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Design & Build of Frankenrouter
Evening all - I have started designing Frankenrouter. It will use up some (hopefully all) of the bits and pieces I have accumulated while building a few machines. Frankie will be 2900mm long and 700mm wide. So its a "long" half sheet machine. Haven't decided on the Z height yet. It will be made from ply and aluminium. Some parts will be ply laminated with aluminium. The gantry maybe cast CSA cement. Early days. So I have blocked out some geometry and details in CAD. Will develop it over the next few weeks... The mantra is make everything myself, spend as less $$$ as possible. I need a long machine for making future gantry moulds. I have been very impressed by the stiffness of the high rail mdf base I made for BrevisHD/YaG on another thread. Since its long I thought it would go up against a wall quite well, use the high rail at the back and a low rail at the front for easy loading of material.... Will use round rails as these are cheaper and I'd like to see what they are about. The Z axis will be square rail as I have that. Plus depending on the length of the gantry I may have square for that. It will be driven by 10:1 N17 steppers using 10mm AT belts from another router I have. The z will be a ballscrew I have.. So I'm breaking down a router called Brevis-3 and mashing it up with surplus parts to create Frankenrouter. Will have to wait for a lightning storm to enliven it... Peter
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Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter
Hi All - I have been thinking about building parts from laminated ply and aluminium. This would give me geometry flexibility and the ability to mill in various features that an AL tube lacks. So I modelled an AL tube 120x120x5 by 1000mm long and loaded it in combined bending and torsion. I also modelled a ply version and a ply Al laminated version to compare with same outer dims. The AL tube is the stiffest and lightest but the hybrid is 80% the efficiency of the al tube. That's close enough for this purpose. I can either epoxy the aluminium on the outside of the beams or recess it in so the parts are smooth on the outside. Will figure that later. Peter
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Hi All - I was wondering which way to orient the wall webs. l So I made a quite model. Intuitively I would say vertical and that's what it worked out with. Having them vertical is about twice as stiff as having them horizontal. ie have the webs in the plane of the bending... Peter
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Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter
Evening all - I have started chucking in the parts I have. I have to measure up a couple of the square rails from Brevis. Its the machine I'm breaking down. I have taken the electronics from Brevis2 and migrated them to YaG the router I'm building at the moment. The other parts go to Frankie. Coming along, need to sort the 2400mm length, maybe have to have a 3m base to get the 2440mm envelope... Peter
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Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter
Hi All - I have wondered if I should go with aluminium ribs or stay with ply. I'll have to cost that out to decide. I made the ribs a bit taller so I can install the motor "inside" the structure. I'm thinking the saddle to be cast CSA, the z axis plate to be laminated aluminium / ply and the gantry to be ply plated with AL... I have put the 20mm square rails on the z and will measure the other rails I have to see if they are long enough for the gantry. Now I'll have to tune up the envelope and then I can detail it. Peter
YaG will be building the parts, hopefully get it moving this week... - Peter
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Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter
Evening All - I've decide to stay with the 2400mm total overall length and optimise around a sheet size. So it will be 2400mm length and 700-750mm deep. Will do some more work on the model now YaG is running. Plus we now have a border bubble so materials are easier to get, Yeh! Peter
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Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter
Do you think it is nessecarry with dual drive on the long axis with 700-750mm depth ?
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Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter
Yes Buoyen - I do. Sounds like a marriage.. Peter
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Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter
Morning All - YaG is now fully commissioned and running around the shed. So I can get serious designing Frankie. I'll muster all the surplus parts so I can see whats what. Peter
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Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter
Afternoon - I started mustering parts and while some epoxy was curing started breaking down Brevis#1 and Brevis#2. It hard to pull apart a perfectly functioning machine. I've been putting it off but now Yag/Scoot is running I don't need Brevis. Took less then 1.5hrs to strip it. Took a few days on and off to build it... So B1 will be sent to the paint shop for sandblast and epoxy paint. Then it will be rebuilt with a reinforced saddle and new antibacklash Z nut. Then it will be sold. I thought about migrating the electronics to Frankie but will start that from scratch I'm going to aim at a high voltage system. B2 I'm going to box as a mechanical kit set and try to sell that too. Need the room in the workshop for the new routers including Frankenrouter. Brevis#1 was designed as a demo machine that can be carted around the timber & machinery shows, but they don't exist now. B#2 was built to trial gearboxes and some electronics, all done now... So now back to the drawing board to develop Frankenrouter more.. Peter
Break Down 1 - B#2 with its motors removed. These will go to Frankie
Break Down 2 - B#1 starting the pull down
Brevis 1 - Prior to pull down with new Z nut and saddle, UC100 etc
Brevis 2 - B#2 prior to pull down with some surplus parts for Frankie
fully stripped down - B#1 in pieces, sad but the rust was really annoying and I was loosing sleep over it:) Interesting all the screws in the timber were rusting in the embedded area even some of the zinc plated ones...
