machines to build guns?

First off, I am aware of the laws involved, and I really don't want to go down that road or discuss the morality of firearms. I want to stick with the tool side of things here.
I've got some idea for rifles and pistols I'd like to make, but have no machines or real machining experience.
My CNC experience is with sheet-metal (punch, plasma, laser), not flinging chips. I know the very basics of machining from college and am good at figuring out stuff, but I'll have to teach myself quite a bit on whatever I get.
I figure I'd need a lathe with at least a 24" range and maybe a pass-though head.
Mill requirements would be fairly minimal, I'd think. but I'm sure I'd end up doing other things down the road if I make this investment.
An all in one machine I'm thinking would let me do fluting easier and possibly even spiral fluting.

Anything wrong with my basic assumptions? Any idea how much money I should be looking to get together to get a working hobby machine shop?

Look at the MAC 10 - that was designed to built using simple machine tools.
I am sure that some Google searches will tell you more about this.

Thanks for the idea, but I am looking to build what can not be purchased. Its usually cheaper and easier to just buy what can be bought.
I figure I'll buy barrel blanks and stuff like springs, firing pins and trigger parts.

When I finally get around to building my shop, I plan to spend $50k or more. I will probably end up with a Haas mill and a Haas lathe and additional support machines.

It seems like long, deep, custom, precision work like that would either need a "gun drill" setup, or perhaps some kind of EDM that can reach down 30 - 60 inches. Otherwise, what could you offer that is not already off-the-shelf ?

The industry directions tend to be:
- Really small bore - around 1 - 2mm, ultra high speed
- Larger bore - 12 guage long, 10 guage, 25mm, 40 mm, 50 cal
- Related barrel porting work
- Various other methods of reducing recoil such as shock absorbing movement
- Direct machining of some of the accessories with the blank
- Composite stock integration
- Specialized finish related equipment
- Alignment fixtures
- Test area for checking results
- Non traditional actions and firing methods

Some of this depends if your goal is to be a traditionalist with a lot of hand work or more modernistic / futuristic oriented.

Maybe one of those magnetic guns they use to shoot 2 x 4's thru concrete walls. That'd be fun.LOL

Serious gunsmithing requires good machinery and a lot of skill. The skill part comes with a lot of VARIED experience. Doing the same thing over and over and over is not experience, it's repetition.

Dick Z

I've been in the firearms industry for a long, long time now and started the company I am with long ago. Currently we CNC parts and accessories, along with sewn softgoods. We are a class 7 FFL (firearms manufacturer).

Sounds like you want to buy barrel blanks, chamber and assemble rifles. (BTW, guns are on ships :o)

For this line of work, the best thing you could do is apprentice with someone immediately. Find a gunsmith to mentor you, one that specifically does long range rifles, and see if you can get hired on to learn. Plan on a year or two minimum. Sounds like you have the basics, but will need to learn lathe work, chambering and assembly, and there are some things to pay attention to. Toss in some basic manual mill work too.

It is a tough direction to go in today's market. We're currently riding a bubble which is great but the overall trend is "firearms are not politically correct" and sales will ultimately get tight again. This is a market dominated by very talented niche manufacturers and machinists with the same passion you have. It is competitive and you'll have serious work to do to understand the market and pick up on opportunities.

I'm sure you have priced bbl blanks, stocks, bottom metal, triggers, etc. to find your assembled pricing, and have realized there isn't much $$ in it. Add in the problem that bbls are about 6 months to a year out, stocks almost the same, and if you're after any major AR parts about 2 years out as of now. So you have time but the bubble may be shrinking by then.

Honestly, I'd find something with a wider consumer base as it will be more financially rewarding. This industry is competitive, full, and shrinking. It is easier to grow in a sector that is growing as your slice of the pie gets bigger by default. To grow in a shrinking sector means taking business away from someone else. Hope that makes sense.

That's my two cents on it!

