New Syil X5 Speedmaster from Charter Oak

I was so impressed with how well the X4 worked for me I decided to get the X5 from Charter Oak. Actually two (2) of them. I sent off my deposit check the week before last, and now I get to sit here and wait. Estimated delivery date is in March. My X4 arrived with a stand and coolant setup, but I decided to go with the PRO setup on the X5s. Hopefully that will allow me to get them up and running faster than the X4. I built my own enclosure and splash guards for the X4. The X5s will come with them. There are several things in chip management that look "better," but according to the pictures they still have those narrow throat plastic coolant valves I didn't like with the X4. Fortunately I bought a bunch of those chrome plated brass ball valves I used on the Hurco, TKCNC, and X4 coolant systems.

Well, not much else to say until they arrive.

I suppose I should add that Paul manage to get the machines with extended y-axis rails so that it will have a similar working envelope to the x4.

March has come and gone and I am still anxiously waiting. I was finally told the machines are in the Charter Oak shop about a week ago. They are still going thru them. I so want these machines in my shop. I had the spindle go out in my X4 a month or so ago and you can't imagine the panic I was experiencing while I was trying to get it going with jobs stacking up. http://www.cnczone.com/forums/charte...arter-oak.html . The X5s are 220V machines with a more powerful spindle, so if I have a problem it should be easier to source a replacement spindle. (fingers crossed - knock on wood)

Well, I got an email this morning. The two new CNC mills are finally ready to ship.

I also just paid the balance on my new 1440 lathe because its ready to ship.

This has been the longest two months of my life. (all three machines were ordered in January)

Oh, yeah. They are here. Still haven't powered them up. I decided to build a new air conditioned machine room inside the shop, and they had to be moved out of the way.

The machine room is done. Well, done enough to roll the machines in and hook them up. I'd caution anybody buying these that they still need to go thru them and check them out.

The Negative

One machine had a spacer missing on a ball screw, and a different ball nut that was not getting oil. The first would have made it impossible to cut accurate parts, and the second would have resulted in premature ball/nut failure. It seems an oil passage in the head was not drilled all the way through. I plugged the passage and bypassed it with a T and an oil line directly to the nut. I just turned a spacer on my PM1440 lathe for the missing one.

(Side note. There may be some minor issues with the PM1440, but I really haven't found them. I leveled the lathe and started making parts with it basically right out of the crate. They even cleaned all the cosmoline off of it and lubed it up before shipping it to me. Precision Mathews did a great job prepping the machine. Some of you may know I ordered it at about the same time I ordered the two X5s. I am not 100% thrilled with the DROs, but they get me pretty close, and then I mic to finish like anybody should.)

The XML files were about useless on both machines. There was a mis-entered datum in the step increments that caused the machine to switch from step to jog mode when clicking thru the step increments on the jog screen. I was fortunate enough not to break anything because of it, but I could have.

On both machines the X&Y were reversed. I don't get that. Its not hard. Had that issue on the X4 as well. Actually on the X4 the jog controls were reversed. So it jogged one way, but ran the other. I gave Paul a copy of my X4 XML file after I fixed all the setup issues. It would work on the X5 just as well. Don't know why they don't use it.

On both machines the limit switches do not allow for full usage and travel of the movement envelope. There is a cam mounted to the moving parts of the X&Y that activates a switch. On the X4 I was able to just mount the CAM by one screw in most cases in order to get enough travel. On the X5s the CAM seemed to jam on the switch if they were not positioned just right. Instead of activating the switch the cam would get pushed back. Also some of the mounting screws were stripped or had so little thread that snugging them down stripped them out. They were a 4mm screw. I was able to over size tap them to 8-32 to fix that problem, but on one I actually had to mount the CAM at an angle to prevent jamming and get good activation. On the other axis on that machine I took the cam off and ground a more gentle slope so it would engage the switch properly.

ANNOYING, But neither good nor bad in particular.

The cabinets are a little low. I have to stoop down to get in and position a part or change a tool. I can't just reach straight in and work. I may set both cabinets up on blocks or stands to raise them up a bit. I am 5'10" which I guess is around average for an American. I suppose it might not be an issue if your are only 5'2".

