Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality
As I grow older, no longer can I work as hard with my hands as when I was young, so automation and machine accuracy does help.
Besides, all of you are pros and I'm only beginning to learn milling (although being an electrical/software design engineer and small inventor, during my medical instruments design/fab career, I've worked with production engineers, machine shops, etc.)
Now, I neither need a CNC mill to earn money directly by repeat fabrication, nor am I hobbyist / amateur user. I am a small researcher who wants to build prototype designs (coming out of say Solidworks) so I may reach the proof-of-concept stage. This doesn't need aircraft-level precision; in fact just 2 or 3 thou precision can get you there. Even if one prototypes out a dozen that I build works well, I can go to investors, try to sell some parts or the idea.
May I ask all of you for your unbiased views on my conclusion below about what people like me (with a budget of say $10-15K) should consider buying (considering the Tormach video):
("unbiased" is bold because on this forum, most people reading this are Tormach machine owners. And, those who don't own a Tormach have shown more faith in the video review.)
1. What Jason says and the similar experiences of so many others (on Facebook, and in the comments section on the Youtube review), seem genuine and thus creates that fear of "risk" for someone who has never owned even a manual mill.
2. Why wouldn't someone like me risk just around $3500 for the
Microproto CNC with servos and that might get me the precision of 0.002" or so, rather than a $12K Tormach
3. And then I saw this:
Mini CNC 5-series personal mill which seems much nicer than the Tormach for about the same price or say another $3-4K more. (Not everything made in China is bad just like not everything made in US is good.)
Thank you friends, for your time and comments as they help a person like me a lot. :)
Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality
My unbiased opinion is that you shouldn’t buy anything at all the moment. Just discovering this video has unsettled you. It’s your decision – you need to do more research and let your ideas settle.
I get the impression that for the foreseeable future you'll consider any pro-Tormach comments on this forum to be biased anyway. So check out their home pages – buying a mill is not just about the machine itself – you also need accessories tailored to the machine. Download the manual for each machine and compare them. It may sound fairly irrelevant but check out the number of posts on the CNCZone for each machine manufacturer and obviously read the posts. This will at least give you an idea of the size of the user base. Try to visit someone who already has the machine you’re interested in. Often people ask on the Tormach group if someone in their area is willing to offer a demo so try this for all 3 machines.
One question you should perhaps answer yourself. You wrote “And, those who don't own a Tormach have shown more faith in the video review.” – but if they don’t own a Tormach, how do you think they know?
Step
Edit: Search on this Tormach forum for Tormach and Mach3. Make you own judgements.
Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality
Based on your 3 points
1 / any mill with dovetails will need adjustments , just the same as the angular contact bearings will . If Jason successfully adjusted these and it was a faulty ballscrew , then the only thing would have been to swap the ballscrew for a warranty . Theres not a lot to the mechanics to something so basic .
2/ if one of those tiny mills suites your needs then by all means , the resale value is decent if or when you decide to up grade , so is the same for most of the hobby mills . You'll likely find that the small benchtops need a fair amount of attention , maintenance and adjustment . And your cutting will be highly restricted
3/ much nicer in what sense . The machine is built on the same principles as the tormach , which means it will need similar maintenance . There is one reseller that I know of in the US and from what I read support isn't to hot either . You'll find complaints about the syil to.
Thinking about number 2 , if that small of a mill would do the size of parts that you need then the pcnc440 may be the right tormach for the job (if you go with tormach) . The downfall with a benchtop taig is that your cutting power is reduced greatly . The 440 can take decent cuts , they are fairly precise machines and they are cheap priced if you buy the basics
many of the comments in that review were from guys who didn't have the machines and there were only a handful who actually had the machines to complain . The problem with these kinds of reviews whether legit or not is that they usually produce mostly negative comments since that is the intention to begin with . There are a lot of guys who spoke up to say they were happy with their machines as well .
This kind of thing can happen for any product , especially when they sell a lot of product and some people have high expectations or have no idea of what they are in for .