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Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter
Hi All - I have done some more work on Frankie. It will be 2400mm long and 700mm wide. The base will be aluminium ply laminate. The rest we shall see. I do have concerns with the cranked gantry but we shall get it along a bit further...Peter
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Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter
Hi All - I have spoken to BST about long rails. They can deliver 2.4m length but suggest 16 or 20mm as it travels better. So I need to model the 20mm components. Currently the rail is 12mm in the model. Peter
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Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter
Hi All & Sundry - I've been preoccupied getting a gremlin sorted in my big router. I'm over the hurdles now so will plan some time on Frankie.... Peter
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Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter
Morning all and Sundry - I've spent a little time re-organising Frankie. I like how the top rails have worked out on Scoot-S2. It gives easy access to the 6 car bolts, makes assembly easy as it sits on top of the gantry so its an easy lift and land. The access to the bottom cars is tricky but using hex bolts allows a spanner vs a key for any checking or snug ups needed. The main assembly is on the bench so that's good. I've been interested in a wide flat gantry section vs mainly square ones to date. This will allow the gantry end cars to bolt inside the gantry vs making some sort of extra, wide part Like I have done on others. The top rails removes the rail and car distance from the forward stack so that's good. The only negative I see is that the bottom Z cars are the ones that cop the most hidings & they are on a small cantilever. Normal work and crashes wear these cars first as they are closest to the tool and are cantilevered. They are the bearings I have noticed that wear fastest on other machines. So I have to make that area strong and stiff.... The test people have sent me the protocol for the modulus test and its very different to usual. I've found out its for cast plastics which require a very high surface finish G6000 which I shan't do. So I'll send them my suggestions and start getting a CF panel together. Will make 2 I think, one short fibre CF the other random billet to compare... They want 6 coupons for the test but I only have enough for 3-4 coupons. Good enough for my purposes....So I think Frankenrouter is on its way....Peter
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Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter
Evening all - I think I have decided on Frankenrouters configuration. Haven't put much thought into the Z yet but that will come. Now's time to rebuild from base up using the rules of plywood and aluminium laminates and building as much as possible myself. I added the motors and bits to Frankie3 but now will get into Frankie4. Have to change the round linears from 12mm to 20mm and look at my surplus square rails and see if they are long enough for the gantry or I'll cut them for the Z. The current envelope is 2100x660xZ300. I'll drop the Z to 250mm and think about making it longer so it will take a half sheet. 2100 to 2400 doesn't seem to be much of a stretch. Today I got my first shelves mounted on the washroom walls. Its great to get some tools off the floor!! Peter
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Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter
Morning all - I did some numbers on the Z axis plate last night and decided to go for a 50mm thick laminate. Will be laminated plywood with 2mm al skins. This is equivalent to a solid block of 30mm thick aluminium.
I have a couple of sheets of 2mm so want to use those up. I tried to slot this into FrankieNo3 model but it fell over. I'm using Hiwin car models and there's something not quite right with them. The car faces are not right and I have to use edges to align them. This means they are not robust constraints. So its time to start again with proper sub assemblies and relationships. Onward Peter
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Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter
Hi All & Sundry Gcoders - I've started rebuilding Frankie. Looking good. I've looked at the square rail I have and it will go on the Z axis. The other axes will be Dia16mm round. I've also started rebuilding Brevis No1 which has some of the features of / for Frankie . A cranked saddle with up facing gantry rails and the belt drives and the motor mounts and belt tensioners.... I found some heavy aluminium angle which I had cut up for a mould many years ago, would be good for the gantry ends. Will measure that up and get it into the model. I spent some time stretching it to 2400mm but it became really long with non standard sheet sizes so I've kept this simple. The aim is to build Frankie, sell it then build a full sheet machine or the robot.... Peter
I'm thinking of using Scoots Z axis assembly then theres no brain work needed. But then I have to order parts vs build parts.... we'll see
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Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter
Morning All - This morning I added the aluminium angle parts to the gantry and also used it for the drive brackets. This is all going well. I looked at a top mounted drive for the Z axis and a rear one. I'll go with the rear so the belt clamping has easy access. I like the belts to be vertical so nothing accumulates on them but this one will be up out of the way hopefully. I staggered the gantry back a bit on the bearing plates to gain another 50mm of travel. Now to tidy this a little to define the envelope a bit better then move to the Z axis. Peter
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Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter
Hi All - I have rationalised the envelope, Z is 300mm may bring that back to 250mm. Have to work on the Z drive then it can be detailed.... May use Scoots Z its really stiff and thin... Been sealing various bits in my washroom and have come to the conclusion that vinyl ester is much better to saturate timber with then epoxy. Sets harder and faster and seems to get deeper... It is thinner then the infusion epoxies.. Peter
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Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter
Hi Peter,
Frankie is coming along nicely. The open design with the rear wall raised and the front having clear access is perfect to place the machine up against a wall and still be easy to get the large work pieces onto the bed. With the machine oriented this way, is the long axis considered the X because it is the left/right motion, and the short the Y because it is the front/back motion as seen from where you would be operating the machine? Obviously up and down is still Z.