You have to have access to all side of the machines. The front obviously. You have to get to the back to add oil to the oiler and the air oiler or to open the electrical cabinet. One side gives you access to the coolant tanks, and the other side needs to be opened to turn on the computers. I may hack in a remote start switch at some point for the computer. I already checked the BIOS and I can't seem to set it to just turn on when powered up. Also, the computer is wired directly to the incoming power bus and is not switched by the cabinet power. To power it completely down I have to open the cabinet and turn off the 230V power strip, unplug the cabinet from the wall, or turn off the circuit breaker at the panel. The spindle coolant tank requires that you move the cutting coolant tank out of the way to check or fill. Atleast the hoses and wiring on the cutting coolant tank are long enough to allow it. If I built the machine I would put access doors on the front to access each of those directly. I suppose that's better than the X4 in some regard. It has a screw on panel on the back that you have to remove to access the coolant tanks and it has no chip management at all. I added PVC screens across the chip pan on the X4 so most the heavy chips atleast can get vacuumed up easily. I need a finer screen for that though. I may change to a setup similar to the X5 Pros at some point.

You can not run high volume high blast coolant when cutting. If a lot of coolant hits the side doors of the cabinet it runs out on the floor. I lost about two gallons that way the first time I ran the machine. Fortunately the filter screen on the coolant tank below the cabinet drain has a pretty fine mesh and you don't get too much clogging in the ball valve so you can get away with a lower amount of cutting coolant flow.

Space inside the cabinet is tight. I put a 4" mill vise on the table of the first machine and I was able to position it to use the range of the jaws without hitting, but there isn't much clearance. There is no way I could use a 6" lock down or mill vice in there. I considered putting a softjaw on the back side of the fixed jaw of a 4" vise so I could clamp 6" (Y) work pieces, but when I moved it around to try and take advantage of the available space it hits the doors with the screw. My only alternatives are to go to a screwless vise with the fixed jaw cut back part way or to make a tall block Infinity Vise like I made for the X4. The spindle nose to table minimum requires a vise to hold the work piece up atleast a couple inches or more with smaller cutters. I use a lot of smaller cutters. I just finished a job yesterday that required a .0313" (1mm is .0394" apx) ball mill to finish and a few jobs I do require even smaller cutters.

On a positive note:

The extended rails (longer than standard) gave me 11.8" in X and 6.6" in Y with out floating any of the bearings off the rails. I had to space the travel stop on Y out from the machine with washers and use longer bolts to do that. The bearing carrier does extend past the rail slightly, but no bearings are exposed.

These machines have 1.5Kw (2HP) spindles with ER16 collet noses. This makes them much more flexible than the X4 which has a 0.8Kw ER11 spindle. I am unsure if this is standard or not. The on-line specs said they were like the X4 spindles. I asked at one point for an ER16 spindle in these, and I never got a clear answer if I would get it or not. I expected them to show up with the same spindle as the X4.

They have air curtain labyrinth seal spindle noses to protect the bearings from chip and coolant intrusion similar to the X4. Unlike the X4 there was already a filter/regulator and an oiler plumbed in the spindle. I could not find a spec for the suggested air pressure to run, but I have read 15-20 PSI for similar spindles. I have the X4 set at 20 PSI, so I set these the same. They use a LOT of air. Enough so that I am adding a refrigerant style air dryer to my air distribution system in the next day or two. I am constantly draining the bowl type water separator at the compressor and sometimes a little tiny mist at my second one. They also use a lot of oil. The air oiler just barely cracked open on the adjuster will make the room smell of oil pretty quickly. I will not be extending the office air conditioning into that room. It will get its own standalone air conditioner, and air filtration system.

The automatic electric oiler that lubricates the ways and screws works exactly like the one on the X4. Set the time on and the interval and forget about it until it beeps at you that the oil level is getting low. I don't really know what the best oiling interval is so I err or the side of caution. I do a lot of short fast movements doing 3D milling. That will scrub oil out of a small area fairly quickly. I use over a pint a day (8hr (+/-) day) when the machine is powered up. Maybe more. That's about the same as my big Hurco mill so I figured I got it pretty close. I'd rather waste a little oil than destroy a machine.

There is a Z axis brake on the motor. That's cool. I haven't had any real issue with the spindle sagging or falling on the X4, but it is a much lighter head. Still its nice to know that brake is engaged anytime the machine is powered up. There is a gas spring on the X5s that matches the weight of the heads. Well I guess it matches since its a heavier gas spring than the stock one on the X4.

The X5 (the Pro version anyway) have some actual chip management. There is a large drain in the chip pan over a fine steel screen that sets on top of the coolant tank. Its a much finer screen than the one I am using for the improvised chip management on my X4, and so far seems to reduce chip clogging on the coolant valve and loc-line clone on the head.

So far I've only cut one job on one of the X5s. (The one that was not properly assembled) It was a modestly complex mold with some drop in inserts to do some things not possible with a standard two piece mold. The inserts were cut on the Hurco and measure out pretty good. The inserts were a perfect fit and the mold went together perfectly. It did a good job.