I've bought other plug and machines that had issues from the start , but they were good after doing what I had to do . This isn't isolated to tormach ! I bought my tormachs without ever seeing one personally . The decision was based on numerous video's that helped me to decide that the mills capabilities would do what I wanted . And these forums are stuffed with a variety of happy tormach users . I un-crated mine set them up , threw my more complex parts at them and they've been running many parts since without a hickup .
I'd advise to read through the forums at the different hobby grade mills and get a grasp of the number of users , and the number of happy or not happy customers
I've worked in many shops over the years and I've worked with a lot of high quality brands . Some brands you can expect over night fixes but that is far and few between . The reality is that an expensive machine can easily sit for a week waiting on parts . This was common thing with the haas machines due to the incredible incompetence of the local technicians . They've broke things while doing repairs , then blame it on something else . Then they'd send the main tech guy who would flat out say they screwed everything up .
For 8 months I worked around a new $1.3M toyoda that never saw one part in that time because it needed so much work done to it . The lost work it should have done was in in the millions .
On the other hand I've watched a sleepless coffee filled matsurra tech who would would spend days and not leave the machine till it was 100% (except to go get more coffee) . I'd literally leave work one day and come back the next and he'd still be there .
The idea that you get what you pay for usually holds true but there are always the exceptions
Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality
Beware that the Y travel on the Syil 5 series is as short as that of a Tormach 440.
Which tool is right for you depends entirely on what materials you will be working in (plastic, aluminum, steel, titanium, ... ?) and how big the parts are going to be and how patient you will be when you make them. (Also: for any material/cutting operation that needs flood cooling, you want an enclosed cabinet.) The precision, finish, and ability to cut harder/tougher materials depend a lot on the spindle power and the rigidity/weight of the machine. Depending on what you want to do, a used Bridgeport manual might be the right choice -- we know way too little about your project to tell for sure.
Other options include desktop 3D printing (for plastic parts) and sending out for 3D printing (high quality plastics, and materials) to places like Shapeways, or sending out parts for manufacturing/machining to contract houses or people on this forum. You don't HAVE to have a mill to do prototyping yourself. The cost of a mill will pay for a lot of plastic parts from Shapeways!
Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality
Does the Syil use TTS or some other type of holder?
Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality
The Syil spindles I've seen have been BT30.
Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality
Thanks guys. Responding to consolidated questions/comments:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TurboStep
(a) My unbiased opinion is that you shouldn’t buy anything at all the moment. .... (b) Download the manual for each machine and compare them. .... (c) check out the number of posts on the CNCZone for each machine manufacturer and obviously read the posts. This will at least give you an idea of the size of the user base. ..... (d) Try to visit someone who already has the machine you’re interested in.
(a)-(d) are excellent ideas and I will try them all!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TurboStep
One question you should perhaps answer yourself. You wrote “And, those who don't own a Tormach have shown more faith in the video review.” – but if they don’t own a Tormach, how do you think they know?
Step
Btw, my sentence that you quoted above was for a few people on this thread who are speaking against Tormach. They can form their opinions using Jason's video review can't they?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
metalmayhem
Based on your 3 points
1 / ... will need adjustments , .... Theres not a lot to the mechanics to something so basic .
2/ ... that the small benchtops need a fair amount of attention , maintenance and adjustment . And your cutting will be highly restricted
... This kind of thing can happen for any product ,
And this is the other thing -- I figured it would be wiser to get a machine that needs fewer adjustments, maintenance, etc. even if I end up paying more up front. I guess at my age (59M) as the countdown to the end of my productive years becomes more evident, it seems better to spend more money to get the work done and not be stuck in maintenance and fine tunings rather than never finish. :) So I'll try to read manuals, forums, etc. to see if there are machines that require fewer settings and maintenance.
Like TurboStep says, maybe I'll hold off on buying until I know more.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jwatte
Beware that the Y travel on the Syil 5 series is as short as that of a Tormach 440.
Which tool is right for you depends entirely on what materials you will be working in (plastic, aluminum, steel, titanium, ... ?) and how big the parts are going to be and how patient you will be when you make them. .... a used Bridgeport manual might be the right choice -- we know way too little about your project to tell for sure.
