Who or what cam system is doing anything with AI?
Can I show the cam system a cad model and have it output Gcode?
I have waited since the 1970's for this.
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Who or what cam system is doing anything with AI?
Can I show the cam system a cad model and have it output Gcode?
I have waited since the 1970's for this.
We are doing this, but unfortunately it's not for the public at this time. Maybe once the patent is final I can talk more about this.
hy bostosh :) if you have ideas, i would really like to hear them :)
there is not such a " for everybody reliable program " yet, because there are many factors that are not easy to implement, especially for shops with parts and process high variations; in some production enviroments, things planned at 1st hour in the morning, may change a few times in the next 2-3 hours
so existing automatization is there for less variable things :
... some conversational software can generate list of operations, starting from a custom blank shape, to a final part, as long as there is a solid tool registry with time consuming definitions that can match the list of needed operation; output list of operations is not yet considering tolerances, cutting specs are not adjusted with overhang, so is good only for simple rigid parts; the only thing that it does good is colision proof, until is needed to use a too big internal tool inside a small bore
... same idea as above, is taken a bit futher with mbd's for complex models, and uses cam tool library and operation register, and even can create a program for the cmm machine; even more, with generalistic file format, it can be optimized by your tool vendors with their specific tools, then sent back to you; it sounds so perfect, that almost noone uses it; i wonder why ?
... recognition software can scan :
...... a print and generate the solid
...... a real object and generate the solid by using custom feature recognition and faceting tools
all above exists, but not used very much
an intermediate aproach, that relatively gets some ground, is that of using predefined set of operations specific for each shop, in assocation with a predetermined feature format; this works as long as features are somehow identicall, then same strategy is aplied to them ( may be cutting, wire, etc ); this aproach fails when it no longer can identify some features as being associated with a strategy, thus main issue is with automatic feature recognition and association with strategy; in order for this aproach to work, is needed that solid files are in-house created, so to avoid compatibility isues with different file formats from other cam brands, or the way that other softwares defines features ... so this solution aplies to those that do their own product design, and in house machining, so, again, a very limited sector
last but not least, are local custom solutions, as each shop has different needs, but how many shops go that way ? i know one example about custom solid&process declarations for a similar line of product, in such a way that automatized many repetitive tasks; downside is that requires skilled personal to be used, and also to have experience, in order to create the definitions as relieable as possible; another example that i just remembered us about toolpath recreation from g-code, and strategy change + reposting
Identifiyng repetitive tasks is easy, while having the cam developer create a custom solution, is reserved only for big clients, while small ones can not aford the cost, so they are left with whatever parametization their current software allows; how reliable is that ? from this perspective, some use api, but this requires a more skilled programer than the usual cam programmer. I know an example of using api to create custom probing cycles, but this is only for a specific cnc brand, as there are many other ways to deal with probing. mr Dan B has his own take on api; if you are reading this, good luck, and may you finish soon and reach your goals :)
For small tasks, there is vba and the like, which is frequently used at hobby level,
last years, is not the ai cam that evolved, but conectivity; more and more programers realize the benefit of conecting to a cnc, and big plants are gathering machine usage infos ( cutting error waiting ) and plan preventive maintenance
another idea that is pushed, is the digital twin / kindly :)
and another example i just remembered, is by a cnc machine builder, simulating programs inside his software with accurate motion algorithms, so to fix or improve things, way before the real machine starts cutting; such algorithms are not available in cam softwares, or, if available, then very very limited
conversational software for robots programing ( path programable by jog ), being able to solve automatically for incoherent movements
so far, all are predictive, but there are also reactive applications, like robots that cut metal ( light cuts, not as heavy as a cnc machine ), and for repetitive tasks, they learn to autocorect position, thus to minimize deviation
all listed examples are so unique, that having an AI performing as good as top programmers, seems a bit far away, but definetly closer than how it was in 1970 :) but at least in machining metal, programers can stay relaxed, as nowadays AI is busy with central bank digital currency
mr bostosh, i want to thank you for a good advice that you give a few years ago : you said you craft those guitars at a shop ( you rent time, or something ), even if the machine is not yours, and the context was that is better to create a kind of trust enviroment, like not being needed to start on your own, but simply use what is allready available there and develop. I think it is a gold advice, as it teaches someone to not see an employer as a competitor, but a colaborator, like having a common goal, based on mutual respect / kindly :)
DeadlyKitten, and DanB,
Lambda Function | Enabling Autonomous Precision Machining
Check this site.