Am I happy with them? Well I have not cut any jobs on the second machine or even filled it up with coolant yet, but it seems ok. The first one did a good job after I went thru it. I was pretty angry while I was going thru the machines getting them ready, but I think they will do what I want them to do.

Would I buy them again? I don't know. That depends. If I was a total neophyte like when I bought my Taig ten years ago I'd probably still be jumping up and down screaming about the one machine. The other one probably could have been run as it came out of the crate if the XML file was properly setup for the machine. With the machine repair and building knowledge I have now I might... even knowing I might have to spend a few days working on it to make everything right. Actually now that I am familiar with them I am sure could go thru one in a day or less. As a neophyte beginner like I was ten years ago? I don't think so.

As production picks up will I buy more of these machines? Maybe, but probably not. Only if one of these gets cooked beyond my ability to repair, and the life before that justifies their cost. I have three small envelope high speed CNC mills now, and one larger fast powerful machine with a lower speed spindle. (The Hurco KMB1 with 3600RPM spindle) To be fair the X4 has more than paid for itself. Now that I have them fixed and adjusted I see no reason why the X5s won't either. What I need next is a larger envelope rigid high speed machine. I kinda like the look of the SaleCNC mold makers, but I haven't been able to talk to a single person who owns one. I'll probably wind up building a couple if time allows. I've got a sort of "hack" plan for a cast iron frame hybrid fixed gantry moving table machine inspired by the SaleCNC mold makers. Maybe I'll post the design if it works out.

Ok... boiled down. Love them or hate them? Probably slightly on the happy with them side, but not thrilled beyond belief.

I edited the post above about ten times. I think I'm done now.

I should add when I said X & Y were reversed I meant that they went in the wrong direction. Not that they had swapped X & Y.

The day before yesterday I improved my filter dryer situation. I got rid of my large canister desiccant dryer and installed a refrigeration style air dryer. Had the air system down for two days due to chasing fittings, but we got it up and running late on Tuesday. I put a filter separator on both sides of the new air dryer so I can keep some compressor moisture and gunk out of it, and see how well its working. It seems to be working really well. I get cold air at the downstream separator, but no discernable moisture.

I ran a second job on the 1st X5. (Still haven't run any on the 2nd one as I am checking it for everything I find on the first one as I go.) About half way into a roughing operation I started hearing bad cutting noises. I ran out of the office to see what was going on in the machine room. It seemed like the spindle was losing power and speed. It would drop from the 24K it was programmed at to a few thousand, and it was obviously not developing the torque for the job. It screamed and cut badly so I watched it and opened the electrical cabinet to look at things to see if I could isolate the problem. The VFD said it was a solid 400hz, so it was getting signal from the break out board. My best guess was a loose connection somewhere and the motor was losing a phase. I hope it didn't damage the VFD. (Its got a Delta so it might be ok.) The problem was intermittent. It would happen for a few to several seconds, and then speed and power would pick backup. A little while later it would do it again.

I shut down the machine and started looking for problems. I pulled on all the connection at the VFD with a pair of needlenose, and nothing came loose, but when I went over them all with a screwdriver several were not as snug as I would prefer. (I've been a communications and control system tech for nearly 30 years and owned my own business for over 20. I know how snug a screw terminal should feel.)

Then I pulled the top cover off the head to get a look at the top of the motor. My thinking was maybe a cold solder joint in the motor connector. I found the cable was pulled really tight and zip tied to the coolant lines so it stayed that way. It might have been putting enough strain on the connector to pull it sideways and cock it over a bit. It was tight. It took some effort, but I worked some slack up from the control cabinet and reinstalled the motor connector. I didn't open the connector to look at the solder joints, but its pretty easy to get to if I decide I need to. I wanted to see if that was enough to fix the problem.

I discarded the work piece that was in the vise and ran the exact same program again with no changes. Two and a half hours later I pulled a perfect part off the machine. I didn't find anything that was grossly wrong except maybe the cabled pulled tight in the head. Nothing I could put my finger on and say "this was the problem for sure." However, it did cut that part perfectly with no faults and then cut its mate perfectly with no faults. I guess I'll check the spindle cable in the head on machine 2, and then check all the wires and screw terminals in the cabinet.

So far except for the limit switches and the XML file the second machine hasn't had any of the issues of the first one. Its like they were assembled by two different people. Or maybe one was assembled first thing on a Monday morning.

