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Hello everyone. I really enjoy machining and making things out of "nothing", and I feel as though I have a lot to offer. I recently picked up some equipment like a HAAS VF-1, and a hardinge lathe, so the question is how did you find clientele, do you go around knocking on doors? Word of mouth? internet? Took out ads in your local paper? Just kind of looking to get my foot in the door so to speak. Thanks everyone
The best thing you can do is show up in person . Dont expect an easy job unless you know somebody on the inside.
No one will ever be able to compete on equipment unless it is really special equipment. Getting work is about you and what you bring to the deal.
At best you do something special and tell the world in a special way. Find a niche and build from there.
One of the best books on marketing in the current age is "Purple cow" by Seth Godin.
Having a machine will not be enough :)
Customers find me on the web or by word of mouth.
Tell ya what. I've been thinking of having some stuff done, and I can let you know why I haven't so far. The problem is, I don't want to be embarrassed. If having something done is too much money, I don't want to be laughed at. The web sites here in ***** show lots of examples of their work, but I don't have any idea what it costs to have someone to perform the work. It's not that I don't have the resources, I'm kinda lucky that way, but I am on the edge of cost vs. doing it myself (after all, having a job done is trading time vs money). If you want to get started, put up a few examples of some jobs on a web site, along with the cost. Sure sure, I know there are all kinds of variables, but spell out the way you cost out a project.
After all, even a fish needs to see the worm first!!!!
Tburizo if you have the equipment that is right for the job and equal to the competition then of course it is always going to be cheaper to do it yourself. Those of us with shops are not doing this for fun we must generate a profit to keep the doors open but no one is going to laugh at you we will just submit the quote and that is that, you can then decide which way is best. To put up a picture of a part then put a cost on it will not tell you very much there are dozens of variables involved like material cost number of parts tolerances heat treat plating ect. To put a price on a part is to give a false idea of what that parts may have cost to make a year ago versus what it cost today as well this is why we do not put prices on the pics on our web sites. It is not possible for me to tell you how I price out a project because every part is different. If it is something with enough parts to put in my CNC equipment it gets quoted one way if it is a single part to be done on manual equipment it would be quoted a different way. The same exact part made from say aluminum could be one fourth the cost of that part if it was made from something like a crazy expensive material like Aermet. Quoting work is an educated guess that comes from a lot of experience it is not something you can be trained in, sure you can calculate things to a point such as the time it takes to mill around a part if you know what feed rate you can run at and how many linear inches but that is only a small part of the whole picture. The industry standard is to get 3 quotes this gives you a good idea of the cost range and does not waste the time of 4 dozen shops. In fact if you are found to be one of those guys that gets 4 dozen quotes it is only a matter of time before no one will even bother to quote for you at all because it wastes so much of our time. Submit your drawing with all the required specs to the people that want to look at it and then go from there. Once you see enough of these it will help you to look at a part and get a very rough idea of the price range it will be in
I understand there are variables. I understand logically that no one will laugh. I was just telling you why I haven't paid for someone to help me yet. I have no problem with the cost, as I value my time. Thought it would be useful advice for a shop just starting out.
Machinists always whine about losing business to China. I've been around a lot of them, and it's obvious why it happened. Businessmen would rather go all the way to China even for simple jobs because they don't have to deal with the attitude you get with American machinists. Sorry, don't mean to offend, but for a profession that's on the ropes, everyone sure KNOWS what they know, even in the face of abject failure of the business model. In China, you get attitude and you have the cops shoot the machinist then get the next one. Ahh, the worker's paradise!
:violin:
Tony Burzio
San Diego, CA
txcncman that is the case with me as well. I have been a business owner for 26 years and I quit making sales calls long ago. Word of mouth is a good way
to get new customers because you have already proved yourself to someone else.
If you are angry that jobs go to the orient then you are mad because of the wages being lower over there.