Hope to see you at the SHOT show someday. :)

The best equipment to build firearms lies between your ears!! Building firearms is more of an art when speaking of long range, accuracy and dependability.
I've been building (hobby) for years and started with hand tools. I now have a complete machine shop with CNC in my back yard just waiting for me to retire from the working world. Someday!
This is one of two current projects in their infancy.
Good luck and get the education you need and purseu your passion!
Bill
:)

Bill are you French? Purseu?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bill south

The best equipment to build firearms lies between your ears!! Building firearms is more of an art when speaking of long range, accuracy and dependability.

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+1000 Perhaps it could be called "machinist's art." :D :D

I've recently looked into something similar and after talking with many gunsmiths and those that went to the 2 year college course gunsmithing degrees. They all told me unless it was something I was just dying to do I would be better off financially to keep my day job. One smith I know has a good year to year and a half wait for his work and he told me he makes less owning his own shop than he did as a shop floor machinist. So much to know, so much equipment and tooling to buy and so much competition from well known established name smiths it can be hard to get into the game and actually survive.

I still have the desire to build custom rifles and may see about doing it as a hobby while acquiring equipment and doing work for others now and then to get my name out there once I am proficient. But I will keep it limited in what I do to keep things easy on me and make sure I do the best work I can at a few things while keeping overhead down as much as possible.

I'm not sure what kind of education you have regarding metal and processes as you mentioned no real machining experience. One thing you should really consider is if you are knowledgable enough to select the right metals for the job at hand or understand the need to harden some steel in certain areas on certain parts etc. There is a lot to know just in assembling a rifle from parts and just doing the basic assembly, chambering, bedding etc. Once you get into making entire guns from scratch that is a whole new set of knowledge to have at hand.

Oh and a 3 in 1 would not be a good idea IMO.


Bo

I send all newbe machinist here. this is a detailed illustration of what is needed to do machine work even thought this guy has small Chinese machines it gives a detailed account of what it takes to machine metal.
Micro-Machine-Shop.com

Happy Hunting
archie =) =) =)

I would keep your day job. Then use the firearms smiting as a hobby that makes you money. Because it's great for a hobby a to earn you a side income. Build your shop over time and enhance your skills by working with others.

My question to you would be this- are you wanting to do this a production type work or as a hobby? Look back at some of the firearm designs that are still with us, they were designed without computers or CAD and they were machined with skilled hands and manual machines. The 1911 handgun, Thompson Sub Machine Gun, the Luger,
M2HB .50 Cal, ect.

Sometimes we need to look at the software (the human brain) and not the hardware. I have an old "round ram" Bridgeport and a 12" Atlas lathe and I can do a lot of gun work with them. It takes some time, but when your dealing firearms, haste makes waste.

I was talking hobby (no FFL), and minimum machine capacities and accuracies. Something that could take CNC controls down the line somewhat easily might be nice, but I am certainly not in an economic situation to write a check for a full CNC shop.

You can use a Haas VF2 with a rotary to make AR lowers in a production environment. That is what I used to get started and it is making billet .308 lowers to this day. I used a wire EDM at first then got a broach for the mag wells. For real production I got two 400 horizontal mills (Toyoda and a Doosan). 15K spindles with high volume machining software to write the tool paths pays for it fast. Through spindle coolant is a must since their are so many holes in the receivers. I drill everything at over 40-70 ipm and much faster with the chip blaster 1000 psi coolant system. Holes that took over a minute each are done in under one second now. I am up to 11 machine centers running 24/6 and still cant keep up.

I think it pending on how many you want to produce.. with a lathe 40 inch between centers and a simple kneemill you could build of scratch ""gun""\

if you plan to making for sale then it has the price to you.. slightly differ from punching sheetmetal..


I didn't see the second page of this topic, thinwater says everything.. its a very costly setup to producing affordale..

little addition could be, the amd barrel was wrought, drilled after drilling they ""straightened up"" broached, made outside to dimensions and barrel were chromed inside..

it is long to listing however all process was very quick due setups..

one more thing... folsk in that time didn't used ""inserts"" because that was not exist.. ground by hand cutters, endmills, drills..

generally a beginner need year or so get practiced to grinding tool.. today it might not an issue, however with these methods in factories by technologies the process was very close todays cnc..