Ok... I think I'd like for those machines to be a full foot higher off the ground. I started wearing glass about 8 or 9 years ago, and I have to stoop down, get partway inside the cabinet, and then tilt my head back in order to see what I am doing when I need to get my hands in there to do something. The X4 is higher up on its stand and I don't seem to have to get so contorted to "get in there" with it.

Alright, I have one peeve that I just have to fix.

If I run coolant slow enough to not spray the walls of the cabinet I get chip clogs. On the X4 I discarded the coolant manifold and made my own with larger chrome plated brass valves instead of the plastic ones, and it helped a lot. I also made my own coolant spray shields since it was a basic machine on a stand, and not the "pro" unit with the fancy cabinet. Back to the X5. If I crank up the spray the chip clogs don't seem to be as bad or as often, but if much spray hits the doors of the cabinet it runs out on the floor. Last week I tried directing the spray to hit the back of the cabinet. It wasn't as bad, but I still had some coolant pour out on the floor.

Those pretty cabinets are about to get their first ugly modification. I do a lot of high speed 3D pocket machining in aluminum and I really need that coolant blasting chips clear and keeping everything cutting smoothly. I'm going to hang some pieces of cooler shield strips inside those side doors. Two overlapping strips should completely block the door so all coolant hits them and runs down into the cabinet like it should. Those side doors are nice when I need to work on the machine, but they just are not well thought out IMO for people who blast a lot of coolant while cutting. I thought of lots of little things that "might" help, but I think this simple brute force approach is the way to go without spending a lot of time on it.

FYI: These machines do have a 1/32 (+/-) perforated metal screen filter that the coolant runs through to get back to the coolant tank, but the fines will still clog up in the valve if it isn't nearly wide open. If I keep the coolant tank full the chip clogging isn't as bad, but you know how it is when you are trying to get parts done and out the door. Its definitely better than some small machines for keeping the bigger chips in the cabinet where they belong.

Its been a while now. The 2nd machine had a very sloppy Z axis ballscrew, and within a few jobs the spindle bearings started screaming. The spindle cooling pump started making noise on the other machine about the same time, and both machines had control cabinet fan failures, and the gas spring on machine 2 failed pretty quickly. I also had a hand full of relay failures. One of those was the cause of the spindle cut out problem I mentioned above.

I did get a replacement gas spring from Charter Oak no charge, and that was about the last support I got. The guy who replaced Paul just doesn't have the follow through Paul did, and Tony just passed my issues off to him when I called Tony directly. They say he responded to my emails, but I never got them. No not in junk mail either. Even when I wanted to buy parts (wasn't asking them to honor warranty or anything at one point. Just get me the parts I needed) just so I could get them up and running. I don't think they stock much in repair or replacement parts and they are not setup to fully support customers. I couldn't even BUY for cash money replacement spindles. I went after market on both the spindle for the X4 I had to replace and the one X5 spindle I had to replace.

Since I stopped getting support (or stopped receiving responses that "were sent") I contacted Syil China who promptly promised to take care of all my problems after that Chinese holiday, and they hinted they would like to partner with me and see me make more machining videos featuring the Syil Speedmaster mills. That was the last I heard from them. I think that was either December 2016 or January 2017. I'd have to go back and check my email records. I don't ever delete anything except spam.

I pretty much fixed all of the issues out of my pocket because I couldn't afford to have machines sitting there for months waiting on somebody to eventually come thru. I figured if they ever came thru I'd have spares. Well, I don't have spares. LOL.

The backlash on the machines does not meet the published specs. The oil passages on all three Syil machines I own were not complete one way or another. Both had ballscrew issues. Either in quality or in installation quality. My first thought on the one ballscrew is it was a used worn out one. I replaced the fixed bearings and it made a difference, but it was still bad. Finally I replaced the complete screw assembly.

If you understand these are a starter kit they are "ok" but I sure wouldn't count on being able to just uncrate it and use it.

I did try to contact Jeff at Syil America about buying replacement parts as well but he was either unable or unwilling to help. I think he is the one who originally told me I should contact Syil directly because they "were pretty good about taking care of customers." I already kind of knew that wasn't true for me. On the X4 there was a majorly defective part that had to be replaced with OEM, and Syil kept making excuses until Paul made an implied threat to stop selling their machines if they didn't take care of me. I miss Paul. I think if he was still with Charter Oak I might still do business with them. Tony seems to be a good guy, but Charter Oak is not the only thing he does, and Paul's replacement just doesn't follow thru. Even on the phone directly when I tried to buy parts. I wish them the best of luck, but I probably won't buy any more machines from them.