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New to me Tree Journeyman 425
I’ve wanted a cnc milling machine (and lathe) for a long time. After converting my router to Centroid Acorn, I knew I wanted my other machines to run their control as well. I just got this machine home. Was 150 miles away. Weighs 6000 pounds, CAT40 spindle taper, oiler, coolant, Baldor DC servos, 7.5 HP spindle. I think it’s a perfect candidate for control retrofit and will be a great first cnc mill for my shop. Seller needed it out of his shop. I got it for scrap value or a little under.
I’ve done some searching and come up dry trying to find schematics. Would be helpful for the conversion.
Plan is AllInOneDC, new VFD, complete rewire, cleanup, etc. I will be using a single phase supply into a Fuji Electric FRN0047C2S-2U 15HP VFD.
I’m very much interested in/asking for input.
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Made it to my shop without incident.
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Delta 20 control.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...739fb2bf.plist
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Re: New to me Tree Journeyman 425
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Re: New to me Tree Journeyman 425
Looks like a fun project. One that I have done a few times.
I would start by tracing wires from the field devices: Limit switches, prox sensors, pumps, ect. Write it all down, device, function, wire color, wire number, cable identifier, and connection points on both ends. Now you have an I/O map to work from. Then you can strip out all of the hardware that will not be used, but I would keep all of the heavy power handling components in place if they can be reused.
Then create a new I/O map with all of the connections to the new hardware. Makes wiring it up pretty easy.
I'll be watching your progress :)
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Re: New to me Tree Journeyman 425
Jim,
Thanks for the great advice. That's the plan. I'm currently trying to sort out a suitable spindle drive replacement that I can use with single phase power.
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Re: New to me Tree Journeyman 425
My pleasure.
You might concider a rotary phase converter to supply power to your spindle. That's what I did with my 10 HP lathe spindle, running it on a 10 HP VFD, but supplying that with the 3 phase from the RPC. I built a 15 HP RPC. I am running my 7.5 HP Haas spindle on single phase, but the machine was designed for single or 3 phase input.
In that HP range there may be VFDs available that are rated for single phase input, but don't buy a cheap one off of EBay. Also you are going to want one that has sensorless vector control to maintain torque at lower RPMs.
It is also possible that you could use the original spindle drive if you can find the specs on it. Maybe the documentation is available. Pretty sure that this would require 3 phase input, so a RPC would be a good option.
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New to me Tree Journeyman 425
The original VFD is not working. I don't want an RPC. I'm fine with buying a 15HP VFD. Will this drive do the trick Fuji Electric FRN0047C2S-2U 15HP VFD? It will work on single phase input, derated to 7.5HP/11KW, 26 amps.
I'm a little foggy on the sensorless vector part of the conversation.
Motor nameplate:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...eb2daefb.plist
Original drive nameplate:
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...2ea15734.plist
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Re: New to me Tree Journeyman 425
That VFD does have sensorless vector control (Dynamic Torque Vector control (Induction Motor)) It's a method of maintaining full torque throughout the operating range of the motor. It's done by electrical magic inside the VFD.
https://www.wolfautomation.com/media...-seventeen.pdf
But, your motor is rated at 39 amps at lower RPMs, and that VFD is only rated at 26 amps max when running on single phase. The original VFD is rated at 36 amps max. Spindle motors are kind of strange animals, they actually draw more current at low RPMs than at the higher ranges. My lathe spindle is running at about 90% load (current) at 300 RPM, but at 3000 RPM it runs at about 50% load with about the same torque generated throughout the range.
https://www.wolfautomation.com/media...5-appnotes.pdf
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Re: New to me Tree Journeyman 425
Can I run the spindle with a 26 amp limit (drive's output limit)? I understand it t would have less power.
Or, do I need to accept a RPC is in my future until I have three phase service installed?
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Re: New to me Tree Journeyman 425
A couple of problems with doing it that way. You could run the VFD in V/F mode with slip compensation off, but doing this would severely limit your low speed performance and could cause stalling under moderate load conditions. Also the speed control would suck at best.