"Today, machinists essentially use algorithms from experience; Adding AI is the natural evolution"
It will be interesting to see what this can do, once you get past all the industry buzz words. Is this fully autonomous programming? Is there still human intervention required?
indeed Dan, i also noticed the buzz-words, but no show-off :) maybe they wish to keep it under the hood
there is this testimonial :
... This will be similar to launching Windows for the CNC machining industry
also this features :
... AI-Assisted Generative Programming
... Real-Time Load Monitoring
... Real-Time Tool Life Monitoring
... Continuous Kaizen Insights
... Adverse Event Avoidance
*okuma has them all
the okuma controllor indeed is something, but more and more ohters are closing that gap
the ones who will get out there the 1st relevant product, to cover efficiently most demands, will win, or at least have the 1st step advantage
by relevant product, i mean those automated tools, that can make one programmer life much more easier
in the end, is better to modify an unfinished solution ( thus spend time only corecting it where is needed ), rather than creating it full from zero / kindly :)
Adding AI to CAM is a fool´s dream or --
someone like Elon Musk who can succeed in getting 20B$ in funding and 10 years of support for it to start working.
It´s unbeliavably difficult to do good gcode,
to do good cam,
to do good parametric models for the cam to base on.
What would this following be defined as?
"AI-Assisted Generative Programming" (sounds vague)
Anything like automatic Feature Recognition?
Where the system attempts to do features that it is programmed to recognize?
Then seek human y / n verification.
You would not be using Parametric modeling, this is way behind, direct modeling is superior and has been used for more than 10 years checkout keycreator by KubotekQuote:
Originally Posted by hanermo
direct modeling is superior and has been used for more than 10 years checkout keycreator by Kubotek
This is the real thing, since Cadkey19.........
Back to AI......
What can AI do within the cut to mod/improve the cutter usage?
hy bostosh :) that was right from lambda page, please check attachedQuote:
What would this following be defined as?
"AI-Assisted Generative Programming" (sounds vague)
it sounds vague, because it is abstractization at higher level; it's so generalized, that it may seem that will fail, but will not, if configured properly only for a specific process
there are functions old, from decades, targeting CAD or CNC, rarely capable of doing both, as this requires having acces to motion algorithmsQuote:
What can AI do within the cut to mod/improve the cutter usage?
let's narrow it to an example : okuma has adaptive function, but most common nowadays cnc don't have it ... so one could install hardware and record loads from machine, then change the program, mapping feeds where is needed; he may call such a tool as AI, or as IOT functions, does not matter
nowadays, the term of AI on cam software, is more of a marketing thing, rather than actually boosting functionality at some unexpected / oau level :)
for most shops, classical cad cam is king :)Quote:
parametric, Recognition, direct modeling
feature recogntion is used more in reverse engineerring, by some research labs, or kids in garages with some diy/cheap scanners, etc
direct modeling is used more for parts for 3d printers, for stuff that the classical machining would fail, or be too expensive
such new tools, are not there to drastically improve machining, but are more and more towards additive
no one will fire his actual cam programmer, and get instead a 'direct modeling' guy ?!
if you look at all things, is hard or impossible to find the common ground, thus a too generalistic aproach, seems out of comprehension, not possible to define nowQuote:
Adding AI to CAM is a fool´s dream or --
someone like Elon Musk who can succeed in getting 20B$ in funding and 10 years of support for it to start working.
It´s unbeliavably difficult to do good gcode,
to do good cam,
to do good parametric models for the cam to base on
but look at the closer things, look at what is curently offered : those are not general functions, but more of customized approaches for imeadtly use
if i may repeat myseld, AI today, in machining, is marketing, not something that will do your job / kindly :)
" What can AI do within the cut to mod/improve the cutter usage? "
This is what i am curious about, ever since the early days of "Adaptive Control" (early 1970's)
I could sit on a proof run and listen to each move I programmed, and
also watch the horsepower meter fluctuate with the sounds of cutting.
Most of the run was not at upper HP, though tossing chips 20'.
the only machine control was feed rate 100% to zero.
