Changing tack from an old thread regarding my CNC build (later a buy-and-retrofit project), has anyone here had experience the following combination of items in the retrofit on a Sieg X1 micro mill?
- Linux EMC2 controller
- Gecko G540 4-axis step motor drive
- Micro-Mill CNC kit #1 from cncfusion.com
Just so you know, I live all they way down in New Zealand, where pretty much anything is scarce. I don't plan on buying from eBay (shipping to NZ will cost a fortune).
My budget is NZD$3000~4000.
It's the path less traveled. Or at least on this forum. I use emc2 and like it very much.Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenLead
Looks like a real bargain and buying one myself. Should work fine with emc2 (but there is a weird and lengthy thread going on in the gecko forum). Honestly this should work out fine. It's not scaring me away from buying. Kelinginc can package it with ps and motors. Might save a few bucks.Quote:
- Gecko G540 4-axis step motor drive
I have a mini-mill (X2) kit from them. Cncfusion is golden imo. Nice folks.Quote:
- Micro-Mill CNC kit #1 from cncfusion.com
No clue what it costs to import stuff in NZ. Best guess: costly :) I'll assume you already own the mill.Quote:
My budget is NZD$3000~4000.
I have already been playing around with EMC2 already, too. Pretty intuitive interface, although as you noted, sadly not as commonplace.
I don't have the mill yet, but I've also been considering the X2 as well (the retrofit kit with a Z-axis ballscrew looks quite promising). My local place to get mills of this sort, http://www.machineryhouse.co.nz, retails the X3 for NZD$2095, and the HM-10 (apparently equivalent to the X2, according to http://www.woodworkforums.com/showthread.php?t=78085), for NZD$1095.
I might flip-flop and opt for the X2, since it's comfortably within my budget and actually available in NZ.
Can't seem to find any mention of the G540 on their site, though :( Any ideas?Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclestart
Okay, assuming it's a X2 I want to retrofit. The CNC Fusion kit is for NEMA23 steppers - how much torque would be required from the stepper motors to drive the X2's screws for, say, milling of Aluminium 6061 molds for small plastic components?
Thanks for the helpful insight so far! :)
Just found out that for the X2, Kit#4 includes and upgrade of all three axes to ballscrews. Lookin' pretty nice there, may consider.
So the only issues left are:
- Making sure the HM-10 is equivalent to the X2
- Getting steppers of the right frame size (NEMA23) and torque (? oz-in)
- Figuring out how to do the retrofit, hardware-wise
- Figuring out how to get EMC2 to work with the Gecko G540, incl limit/home switches, E-stop, Aux devices, the works
- Figuring out how to convert PTC Pro/Desktop designs into G-code, accounting for cutter shapes and dia as well as machine size.
Any ideas?
Here is the page that has a package with the G540. It is about 2/3 of the way down the page.Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenLead
Alan
Thanks a bunch! Packages with parts known to be compatible with each other really make the process foolproof :)
That being said, foolproof is no substitute for good solid research and asking around on CNCZone.com :D
Whoa let's back up here a whole bunch :)
I assumed you owned an micro-mill. All I posted were my opinions on some vendors and products.
The kit from Keling is ample for anything smaller than an X3.. Honestly there are cheaper alternatives. I've tried only one of the alternatives and it didn't end well.Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenLead
Many factors in the choice of motors specs. There are better people here to answer that question. Lot's of combinations will work, but why not aim for optimal and most bang for the buck? The details of the machine and intended use have to be considered..
The bigger question is the choice of mill. I'm happy with the X2 but getting satisfying results from it wasn't cheap or painless. And what is 'satisfying' varies depending on the individual. Others have have used more ingenuity and fewer $. :) Consider what tools you have t hand and how handy you are at using them.
Syil has ready to run machines and possibly an Australian distributer(?) Taigs are available cnc-ready or ready to run. The Taig is light weight like the micro-mill but is by all reports in another league. It also has anti-backlash nuts unlike the micro-mill. Both these are a little above your budget, but not by a huge amount.
Wait for more opinions before spending a dime. Opinions are plentiful on this site ;)
I have both an X1 and X2, both converted to CNC, just finished the X2 based on Hoss's design and so far so good.