On some VFDs you can set the output voltage lower than the motor rated voltage, and then back down the maximum output current to about 75%. At least you might have a chance of getting it to run that way, but I have never tried it. But it's still going to trip out if it goes over current. And that is a really bad thing when the cutter is buried in the work, just make sure that the drive fault is tied into the E-stop circuit. At least there is a chance that you won't break the cutter and destroy your work when the drive faults out.
I know you don't want a RPC, but it is really the cleanest method of running your spindle.
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Re: New to me Tree Journeyman 425
Thank you so much for the information, Jim!
Is a 15hp RPC the right size? Any suggestions on that front? Any derating or anything?
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Re: New to me Tree Journeyman 425
With a 7.5 HP spindle, a 10 HP RPC would run it just fine. American Rotary is one good option, they have CNC rated RPCs https://www.americanrotary.com/
Phase Perfect is another option, all solid state, no motor required. https://www.phasetechnologies.com/pr.../phase-perfect
There are others.
Or you could just build your own, sounds like you have enough electrical experience. Lots of information on the internet and a few build threads on CNC Zone I think. I may have a build thread on here for mine.
The good news is that with a RPC you can size the VFD to the spindle without derating. But remember the full load amps when choosing a VFD.
EDIT: A little more research indicates that a 15HP RPC would be a better match for that motor given its unusually high full load current for a 5.5 KW motor. Also, it looks like a 15HP VFD would also be in order, but a 10 HP would work if you don't push the machine to the max. I suspect the full load current is so high because of the 200V rating vs. a normal 240V motor.
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Re: New to me Tree Journeyman 425
The good news is I could start with the 15hp vfd and single phase to get the spindle turning and see how it does. Then add the phase converter later. I appreciate your advice. Thank you!
Wondering if anyone has schematics.. I can as-build if I don’t find them.
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Re: New to me Tree Journeyman 425
Quote:
Originally Posted by
slodat
The good news is I could start with the 15hp vfd and single phase to get the spindle turning and see how it does. Then add the phase converter later. I appreciate your advice. Thank you!
Wondering if anyone has schematics.. I can as-build if I don’t find them.
Sounds like a good plan.
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New to me Tree Journeyman 425
Spent several hours and a gallon of cleaner scrubbing the coolant and grime off the mill today. Will need another pass of cleaning. After getting a closer look, I’m still happy with the machine. Should work well for my needs.
Going to go with a 15hp VFD so I can run the spindle on single phase.
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Not sure what this motor is on the X axis. It’s not the same as the Baldor on the Y.
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Re: New to me Tree Journeyman 425
ZPS CNC sent me the manual and schematics for the mill today. Lots of questions answered. For anyone looking for support, parts, etc they are the people to contact now.
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Re: New to me Tree Journeyman 425
Looking good! Want to come by and clean my mill? :)
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Re: New to me Tree Journeyman 425
Cleaning that dirty old beast was no easy task!
Schematics in hand I set out to test the control. It powered up, all faults cleared and I was able to reference the machine.
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The Dynapath Delta 20 control is working. Going to sell the old control.
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Re: New to me Tree Journeyman 425
Received the 10hp HY VFD today. I currently have accel/decel both set at 8 seconds. Single phase supply sees about 20a peak on that acceleration time. Running current, spinning the spindle only, is 6a in, around 5a out.
I don’t expect this drive to perform like a drive that would cost 10x the $300 I paid for it. It is nice to see the spindle move. For the money, I can see why guys like these drives.
I wonder what the old drive’s life was like..
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Re: New to me Tree Journeyman 425
Looks like it needed a bath. No wonder it fried, it couldn't breathe.
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Re: New to me Tree Journeyman 425
Moved the mill into its home. The toe jack made quick work of moving and turning the 6000 pound machine. I’m not going to set it on the floor until it’s up and running. I need a machine try pry bar to lower it off the bar its sitting on.
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Re: New to me Tree Journeyman 425
Removed the Dynapath Delta 20 Control and servo drivers. Hoping I can get a few bucks for it all to help pay for the new stuff. The cabinets were like the rest of the machine. Absolutely filthy. A little better now.