There is nothing you can do about it and it is just as useless as being mad about rain coming down.
Most cnc machines and their owners provide a commodity. Machine time to turn material in to part.
If there is a lot of that about, which there is now, then prices drop.
If you want to turn a profit you will need to add more value that makes customers want to buy from you, even if at a higher price.
Be creative.
I agree with most things mentioned in the previous posts especially those of CaptainVee and txcncman around levels of equipment and word of mouth etc. I'm just re-entering the market after a 10 year break away from the industry (although I still kept my hand in) and feel not a lot has changed whilst trying to get work in from scratch. Appearing in person is extremely important and being confident and knowledgeable about the market you are in is a necessity as clients will quickly see through you. I always do background checks on the companies I visit even down to how they are performing financially and what markets they serve etc.
Sure, once you are known, word of mouth does help but I've recently found that even this fails sometimes as one persons advantage in finding you is another persons disadvantage in not being given your name. Word of mouth is a great tool and a pat on the back for your hard work but don't rely on it as it's tantamount to having all your eggs in one basket!!
A good mix of machines, knowledge and experience and the ability to blend these together in order to produce a job/part quickly and efficiently at a reasonable price and with total dependability should see you with adequate work to make a very good living. It's obvious that you won't be able to make some jobs profitably when you look at them so don't be foolish and take them on as a loss from the outset. I've been lucky enough to work in very forward thinking and technologically advanced environments over 22 years before taking a break with all manner of machines, materials and tooling but these don't make the reputation or the man. Far from it!!
Recently I've gained work for loading on basic 3 axis vertical cnc mills that would be easily and rapidly machined on 5 axis but I don't currently have access to these capabilities at the moment. Why have I gained this work? Easily the answer in most cases is on cost to the client even though multiple setups are required. Most companies with 5 axis machines charge exorbitant prices per hour as their machines cost a small fortune to install and therefore add to their inflated overheads and price themselves out of the market. This makes sense doesn't it? Trouble is they don't know how to use 5 axis machines properly and are unable to program them to take advantage of their capabilities and therefore suffer from what many companies suffer from these days which is too much capital cost versus available work, basically their outgoings are too much against what the market will allow them to bring in through the door. Effectively 5 axis machines are purchased initially in many cases as a marketing/capability prowess or a glorified statement as they haven't priced its operation or the cost of hardware (tooling & workholding) and software (CADCAM/Programming capability) into the whole process. You need to look at everything holistically including pricing jobs at the same price as 3 axis/prismatic work or cheaper including rapid throughput to keep a 5 axis machine at the peak of its productivity. There are exceptions obviously and especially so in high value one-off/small batch type work but this is still not a reason to rip the arm off your client by doubling or trebling your prices because you use a 5 axis machine.
Forget about the Chinese factor, as mentioned you can't do anything about it. The same thing happened after WW2 with the Germans and the Japanese although the Germans maintained most of their work within their borders. What goes around comes around and the world operates in cycles so although it may seem your own country is not competitive and the domestic workforce are useless etc., don't let that stop you or set you back. Look at things from a different direction and analyse your competition...identify weeknesses and more importantly strengths which are usually very few and far between and relied on far too much.
My first post on here and a longish one. Hopefully you are still awake?
It is not an attitude thing it is a cost thing, I am not sure who you have been dealing with but I opened my company 28 years ago and I have never run into anything like that. Also it makes no sense to take the simple low volume or one off jobs to China that does not happen, the problems you have to go through are just not worth it and the garbage you get back is just horrible. I have several customers that take parts to China and in the last year I am seeing a lot of those parts come back to me because they are getting such garbage that the parts are not even functional. The only reason anyone takes parts over seas is they get them made for next to nothing, I have seen parts made over there for less than what I pay for material because the government over there manipulates it currency and subsidizes companies in an attempt to destroy American manufacturing. It is not only the wages of course it is the regulations American companies have to deal with that do not exist in these 3rd world countries so there is a whole lot more to it trust me I have been around this for years.