The biggest problem with the X1 is figuring out how to drive the Z axis, which includes a quill (unlike the X2). I got the best results from mine by locking the Z gibs and making Z moves with the quill. This limits you to its 30mm of travel, and rather complicated backlash which can be managed somewhat, but is not fun. I think the CNCFusion design for the Z-axis would be better for CNC purposes and would use this if I was doing it all over.
The X and Y (with the long Y axis) are relatively solid and have manageable backlash. Ball screws to fit the space would probably cost more than the mill, so you stick with the acme-type. I run mine with 125oz motors and a HobbyCNC board because I had them from a wood router, and work fine except are too weak for the Z.
I ended up catching a good deal on a used X2, and have been fitting it based on the Hoss design so well known around here. It took a lot longer than I expected and there were many times I looked back on my choice to not buy the CNCFusion kit. In the end though I did save about $300, and I learned a few things so I don't regret it now. That said if you want to get to your main project fast, then you will want to buy the kit.
As for the electrical stuff, I used 3x IM483 drives scrounged off eBay for about $75 total, a surplus 24V PSU, and 425oz motors from Keling. With proper alignment and fitting, the 425s are overkill and many run their mills with 269oz motors easily. The tradeoff is speed. Right now I can run an axis at ~25IPM comfortably with the gibs reasonably snug. That's really plenty for a mill this size. Wiring the drives up myself is another one of those "I forgot how long this can take" exercises. I am something of a glutton for punishment in this area.
With a CNCFusion kit and a G540, I think I could do a conversion in one long day or weekend. My project took about four months of weekend and evening sessions. I'm not done yet either but the machine runs in all 3 axes with <.003" of measured error so far. For the money I am happy. I also know how pretty much every part of it goes together.
Between the two machines, my take is that you do an X1 conversion yourself to learn how to machine and then use it to learn CNC. There is a good chance you will bang your head against its limits more often as time goes on. The X2 is still "very small" as milling machines go but it has a bit more headroom. If you don't care about getting your degree in amateur mechanical engineering then the X2 with the kits would be my choice. In either case you should be able to sell the mill itself for 60% or more of the purchase price so you're not taking too big a chance. Something like a Syil would be great but then you're talking real money.
Not yet, no. I tend to read up about stuff first, and test my ideas out on paper before investing in stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclestart
Syil Australia is no more. Even if they were still around, I can't afford to even get anything that big shipped from there to NZ.Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclestart
My budget given would be the "best case scenario" - given the exchange rate, I can't afford a TAIG. And it's still from Oz.
Anyhow, the point is I can't get the mill itself from anywhere other than NZ - shipping would cost a fortune.
The two smallest I can afford (and are actually available) here in NZ are the X3 and the HM-10/X2. Anything bigger is out of the question.
On the flipside, I don't mind paying for conversion kits from the States, though, as they should be much less costly to ship that a whole mill.
Ultimately, I'm heading to get up and going as soon as I can, although that doesn't imply corner-cutting.
sansbury
Nice to see someone with experience with both X1 and X2 weigh in.
I've only seen the X1 in pictures. My impression summed up;
-- lightweight compared to X2 so probably less rigid
-- 2000 rpm out of the crate. What rpm the spindle can survive unknown (to me)
-- No backlash adjustment on the nut as shipped (guessing here)
-- Slightly wider table than X2. The X2 table is really narrow.
Can the X1 be massaged into something suitable for machining molds in your opinion?
Would it be worth the bother? Maybe I underestimate this machine.
Honestly if the molds are small and detailed I like the idea of a Taig. For the spindle speed among other things. To bad there's no dealer in NZ.
It will be fun. Lots of help available.Quote:
Originally Posted by GreenLead
If you need 3D CAM software it can get pricey. Download some demo's while you're waiting for the machine to come together.Quote:
- Figuring out how to convert PTC Pro/Desktop designs into G-code, accounting for cutter shapes and dia as well as machine size.
Sorry for getting fixated on the price of things. I'm a cheapskate, there's no denying. This metalworking stuff has a nasty habit of chewing up disposable income in unexpected ways.
2 more things to consider:
1) given equal quality components, a small mill isn't much cheaper to convert than a mill one size larger.