I could put the new control in one cabinet, but I think I’ll stick with the existing layout with the incoming AC supply and spindle drive in a separate enclosure. It’s already laid out that way.
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Re: New to me Tree Journeyman 425
That's the way I would do it, power handling on one side and controls on the other. Really helps with the noise issues keeping the power and controls separated. Looks like the cabinets cleaned up nicely.
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Re: New to me Tree Journeyman 425
Worked on the X and Y axis servos. Removed the 500 pulse encoders and tachometers. Mounting the new encoders looks straightforward. Half inch shafts in the two different servos.
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I’m thinking I’ll make a new end cover.
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Re: New to me Tree Journeyman 425
You should be able to get rid of one of those cabinets. You could probably use the surplus one as emergency accommodation! With sensible (normal) wiring precautions including a proper EMC filter, you shouldn't have an issue with VFD noise. If you have to use two cabinets to avoid noise issues, your wiring needs another visit.
Unless you plan to use this machine for hacking the top off large castings, it's hard to see how you could make use of much more than a few kW of spindle power on a continuous basis. Seems the motor is rated at 3.7kW continuous and 5.5kW peak which is about 5hp and 7hp respectively - so something like a Yaskawa 3.3kW drive (which is also specified with a similar short term peak rating, not surprisingly) would be fine. Even a non-industrial drive like a HY 5kW would probably suffice for most hobby work. The good news is that the spindle motor is a proper variable speed jobby, so should be happy to run at high speed all day.
If you enter the motor nameplate parameters into the VFD, it should protect / prevent overloading the motor, without having to second guess and fiddle the values. Looks to me as if the HY inverters use sensorless vector control, which is pretty much the norm these days, would be surprised to see otherwise. Typically they boast of 150% torque at stall which is a bit of a giveaway.
Looks like a fine machine despite its age, rather like my Shizuoka AN-S. Mine was a very similar size and spec to this but for most of its life almost certainly never came close to the sort of performance it provides nowadays when run with the modern HSM toolpaths you get with the likes of Fusion 360 / HSM Works. These paths allow a much smoother and more continuous spindle power profile with a higher MRR and less risk of overload. 3kW or so of spindle power will give a pretty impressive stream of chips that may challenge your ability to keep the cutter (and the vicinity) clear.
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Re: New to me Tree Journeyman 425
Drive is the GT series 10HP/7.5kW. The braking seems to be working well.
In V/Hz mode P0.00 = 0, the drive takes the motor up to full speed of 267Hz. When I change to sensorless vector mode P0.00 = 1, do autotune again, the drive only takes the motor to around 80Hz on subsequent starts. No matter what I do. Same if I go to torque vector mode P0.00 = 2, run autotune again, drive only goes to around 12Hz on subsequent starts.
I disconnected motor from spindle, thinking that had something to do with the autotune not working.
P2.00 = 0 (G)
Decoupling has no effect. In SV mode output current doesn’t go above 3a (about half of speed no load current) and frequency ramp is extremely slow. It’s not limiting output current.
I noticed autotune doesn’t change anything in P3 (SV) or P4 (V/Hz) settings groups. The manual says the RUN/TUNE LED will flash during autotune. It’s on solid during TUN-1. It does display -END- when complete as motor stops at decel rate. No parameters change.
For whatever reason autotune does not change anything in group 3 (sensorless vector) or group 4 (V/Hz). It’s not hitting any current limits.
Emailing back and forth with HY tech support.
Muzzer- we are on the same page. One of the reasons I’m leaning toward keeping both cabinets is the existing wiring is already laid out for it. Removing it doesn’t gain me anything I care about. Thanks for the info. I appreciate it!
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Re: New to me Tree Journeyman 425
Slodat, what made you change from the 15 hp Fuji drive to the 10 hp HY drive?
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Re: New to me Tree Journeyman 425
Quote:
Originally Posted by
fusion_crank
Slodat, what made you change from the 15 hp Fuji drive to the 10 hp HY drive?
