effect required to use a Cloud based service, at a cost. I don't much like
the change but it's a small issue compared to the increasing functionality overall. So I disagree with awerby here, if you are a 'fare paying customer' of Autodesk's they do try to look
after you. If you are a hobbyist using the 'free to hobbyist' version, then yes, you might expect that things change and such customers feel aggrieved, and have posted comments along those lines.
I have yet to see any consistent line of complaint that 'fare paying' customers have reported.

Naturally this is just my opinion and each persons appreciation may vary.

Craig

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Originally Posted by joeavaerage

For continuous four axis only then VisualCAM Expert is probably the winner.

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Yes, the situation with continuous 5-axis is quite different, and Visual CAM may not be the best option in this category. I wanted to stay focused on the subject - cheap/free 4-axis simultaneous cam. Frankly, I hoped someone would know a less expensive option than Visual CAM :)


I am really interested in the 5-axis options as well. Maybe I should start a new thread for that.

Hi,

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I hoped someone would know a less expensive option than Visual CAM

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Me too. I did a reasonable search before taking the plunge on Fusion Machining Extensions and really I have found no more than you have.
I don't claim that my search was exhaustive by any means but I think I can reasonably claim that Fusion + Machining Extensions subscription
is good value. It was always my intention to do five axis so really I had to look for a solution that had it at reasonable value. Additionally I use the
Electronics and PCB module of Fusion and was always going to have at least the basic Fusion subscription anyway.

The last piece of the puzzle, for me anyway, is that you become familiar with a piece of software. Changing to something else is always hard, even if the new
software is technically better. Given my increasing fluency with basic Fusion t was always probable that I would continue with the Machining Extensions.
Autodesk and all the rest of them know this also and it's why they compete so hard for new users.

Fusion Machining Extensions can be bought on a weekly or a monthly basis. Naturally you pay quite a premium, but if you have just one or two jobs to do
the you take the plunge, generate and perfect your GCode. Once the weekly or monthly hire ends you still have the tool path that you can use to your hearts content.
On the basis of cost from my personal budget I may have to go this way in the future

Craig.