2) Not many people here say "I wish I would have bought a smaller mill"
How good the X1 is depends on whether ou have the long-base version (which seems to be standard everywhere except Harbor Freight). With the long base it has as much Y-axis travel as an X3 and is reasonably rigid for a mill that one person can carry. The short-base machine is as bad as the worst critics say.Quote:
Originally Posted by cyclestart
There is a slit nut adjustment on mine but I couldn't get it much better than .005" backlash which was OK for my uses so I stopped trying. Repeatability was good and in many cases this is far more important. I tried making a delrin nut but it didn't make much difference.
The gotcha which I can't answer is how well the CNCFusion-style Z axis works. This gets to the fatal flaw of this machine. If you look at the KX1 (Sieg's CNC variant of the X1) it looks like the same X/Y but a whole different Z. I am willing to bet this is a sweet little machine.
I drive the quill on mine because I had a small motor handy. Others have reported that to drive the head up and down you need to run the gibs fairly loose and this causes the head to "nod" slightly as it moves. With the head locked, driving the quill solves this problem, but the backlash is tricky to cope with. I was going to try an experiment putting a much stiffer spring in the quill to load it, but got a good deal on a used X2 before then. As it was, I was only able to use it for 2.5D work since with a proper setup the backlash could be factored out.
There are belt drives available that will go to 4k+ and you can always replace the bearings.
What sold me was that the mill cost $300 shipped to my door. The CNC conversion was essentially free as I used cutoffs and skate bearings, and an $80 HobbyCNC driver and low-torque motors (except on the Z!) would do the job and I had all of those on hand. I did end up spending another $100 to put the long Y-base on. Even with this it was still $200 less than an X2.
Again, thanks for the help so far!
To reiterate, I can't afford anything bigger than an X2, as other options are either beyond my budget or aren't available in NZ. I can't do anything to change that.
Can't get a TAIG, as there's no dealership in Oz or NZ.
Since I can't get an X1 in NZ either, I'm pretty much stuck with eventually getting an X2.
So, I'm going need all the help I can get to get the right setup with the X2 for making those molds :|
Hi GreenLead,
Good to see you haven't given up on the CNC thing! So long as everyone's saying, 'Go Bigger'... How about a GL45 mill for a retrofit? I have a spare one, little use and nice and tight/tidy :) I was going to retrofit it for someone, but that didn't go ahead, now it is sitting unused most of the time. It was bought new from Chevpac last year. Has coolant pump, stand, etc. Travels are about 580 x 230 x 450 or so. It has hand scraped ways on the Y axis too, that surprised me. I'm sure there could be some tooling to go with it too if you were interested. I was going to put it on Trademe once I've had a chance to take some pics, just never got around to it.
Best regards,
Jason
Heh, heh - I ain't the sort to give up on anything promising! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Jason3
Really appreciate the offer...but sorry, no can do. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason3
I'm a 2nd year undergraduate student at UoA, only managed to scrape the money from the summer studentship I'm doing these holidays.
Don't really want anything bigger than necessary for making miniature plastic toy accessory molds - see www.brickarms.com for an example
(The guy, who incidentally is an associate, has a TAIG, but I don't have the luxury of importing one into NZ)
I also needed a retrofit plan that lots of are familiar with as well as within my budget and skill level (read: very low) - hence the CNC Fusion kits for the Sieg X2.
But still, thanks anyway. :)
Oh, Jason, since you're also from NZ, there's an issue I have which maybe only a local may know - www.machineryhouse.co.nz has the Hafco Metal Master HM-10 Mill Drill, which I suspect is the X2 in some form of disguise ;D
I got the specs from MachineryHouse and compared it to the Sieg ones - table dimensions and travels are slightly different (3~10mm). Also, I can't actually find a manufacturer website for Hafco - leads back to MachineryHouse's NZ and Oz websites.
Perhaps they're doing OEM's of Siegs? Or is it the other way around, but more people just happen to know about Siegs than Hafcos?
That HM-10 is almost certainly a Sieg X2, and Sieg is the manufacturer at the end of the food chain.