... sending out for 3D printing (high quality plastics, and materials) to places like Shapeways, or sending out parts for manufacturing/machining to contract houses or people on this forum. You don't HAVE to have a mill to do prototyping yourself. The cost of a mill will pay for a lot of plastic parts from Shapeways!
My cutting needs are quite simple for now: (A) Cutting envelope: about 7" x 6" x 5" (X Y Z), (B) Material: most of the times aluminum, plastic and sometimes brass; maybe once in a bluemoon mild steel. (C) Complexity: Mostly simple parts that should be doable in 3 axis and if a 4th one is needed, I could either do some work around or add the 4th axis servo. (D) Speed: No big deal if a part takes even a few hours since this is about creating one-up protos. (E) Accuracy: 0.002 or 3 would suffice to go to proof of concept even though we could specify tighter specs on production parts.
The main reason to have my own mill is that I would be able to build parts and prototypes in incremental steps as I am not an expert mechanical designer on 3D programs like Solidworks to be able to first model complex mechanical assemblies comprising of multiple parts before sending them out to fab. For example, I might first cut a small part, then do a trial fit and if it works, then perhaps add some features and cuts on the same part (yes, repositioning on the mill would be needed but I'm hoping that should be doable if some reference point is left on the part).
Thank you for the suggestions on vendors for 3D parts.
Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality
If you requiments start getting close to 30k, i would look at one of these. 40 taper Atc with a real control.
Fryer Machine Systems Inc. - CNC toolroom lathes milling machines machining centers
Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality
Consider that even if you need a "cutting envelope: about 7" x 6" x 5" (X Y Z)" you will need to secure your part to the table. Depending on the geometry of your work you should assume that the table clearances/T-slots should be such that you have perhaps 3 inches additional clearance along all axis. For example, a vise may consume two inches of Z-axis under your part and, depending on jaw orientation, another 2-3 inches along either Y or X. Don't forget the additional Z requirements for drills/ reamers/ edge finders/ probes/ etc together with the tool holder/chuck. Load carrying capacity of the table may also be an issue on some of the smaller mills if you plan to have a vise or 4th axis + tailstock or other relatively heavy items on the table. To save setup time I often have both a vise and a 4th axis on my Tormach's table.
Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality
I manufacture running gear for gas powered remote control race boats.
I’ve said before I owned a real CNC shop before I retired where I had a FADAL 3016 with a 21 tool ATC, 22 horsepower and 10,000 RPM. I also owned a Haas TM-1 with a 10 tool ATC, 7.5 horsepower and 4,000 RPM.
One part I make took about 8 minutes on the FADAL, 15 minutes on the Haas and now it takes close to half time an hour on my Tormach.
I have 3 4 inch vises on the table of my 1100 and it runs for about an hour and 10 minutes to make 3 parts.
Fortunately, I have a 46 inch TV next to my machine so while it runs, I get to watch Law and Order reruns.
Would I like to have a faster machine? Sure, but I’d also like to be 30 years younger and 50 pounds lighter.
But my Tormach serves me well so I think I’ll just keep it.
Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality
No plugs for any manufactures but:
a. There will always be at least one lemon (it's a shame that someone gets it)
b. For the unfortunate person that gets it, the supplier/manufacture should replace it and find out why it's a lemon so they don't get any more
Converting manual machines to CNC can be troublesome and require a lot of work and sometime still not give you what you desire.
A purpose built machine as a turn-key solution should deliver what is advertised and if it doesn't it should be either fixed or replaced so the owner can _USE_ it as intended.
That video shows a customer who either with or without experience asked for a machine that could deliver what he asked for. The "salesperson" should sell a machine that meets those needs, not based on price but on capability of delivering what was asked for. If it's price based and can't deliver it should not be sold and a smart salesperson would say they can't sell a machine to do "that" at that price.
Better to lose a sale than make an unhappy customer.
I do not have and have never seen a Tormach in real-life.
A$0.02.
PS. About 10ish years ago I bought a Sieg Super X-3 mill. First power-on and the spindle sounded like it had gravel and square ball-bearings greased with coarse sand and broken glass in it. Finally a test run of it through the telephone to the supplier and they sent me another one and took the original away. All credit to the Supplier for doing the right thing ultimately but of course they didn't believe me at first! The machines spindle today still runs so quiet it's hard to hear at low RPM.
Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality
Quote:
They can form their opinions using Jason's video review can't they?
Epistemologically, those are less valuable opinions, though. Primary evidence always beats surveys, hearsay, and reasoning/speculation.
If you think you need a 6" Y envelope, you can't work with the Taigs / desktop mills, and the X5 and 440 are going to be a close call because of workholding and cases when you want to work on the outside of the part.
If you want to do minimal wrenching yourself, then a used machine from some reseller that does setup for you would probably be the best option; Haas may have this, Tormach does not.
Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bgreat
No, I think that the majority did watch but chose not to comment to on the video itself. Instead, they chose to express their personal satisfaction with their machine. The ball screws or the mounting there of could have been faulty. I get the idea that you buy a new product , you should get a functional product. With Tormach, it is clearly expressed in the user agreement that these machine will only be supported via phone and or email. That parts will be exchanged when needed as per warranty. So, to my point, one must be able to setup and validate a machine tool. With the Haas, they validate the machine once the machine is set by mill wrights. So the question is, was there any culpability on Jason's behalf? I think he kind of insinuated or expressed that to some degree. Personally, I didn't take the video as a direct , "Tormach sucks", review. It was more of a buyer beware announcement. A notice to others that this may be beyond their capability or will to engage in this kind of endeavour. That the higher price for the HAAS was worth it. The restocking fee and time to refund was something that seemed to really push his dis-satisfaction and maybe set his tone.
As to you insinuating that folks that have commented are cognitively deficent, that's a bit of a jump. BTW, have you had a similar experience with your Tormach product? What machine do you have and are you satisfied with it now?
I based my decision and purchase on a system to go from art to part! I shopped and waited for years trying not to be an early adopter because of cost. Still the learning curve was steep and at times expensive. I still get a gut punch when I tear up some expensive tool, Insert, cutter or break a probe because of some oversite on my part. Anyway that said the system as a whole has done nothing but get better.
I own a 1100 s3 with 4th axis that is about 4+ years old that is well taken care of and well tooled with high quality cutters. I also provide a controlled environment with clean dedicated power and to date I have had 0.00 failures.
Setup of these machines imho is no trivial task and took me a couple weeks to do alone. My Y axis did have some issues that I traced to base twist causing ball screw /gibbs to slightly bind and or added sticksion.
In short I have seen far less built with bigger tools and far more built with smaller tools. And it is up to talented and skilled people to get the most out of them.
Btw good luck with your purchase! Much to learn imho.
Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality
I have owned a SlantPro lathe and a 440 mill for about 3 years. Since then bought most of my tooling and accessories from Tormach.
I did watch that video review in its entirety - felt bad for the fellow and probably seemed that he was sold the wrong tool for the job.
In my personal experience I've had a few support calls to Tormach which have always been answered promptly and, when required, parts sent along with instructions and email follow-up to some questions I had.
The machines produce parts without problems, as advertised, without fuss. I produce parts appropriate to those machines though - and was well aware of work envelope, HP, spindle speed, and accessories prior to making the purchase.
For those looking to an alternative experience, go watch Ave's experience with his Haas purchase. I'm sure they are also great, lesser expensive machines, but everyone has an opinion.
Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality
Add me to the list of satisfied 1100 owners (Series 3, purchased 2013). Only needed support a couple times and they were good in all cases. Of course that was a while ago so YMMV.
If you are a complete beginner the 1100 is a lot of machine to wrap your head around. I had bought and converted several manual machines before I bought the 1100 so I had a much better idea of what I was getting into. I'd generally recommend that someone buy a manual machine first, or maybe get one of the cheap 3040 eBay CNC routers just to learn their way around at much lower cost. From what I read here, the happiest Tormach owners seem to be the ones who came to it with a decent foundation of knowledge around making chips and the CNC toolchain. It's not that you can't learn on a Tormach, but if you're looking for a way to get started while spending less money, that's what I'd do.