Jayne
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Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter
Hi Jayne - I don't think there is a hard and fast rule on the axis dirn. As long as it follows the right hand screw rule. For instance the computer on Scoot 1 was on the side facing Scoot so its Y was along the gantry. On Scoot-S2 its on the side but facing the rear of Scoot so its gantry is in the X dirn. I set up the axis according to how the computer sits so it agrees with controller WYSIWIG. I have not thought about where to put the computer yet on Frankie. I have to build its bench yet, I'd like to use a touchscreen notebook and have it on a stalk at the front.... which means X will be the long dim of the base ie left to right. Y+ will be away from the operator. Peter
By the way I don't like the black layout of the new UCCNC so I revert it back to the original. Easier to see I feel....
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Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter
Hi Peter,
I don't know what the right hand screw rule is as applied to CAD and CNC. I have a distant memory of the right hand rule from the electrical engineering world relating to current flow and electromagnetic forces, but that memory is from a long time ago and faded. lol
It makes sense for the machine axes to be aligned with what you see on the computer screen, less chance of human error that way. I like the idea of a touch screen mounted on a stalk, I was thinking of doing something molar with my machine. I thought I even had the right computer for the task, it's an old HP laptop with a touchscreen, and the screen flips around so you can close the lid with screen facing out, but something is fried inside and it no longer works. Looking forward to see what you end up doing with Frankie.
Jayne
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Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter
Hi Jayne - The axes in CAD and CAM obey the RHS rule. Look at your screen axes and hold up your right hand. Stick your thumb up (Z+), first finger pointing fwd second finger 90deg to first... your first finger is therefore X+ and your second finger is Y+. Left handers like my wife seem to have trouble with taps turning and spanners unturning...
So do screw threads and electromagnetics work with the RHS rule. I was watching a lecture on quantum mechanics and I don't think it exists there. weird stuff in that space. Peter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
JayneV
Hi Peter,
I don't know what the right hand screw rule is as applied to CAD and CNC. I have a distant memory of the right hand rule from the electrical engineering world relating to current flow and electromagnetic forces, but that memory is from a long time ago and faded. lol
It makes sense for the machine axes to be aligned with what you see on the computer screen, less chance of human error that way. I like the idea of a touch screen mounted on a stalk, I was thinking of doing something molar with my machine. I thought I even had the right computer for the task, it's an old HP laptop with a touchscreen, and the screen flips around so you can close the lid with screen facing out, but something is fried inside and it no longer works. Looking forward to see what you end up doing with Frankie.
Jayne
There is a right hand coordinate rule, this snip is what is normal for machine coordinate's, the only difference some may use the Y axis +/- reversed
Yes your Cad has to work with your machine Coordinate's
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Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter
Quote:
Originally Posted by
peteeng
Hi Jayne - The axes in CAD and CAM obey the RHS rule. Look at your screen axes and hold up your right hand. Stick your thumb up (Z+), first finger pointing fwd second finger 90deg to first... your first finger is therefore X+ and your second finger is Y+. Left handers like my wife seem to have trouble with taps turning and spanners unturning...
So do screw threads and electromagnetics work with the RHS rule. I was watching a lecture on quantum mechanics and I don't think it exists there. weird stuff in that space. Peter
For CNC machines it is normally called Right Hand Coordinate's Rule, the Right Hand Screw Rule is a different hand movement, and not normally used to explain a X Y Z Coordinate.