There are two things here you will want to consider, one of which is the precision of the machine, the other being the spindle capacity. An X2 with a good CNC conversion can deliver the precision you would want for something like this. The spindle is another matter. To make tiny molds like this I presume you'll be getting into sub-1mm cutters to render the details. Even with a belt drive kit the X2 is still too slow to use a cutter like this effectively. Some people have bolted Proxxon rotary tools onto the side of the X2 spindle for these purposes.
While the Taig and Sherline mills have 10k spindles, as you get down into the really tiny 0.25mm cutters, even 10k is slow. Bear in mind too that these little tools are not cheap and they break if you sneeze on them. These little molds are small but that does not mean they are easy to make.
It may sound crazy but I'd consider contacting Taig about becoming their dealer. I'd also look into Sherline, which, while tiny, is big enough for these small parts.
I have to agree with Stepper Monkey on this one. The X2 is really not the tool for fine engraving unless you want to spend a lot of time on it. You will also be needing a high speed spindle mounted on the side of the head to work with small cutters, and seeing tiny bits for lego tells me that you will need those.
I have an X2 myself, and I have spent a lot of time on it, and I'm sure it could do the job you want to do, but then again I have spent a lot of time on it. On the other hand I can also do some pretty heavy milling too, so it works for both things. It just takes time to get there. I have a Proxxon high speed spinlde that goes as high as 20k, and I bought a collet set with it. Can't measure the runout on it.
Th HM-10 you linked to is indeed an X2.
How expensive is surface shipping to NZ? Take a lot longer than normal post, but once upon a time I used to ship things like used motorcycle engines and car transmissions around economically across the Atlantic, so I figure two 50-60 lb packages of mill parts can't be that bad. There has to be a way to get something done as commercial freight. This may involve picking it up at the docks, messing with customs, or getting to Auckland airport to pick it up. All hassles, but if you can do one of those things it can be done cheaply.
if you want to make little detailed molds in metal like the BrickArms guy, the ones you have mentioned so far are not going to do you so well. I am just thinking that shipping costs shouldn't be the main cause for choosing the right mill, there have to be other ways around that problem.
I've shipped parts to Australia using USPS several times.
The cheapest way I've found is to use Priority Mail International as long as you don't exceed the 20Lb limit.
If you could get someone to step up and disassemble and repackage the taig
into 20Lb boxes (for a small fee?) it could be doable.
Just order and ship it to someone you trust (the 2019ER $894 + $55-90S&H)
and they just have to repack it and fill out Customs Declaration and Dispatch Note CP72.
Checked out several shipping options as seen below including UPS freight for single package and i can see what you mean, wow.
I hope you don't mind me adding my 2p's worth to the pot:
Avoid the X-1 like the plague! It's wibbly, wobbly and the gearbox self destructs with minimal provocation!
I had the CNC fusion kit on my X-1 - it is very well made, but I had very tedious backlash on my X-1 that I could never get rid of.
The Z-axis on the X-1 is also problematic - I could never get the gibs quite right - it would either bind or wobble. A counter weight helps, but it's really a bandaid on a broken bone!
As for EMC2, I like it a lot, but you really need to make sure your PC can handle the real-time requirements before you get too far in. All my cheap Linux PC's have integrated GFX which messes up the IRQ timing and so upsets EMC. IMHO it is more fussy about H/W than Mach 3 which I've also used.
Good Luck!
Hi GreenLead,
My apologies, I forgot you were wanting to do the tiny lego moulds :)
I think Sansbury is almost certainly right, the Machinery House machine will be a Seig, or if not, one of a bunch of copies made by other Chinese manufacturers. My GL45 is virtually a decent quality RF45 with a few nice extra features. If you are considering going with one of them, I'd be sure to go in and kick the tyres
I too think it would be worth talking to the Taig guy, tell him your shipping cost dilemma, and ask him if he would break down and ship the mill in a couple of shipments directly. I think there would be a few heavy parts that are too big for even the large flat rate box, though I stand to be corrected there. Shipping is expensive for sure - I just paid US$280 to get a couple of ball screws shipped today. It's a fact of life, as is the exchange rate that's not doing you any favors right now either.
The Brickarms chap's Taig - how is it configured, ball screws, high speed spindle etc?
Regards,
Jason