It is starting to turn around a bit for a few reasons lead times to get parts from China are getting crazy 20 weeks in some cases, China demands 50% of the money up front, large companies are trying to push American vendors out 90 days for payment. The quality is getting worse and worse as more companies pop up over there, I have even seen them swap materials for less expensive substitutes without asking, I have seen them change tolerances on blueprints without asking. On top of all this there is the language barrier and the time difference , still a certain class of work is there and will never come back.
If you are getting an attitude I am really surprised if I was you I would certainly not do a thing with a company like that, in my 28 years I have never run into anything of the kind, I do get it from my customers from time to time but never from a vendor that was doing work for me. I do not know your situation I know a lot of people in here are hobby kind of guys that makes a huge difference, if you own a company and are trying to generate a profit then things work a bit different. If you are a hobby kind of guy then I can understand where you might be seeing that attitude problem. Some companies will see you as a nuisance because you are unlikely to bring return work and may be looking at only a small job to begin with. I have had quite a few hobby type guys come to me for work and the way I look at it is work is work I don't care if it is only one part as long as I can make the money I need to make on it. I think if this is your case and you are looking for someone to do work you are far better off with a smaller company we just do not look at things the same way the huge corporations do.
CCracer I think you are way off the beam on your ideas on the 5 axis machine. I do not own one but I sure know the value they can create. The 5 axis machine is capable of making parts for much less money due to reduced set ups and this is the reason some companies go into them. I highly doubt that a company is going to make such a huge capitol investment without proper justification, the return on investment is what drives ALL equipment purchases. One would have to be an idiot to spend many hundreds of thousands of dollars on a machine just to say hey look we have one, that just does not happen in a company that is run the correct way. The work that is staying over here these days is staying because we have this kind of equipment where as the companies in China do not. Our edge is and always has been technology and it is what is keeping the American manufacturer alive. You can not look at the cost per hour on a particular machine that is meaningless it is only the final cost of the part that matters and on the right kind of work a 5 axis machine is going to make that part a whole lot faster so even if they are charging 3 times the rate the final part cost will be less. I have no idea where you saw anything like you are describing but this is certainly not the way it works in the real world, if you know of a company that did such a stupid thing I don't think they will be around very long.
Joesz, I'm not off the beam by any margin within the context of what I was trying to explain in my post. Maybe I've not written it clear enough. It's a fact that many companies (admittedly I'm mainly referring to the UK) aspire to 5 axis type machinery and do so by the skin of their teeth without a second thought for tooling, programming, skills etc etc. In the last 32 years within the military & civil aerospace and automotive sectors I've seen all types of companies like this with just a handful actually benefiting from what a 5 axis machine can offer. In other words they have thought it through properly and loaded their machines with suitable work and utilised the advances a 5 axis machine can give them. By the way, I used to work for McDonnell Douglas in the late 80's on the C17 programme and spent some time around SoCal visiting vendors who where dipping their toes in the water with regards 5 axis just the same as here and without forethought. Since then US vendors have taken the lessons learned and moved forward whereas many subcon/vendors in Europe haven't yet or they are learning slowly. This is not a dig at anyone but merely a personal observation of my own.
I've been programming 5 axis milling machinery for at least 28 years for the companies I've worked for and also visited other companies throughout Europe to bid for work and to help them program them properly including high speed machining cycles before it was even known as high speed. I've been to China and from what I've seen they have serious capabilities but that is purely a reserve of the forward thinking Chinese companies who number but a few. Not long until they catch up though especially with Japanese manufacturers using China to produce low cost components. A large Japanese die casting company that I used to work for is doing just this and they have large output facilities in the US, the UK and France so they have logically progressed into China. I don't recall specifically mentioning cost per hour as its not something I use anyway.
I'm not in this forum to argue and have no reason to. I'm just putting my view forward.