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Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter
Hi M54 - Well I'll just call it the right hand rule then to cover the bases. Seems the swiss do it different. Peter
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Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter
Gotcha!
Thank you both for the explanation. I understood the coordinate relationship between CAD and the machine, I just hadn’t associated it with a “right hand rule”.
Peter, the image of the 200CHF note intrigued me. I wasn’t sure if that was a real note or something that had been photoshopped by someone in the scientific/engineering community for some reason. So I did a google search and sure enough, it is currently in circulation. https://www.snb.ch/en/iabout/cash/se...es9_design_200
Jayne
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Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter
Hi all - in high school and uni engineering or maths tests we always knew what question people were up to as they started waving their fingers around to figure out orientations, vectors or curl questions. Was quite a while ago.. Peter
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Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter
Hi All - I think I'll use the new version of Scoots Z axis on Frankie. I'm ordering some parts and haven't come up to minimum order value so shall put Frankies new Z into that. It will be laminated steel...Deciding early next week when the final quotes come in... Peter
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Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter
Quote:
Originally Posted by
peteeng
Hi M54 - Well I'll just call it the right hand rule then to cover the bases. Seems the swiss do it different. Peter
These snips show you the difference and how it is used, there are many Right and Left Hand Rules, some very complicated and confusing, I have never used these terms because they can be misinterpreted.
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Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter
Hi M54 - The way I was taught includes both in the same hand position. The extended fingers provide the orientations and the 3rd and forth curled fingers provide the screw rule (mathematically a "curl" as well). This is useful for figuring out cross vectors. But I've never used a cross vector in practice only in exams. My main formal studies where machine design, light structures and advanced materials....But these are always ongoing...Peter
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curl_(mathematics)
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Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter
Quote:
Originally Posted by
peteeng
Hi M54 - The way I was taught includes both in the same hand position. The extended fingers provide the orientations and the 3rd and forth curled fingers provide the screw rule (mathematically a "curl" as well). This is useful for figuring out cross vectors. But I've never used a cross vector in practice only in exams. My main formal studies where machine design, light structures and advanced materials....But these are always ongoing...Peter
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curl_(mathematics)
The screw rule is normally not incorporated with the coordinate Rule, there is no use for it when relating to coordinates.
Like I said it can be interpreted any way you want, I was teaching this stuff for some years, to Engineering guys like you. :) so know how most where always confused with it's use, it really is a primitive way to explain an X, Y, Z, A, B, C. Axis coordinate system. as you can see you run out of fingers anything above 5 axis for one hand, then you have to incorporate the left hand in the mix which then wraps fingers around the axis that they represent, just imagine using this today to teach, would be crazy, it's much easier to draw up, a visual presentation, which is a better way to explain a multi Axis coordinate system.
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Morning all & sleepy - Haven't done any FE on Frankie so far so todays the day for some. The Z axis can be made from 6mm steel like Scoot but I plan to use 3mm laminated in future. Waiting for quotes 2x3mm parts vs 1x 6mm stainless steel part. Then I have 2mm sheet aluminium that I want to use up so I could laminate 3x15mm plywood and skin it with 2mm aluminium. So I modelled these to see the diff. The alum laminate is best then the steel laminate then the 6mm SS baseline version. I pushed the Z axis with 1000N about 100kgf to deflect it about 1mm. The steel laminate deflected 0.86mm which is 82% of the baseline design. The al/ply/al deflected 0.768mm which is 72% of the baseline design. But the al/ply/al (lets call it the composite design) is 49mm thick which sticks out quite a way then there's the spindle clamp.... The composite design is very light compared to the steel ones... steel 5.66kg composite 2.88kg but not concerned about weight.. composite would be very damp as well... I'll wait for the quotes to see which way to jump... Peter
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Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter
Evening all - I have adjusted Frankies envelope to X700 Y2100 and Z200... I've put my Ozito router on and next is the Z drive. Would be good to stretch it to 2400mm. May bring the X back to 650mm. Peter
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Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter
Morning All - this mornings work involved getting the Z drive roughly in place. I put a trench in the tool plate but this removes stiffness from the plate. So I'll revert that and trench the saddle. There is a 15mm delta between the ballscrew fittings and the carriage heights that has to be accounted for somehow. I've started putting holes in the washroom floor and yesterday I had a vision of the finish line but I've had that before! But its time to look at vinyl flooring so must be getting closer... Need to finish so I can serious with other machine stuff. Peter
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Hi all - I've trenched the saddle and offset the spindle to improve the X length. I think I have captured all the parts and logic I want to. So I wait to figure out if I go steel Z or composite. Happy with the saddle trench, maybe the saddle can be Tetrium... Once the Z is decided I can rebuild properly at detail level... Better start on Frankies bench! Peter
edit - heres where I'm up to with the bench - it weighs 1700kg better sort that out. I want a bench that easy to move so needs to be light. No bottom shelves to fill up with stuff...