Beyond that, I think the best value with Tormach is the base machine. $15k for a new turnkey machine delivered with domestic warranty support is a good choice to make chips in many non-production applications. As a newbie I'd start there and add the PDB, ATC, enclosure, or other accessories as you clearly need them. A loaded 1100M for 30k may be a good choice, but I think that's much less obviously so. You can buy a decent Fadal or something for 10-15k, and save the rest for rigging, tooling, and spare parts/service. This assumes you can get help to minimize the chance of buying a POS or hard to support machine.
Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality
Pardon my ignorance but when kids hold smartphones these days that have computing power 1000x that of Apollos or Space Shuttles of the 80's and 90's, and the user interface simple enough that my 89+ mom can use them, have they come out with something smarter and affordable like this in CNC mills?
It's like I'm a computer engineer and love IBM-compatible PCs that I can program to do wonderful things but my wife can't handle anything but a Apple Mac as it does most things automatically. Of course, she pays more for a Mac, maybe 2x but it's still within range. Is there a CNC mill for non-machinists like me to which I could just send 3D designs and it could make the part for me (of course, after manually loading the metal, tools, some basic maintenance, and even doing some Mach 3 or Grbl basic programming as needed but with some built-in "Help" feature).
5 mil accuracy, create small aluminum parts (say even 4"x3"x2" xyz), $12K-15K max incl. tools, but something where I don't need a 6-12 month milling course.
Guys, I feel embarrassed in writing such mails that may appear stupid to you folks since you are all pros.
Almost all your postings have added to my confidence to look for a suitable machine with greater awareness, and I am doing that now. Thank you again!
:wave:
Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality
Quote:
Originally Posted by
4world
Is there a CNC mill for non-machinists like me to which I could just send 3D designs and it could make the part for me (of course, after manually loading the metal, tools, some basic maintenance, and even doing some Mach 3 or Grbl basic programming as needed but with some built-in "Help" feature).
5 mil accuracy, create small aluminum parts (say even 4"x3"x2" xyz), $12K-15K max incl. tools, but something where I don't need a 6-12 month milling course.
:wave:
Short answer is "No". That's what you can do with a 3d printer though. Just design and print. Machining is a whole different world. Its not just about using software to generate tool paths. There are a plethora of other variables come in to play. Work holding designs of complex parts can be harder to make than the part itself. Tool selection, material type, feeds and speeds, tool access to parts are just a few things. I've been machining for 8 years and there are still a ton of things to learn. Especially with unique geometry and difficult to machine materials.
Re: Believable negative review of Tormach company support and product quality
PathPilot is pretty good for the user interface part.
It's not "swipe left, swipe right," but it's better than many.
Separately, the "how to make the part" is typically done in a CAM package.
Tormach recommends Fusion 360, which you can download and use for free if you're a "hobbyist" doing it not-for-profit.
There is a bit of a "tax form" to fill out when actually generating the files from your CAM to take to PathPilot, but once it's filled out, it's pretty much the same every time.
If you follow YouTube tutorials, you will likely do well with Fusion 360 for building the part, and designing the tool paths, and then PathPilot to setup and run those files.
I'm doing almost exactly what you're saying on a Tormach 440, for approximately that cost (slightly over.) Note that tooling is a consumable -- you can't buy an endmill and expect it to last forever. (even after you're past your learning phase.) Router bits in wood last for a long time, but metal is not as nice :-(
HOWEVER! There is nothing that will "take scribbles and turn it into a solid model" -- you have to be comfortable drawing sketches with actual dimensions ("this square is exactly 36mm on the side, and the hole in the middle is exactly 3.2mm, and the square ends up being 5.5mm thick")
There are also really nothing that will take one of those solid models, and automatically generate the files for PathPilot. You have to tell it "use a drill to make this hole, and use a 1/4" end mill to cut out that side." And then you have to figure out how to hold the stock while it's being machined, without hitting the holders with the cutting tool ("crashing")
Those are really the hard parts of CNC machining, and haven't yet been automated.
Another option might be to send parts out to others (by not buying a mill, you save a lot of money to use for machining!) or 3D printing. (Some 3D printing vendors can print in bronze or steel or aluminum.)