There's a lengthy thread about a suitable vfd for the spindle motor.
The short version is, the HY drive is a temporary way to get the spindle turning for relatively low money. I plan to use it for a while and see how it goes. If it isn't up to the task, I will replace it with a better drive. The Fuji is not an option after all because the 4 pole spindle motor is at 8000 rpm at 267Hz. The Fuji doesn't work in sensorless vector mode to that high of frequency. So, I'm thinking the drive I will go with will be the Hitachi WJ200-150LF. Partially based on the recommendation of a member on here using that drive on the same mill/motor.
I've also decided to go with DMM 1.3kW NEMA42 AC servos and DYN4 servo drives with Centroid Acorn instead of Allin1DC.
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Re: New to me Tree Journeyman 425
Thank you slodat. That's great information. I have a Haas Mini mill that had all the electronics removed before I bought it and this information may help me use the stock spindle motor. I had been considering changing out the 7.5 hp motor for a 2 hp motor since they are cheap and plentiful, and this is just going to be a hobby machine. I had thought I was looking at about $1500 for a single to 3 phase FVD with the power to handle a 7.5 hp motor. That's just too much for me.
Please keep posting your progress. It gives me hope for my project.
Mike
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Re: New to me Tree Journeyman 425
The Fuji drive won’t run the needed 267hz (full motor speed) in sensorless vector mode. But, the Hitachi WJ-200 will.
I've deliberated on whether to go with Allin1DC and existing DC servos or DMM AC servos and Acorn. Ultimately I decided to buy the DMM AC servos. There are a few factors in this decision.
- First was the extreme cost difference for the software unlocks for the servo controls (AllIn1DC is a servo control) vs. Acorn. I have read and been told by Centroid they intend to update this with their next software release, "sometime soon".
- I am quite familiar with Acorn and I feel like I will be better served having the same control on both. At least for now. I can replace Acorn with Oak should I decide I need closed loop control. I already have an Acorn board on hand.
- In the case of a component failure, I’m only buying one component, not an entire controller. AllIn1DC has the servo drives built into the board.
- Cost. This system has a significantly lower cost.
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Re: New to me Tree Journeyman 425
Most of the parts have arrived. Was able to get the control, servo drives and servos bench tested. All went well. Next step is blow this apart and start the build out. Since I know people love photos..
(It’s bench testing. Not final work. I used chunks of wire I keep in a box for stuff like this. I know it’s a rats nest ;)
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Had a bit of drama with one of the motor pulleys. Found a used one at ZPS. They have been awesome for info and parts.
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Re: New to me Tree Journeyman 425
Had some time to begin panel layout. I’m going to keep both cabinets. I know I could eliminate one. I really like the way it’s setup with the VFD and input power in one and control in the other. There’s tons of room, existing venting for the VFD heat sink, etc.
What I’ve got thus far..
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...04f18fb7.plist
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...dcfdf3ac.plist
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Re: New to me Tree Journeyman 425
AC power portion is wired and installed. The machine has two control cabinets. Decided to keep them both and the AC side separate from the electronics. Reusing what I can, but not much original electrical equipment remains.
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Re: New to me Tree Journeyman 425
Wow! That's nice work. And such a nice shop.
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Re: New to me Tree Journeyman 425
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Re: New to me Tree Journeyman 425
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Re: New to me Tree Journeyman 425
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Re: New to me Tree Journeyman 425
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jim Dawson
Nice Work :cheers:
Thank you!
Started on the control panel today. Used a chunk of 1/4 aluminum I got from the scrap yard. Was some sort of sign. I’ll give the surface a once over with the burnisher next time I have it apart. It’s turning out how I had it pictured.
I need to weld the lcd bracket standoffs to the front plate, engrave the lettering and sort out the mounting holes.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...b1a8bf58.plist
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Re: New to me Tree Journeyman 425
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Re: New to me Tree Journeyman 425
Short video showing 200ipm rapids from far limits back to home.
https://youtu.be/QGiPrjAGaH8
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Re: New to me Tree Journeyman 425