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Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter
Quote:
Originally Posted by
peteeng
Hi all - I've trenched the saddle and offset the spindle to improve the X length. I think I have captured all the parts and logic I want to. So I wait to figure out if I go steel Z or composite. Happy with the saddle trench, maybe the saddle can be Tetrium... Once the Z is decided I can rebuild properly at detail level... Better start on Frankies bench! Peter
edit - heres where I'm up to with the bench - it weighs 1700kg better sort that out. I want a bench that easy to move so needs to be light. No bottom shelves to fill up with stuff...
Does your Bench need a top on it, that would save some weight, attach the frame direct, to the bottom of the machine.
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Hi Mactec - Thought about a stand vs a bench but the bench can do double duty once Frankie is moved along. I'm also thinking about doing it as two benchs that bolt together so I can have two smaller ones to break it down for transport. I got stuck moving Scoot back from the Mens Shed to home as its heavy and now with shutdowns and stuff its hard to find 4 people to lift things when needed so I'm trying to have broken down parts that I can manage myself.... I'll revisit the stand maybe the way to go especially if I stretch it to Y2400. There's a boatbuilder interested in it and he'll want to cut long half sheets... Peter
one of todays routing jobs was more cleats for the storage. I had run 12 before and varnished them but decided no need to put time into varnish as they aren't seen. finish all of those tomorrow 22 to go. I am liking the battery drill and screws vs the studs for the clamps. Much faster....
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Re: Design & Build of Frankenrouter
Quote:
Originally Posted by
peteeng
Hi Mactec - Thought about a stand vs a bench but the bench can do double duty once Frankie is moved along. I'm also thinking about doing it as two benchs that bolt together so I can have two smaller ones to break it down for transport. I got stuck moving Scoot back from the Mens Shed to home as its heavy and now with shutdowns and stuff its hard to find 4 people to lift things when needed so I'm trying to have broken down parts that I can manage myself.... I'll revisit the stand maybe the way to go especially if I stretch it to Y2400. There's a boatbuilder interested in it and he'll want to cut long half sheets... Peter
one of todays routing jobs was more cleats for the storage. I had run 12 before and varnished them but decided no need to put time into varnish as they aren't seen. finish all of those tomorrow 22 to go. I am liking the battery drill and screws vs the studs for the clamps. Much faster....
Just remember you have to have more travel then just the 2400, the cutter needs to be able to clear the sheet at both ends. and use a cutter size, that is max for the spindle that will be used.
If you add lifting points, or use lifting bars / pipes, a roll around Garage engine type hoist, will lift anything you are building, and you can do it by yourself.
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Hi M54 - Yes I usually leave 100mm for clamping etc around the envelope. Garage hoists can lift but difficult to then get big things in my van. I'll leave various lifts to customers. Last time I delivered one I asked for photos of the house to check out its situation. Looked good big roller door to garage. Got there and the garage was full of stuff and the router was going to live in a lean to. Had to pull down the Z axis, turn the router on its side and we lifted it through a narrow side gate. Got jammed nearly dropped it and a neighbour came to the rescue very lucky! :) They get heavy fast...
So a recap:
1) Frankie has come together quite quickly. Happy with most details. I would like to reflex the base motor so its inside. Will get to that in time. Other wise all good
2) Rules are - make as many parts myself as possible, use as many surplus parts as possible, KISS and use up some materials I have
3) Aims are: use up surplus parts, make a good long router, sell it off then make a big router
I'd like a one box solution for the controller, looking at this at the moment https://www.makerstore.com.au/product/elec-scxprov5/ will find out if UCCNC can run it. Don't want to get involved in GRBL yet....
Re - stand/bench maybe a bolted together aluminium stand is the go. Will think more on this. I started designing the bench when Scoot was incomplete now he/she/it is here should design for CNC making vs hand saws...
Waiting for Z axis quote to come back then decide on that and start detailing... Peter