40 ipm 2"Hss 2 flute, 3600rpm 60hp in Aluminum
Problem was good cuts, inefficient cuts, wishing I could adjust each cut. speed up most cuts.
If a program can "tune" the cuts? like have an AI algorithmically do this?
Correlate the input programmed moves to each move actually in "real time" on machine.
As an actual simulation rather than a "geometric" simulation
Cutter calc's, chip load, mmr, etc. on each move for instance.
Really detailed calc's and path adjustments.
Actually I think this may be a leftover from programming and listening to CNC machines too long.
I should just use ear plugs and not worry. make parts and don't beat up the machine or use too many cutters.
hy bostosh :) this can be done in 2 methods :Quote:
wishing I could adjust each cut. speed up most cuts
... passive ( not involving the cnc ) : loads are recorded for a few trial runs, then program is adjusted
... active ( involving cnc ) : special function, adaptive, etc
the difference between methods, is that in one case the program is recreated, while in the other case, the program remains the same
cuts can be tuned ... but is just a simple algorithm, not AI algoritmQuote:
If a program can "tune" the cuts? like have an AI algorithmically do this?
this thing, with 'real time', is basically a frequency function; load is monitorized, and the reaction occurs, as long as it is within cnc capability to do so; in other words, reaction is better at lower specs, while at high feeds, there is less reaction timeQuote:
Correlate the input programmed moves to each move actually in "real time" on machine
okuma machines can do this for milling .... even more, they can adjust more than once per spindle revolution : thus, for a 6 insert tool with tir, the cnc can achieve constant load for each insert, thus make it behave like there is no ( less ) tool tir
advanced adaptive functions, operate at higher frequncy, thus they are pretty reactive
nowadays, not only load is considered, but also sound and vibration; depends with cnc brand, but such goodies are still not largely used ... this are not for common parts, at least the develop functions / kindly :)
Sounds like Okuma has figured it out at the machine level.
Is the Control system "reactive" or "predictive"
I understand look ahead for trajectory smoothing, Very good idea
Can Ai capture the control adjustments and "learn"
( feed back to correlate with each each Gcode block )
And then upward into the cam pathing software?
What if we had unlimited compute and software development capability?
This YouTube blew my mind on the extreme details of their machine control.
Starrag Technology talk
"Blisk machining"
Turbine blades and hub from billet.
many okuma lathes from 80s are still running today, not only rough, but finish ... back then one could have animation, tool load monitoring, conversational programing, hicut ( special function for motion dynamics ), cycle time reduction, etc; it was a marvel, not only back than, but even in comparison with some new machines from 2020s of other brandsQuote:
Sounds like Okuma has figured it out at the machine level.
they do all stuff in-house, castings, electronics, cnc, parts, assembly, etc, so they can develop and test, without externalizations costs
look ahead :Quote:
I understand look ahead for trajectory smoothing, Very good idea
... 1-2 lines : adjust motion accordinlgy with next block ( 1 joint processing )
... 3-4 lines : radius compensation math ( 2-3 joint processing)
... 5 - tens : smoothing ( multiple joint processing )
... hundreds : numerical aproximation + smoothing ( multiple joint processing )
everything that happens until the reaction loop, is predictive ... after is reactiveQuote:
Is the Control system "reactive" or "predictive"
for example, calculating path is predictive; after that, keeping the machine on that path, is reactive :)
of course, this can be done : for example, there are milling robots, thus the spindle+tool is no longer on a rigid machine, but on a robot; being less rigid, will deviate pretty much more than a cncQuote:
Can Ai capture the control adjustments and "learn"
( feed back to correlate with each each Gcode block )
for repetitive tasks, the robot is calibrated, in a way that makes it cut a different toolpath, that, affected by deviation, will actually result in a good toolpath
so corelation with each block makes sense as long as the deviations are consistent, predicitible, repetitive :)
cnc machines have to deal with hazard, like lack of consistency, less predictibility ... and still deliver that accuracy; so functions developed for cnc machines do not intend to map back a program, but be reactive at a high frequency
let's consider a linear movement :Quote:
And then upward into the cam pathing software?
... the robot will have to cut a different predefined line
... the cnc will make many infinitesimal small corections while cutting it
thus the robot had no reactive system, it is simple re-programed for a different toolpath
the cnc is reactive
hobby sistems, or desktop plotters, etc, use a pc or a laptop :) a cnc has much more powerful electronics, it must be able to handle those high frequency loops, etcQuote:
What if we had unlimited compute and software development capability?
for example, okuma uses a pc only as interface with the operator, while in the back, there is the electrical cabinet, etc
software and computer power, of 90s, is enough for machining ... nowadays, many have performance relative to the graphic card, and have developed with those; it is a combo that sells, because many wish for the last version and a powerfull computer. Also, some old versions are no longer suported, even if they are still in use, so receiving a file format from a current version will no longer work on an older generation ...well, it could, but they have to sell :)
i have had the oportuniyy to discuss such things a few years ago, with someone that developer a wordwide top class cam software ... he opened it, showed the basics, then said this is it, from 90s, etc
in the end, is the client the person, the one, that actually puts the price, not the vendor ...the vendor is only happy to sell at that price, and be glad that the client is satisfied; a cam developer only wishes that the client will buy his product over and over again, but they can not sell him twice, so ... when you go down this path, you can discover things :)
so to rephrase, actual computers are ok ... and if you struggle a bit, you can find a software developer to do things how you wish :)Quote:
What if we had unlimited compute and software development capability?
i will look over that video you mentioned / kindly :)
in case you are interseted, etc, this is the 2nd post i do today, previous i shared 1 hour ago; check below if you wish :)
the cnc may have a blackbox that records data of machine usage, from various parameters, etcQuote:
Is the Control system "reactive" or "predictive"
checking those, it can see a trend, and for example, recomand preventive maintenance :
... oil leveles
... axis loads, spindle torque
so, it acts predictive :) may spare one from a costly downtime, by fixing some minor things now, before they turn into something worse
blackboxes, or data from machine, it can be used for modifing a program, thus g-code optimization :)Quote:
Can Ai capture the control adjustments and "learn"
( feed back to correlate with each each Gcode block )
but most shops, involved in data colection, simply gather data of machine timeline : incut, error, etc
thus data is rarely used for g-code optimization, but most used for machine park surveilance
in other words, there is a trend to be sure that the machine is working, but not necesarly optimized :)
look at this from the pespective of someone that delivers data recording systems : he can not optimize the machine or the process, but simply record some values, and sell that data to the client
so, if you are :
... a good machinist, you will try to use data to optimize the process
... management, will look into surveilanve, in cut-time
each one, to be implemented, has diffrent requirements :) but the 2nd one is cheaper, thus serveilance of many different brands cncs is easier and less $$$ than actually optimizing processes for each machine
i find it, and i looked only because, as you said, seems 'mind blowing' :)Quote:
This YouTube blew my mind on the extreme details of their machine control.
Starrag Technology talk
"Blisk machining"
Turbine blades and hub from billet.
it seems mind blowing, only if the information is new to the viewer, but in this sector, it is not new, and there are many turbine providers and capable cnc's
i attached some images, and please, check this enumaration :
... beyond infos from video that deal with crafting new parts, okuma developed solutions also for repairing :
...... using additive heads to simply 3d print a broken blade, or fix a mould, etc
...... using laser heads to heat treat a part, then continue with hard turning or grinding ( no more need to send the part to a heat treatment, then rechuck, recenter, etc )
...... creating turbines with replaceble blades, thus in case one gets broken, and there is no additive possible for reconstruction, the big turbine has grooves, that allow to change blades, then rebalance the system
...... 5ax autotuning systems, so to minimize positioning erros for complex pars; it starts with pivot detection, then activates an overall corection, that remains always active, not only in automatic mode, but also manuals; it simply takes into account geometrical errros, and tries to 'live' compensate
... mastercam has a 'self entiteled' best software for blades
the video that you shared is good to catch the eye for potential clients of that machine, while solutons offered by okuma are there to meet real on shoop-floor situations, that literally can save the day, while if there is a less capable cnc, then that machine will get you stucked, not possbile to finish the part within time, or not at all
i have had the chance to see aditive heads at work, on rotary attachements, thus attachement with cnc pivot; they where fixing wear on a big mould, and the cnc windows where not transparent, but like those glases from welder helmets, that have to filter liight, so to avoid damaging your eyes / kindly :)
very informative ! Thank You
there is this testimonial
I still don't understand your discussion.I am a CNC enthusiast and have designed a lot of products myself.
Most of them are marble beds. (Mineral castings)