List of CAD Software Companies that are NOT subscription/cloud-only (or have plans)

Scanning around the net, I was unable to find a list of intermediate to higher level CAD software suppliers that DO NOT sell their products by subscription only. I am curious if anyone has a start on this list yet.

I just can't risk having someone else lock up my tech data if they: get lazy/get sloppy/get indifferent/go under or heavens-sakes the infinitesimally small chance they would ever get greedy. Not to mention carrier network problems, weather or broad region problems like earthquakes/hurricanes/unrest etc.

Just because someone else is having technical problems is not a reason for me to shut down activities that others depend on.

I recently asked one machining software company if they had a premium version that didn't need to connect to the Internet to perform its calculations. (I was willing to pay extra.) His immediate, condescending answer was "Well then XXXXXXXXXX software just isn't for you, now isn't it?" Hmmm, I'm glad he outed his true level of concern for his customers' prior to my Benjies flying out of my wallet ... usually I learn those lessons after Elvis has left the building.

(You know the difference between a used car salesman and a software salesman? A used car salesman KNOWS when he is lying to you. Sorry, couldn't help myself.)

All suggestions / details / comments welcome!

Best regards,

Bruce

It really depends on your needs and business, for myself, I have to use the software that my customers require. I'm not a big fan of Windows,
but sometimes there is no alternative. If you produce parts, and the customer is not involved in the design or drawings, and models, you
have more choices of software. Some software companies use a Dongle, this wasn't mentioned in your post, but the Dongle requirement
isn't the greatest idea either.
Larry

Sounds like your customers could end up getting you into multiple subscription situations if I understood you correctly. I guess it's all good if they are paying for you to support that for them. Haven't seen that before. Hmmm.

My "I will put up with Windows" attitude is about fully drained away. That is in my alternative equation as well.

Learning/doing CAD/CAM can be challenging, but having your margins squeezed relentlessly by customers, suppliers and now software companies adds a new dimension to working metal. With the six hands of Gates/Buffet/Bezos having as much money as the lower half of all US citizens, you have to wonder just where we need to go again to have a little prosperity again for the guys actually making stuff.

Gotta chime in here.......
This is a peeve of mine also, the "Upgrade / Maintenance" scam and now subscription !
At the shop level you need to have software to stand alone without the internet,
All i want is 120V 60Hz and no internet to the machine of computer.
another peeve.....
Why cant i buy an older proven version which has what does the job?
Just make gcode and parts and not crash the system, be reliable and stable.

The software engineers need jobs, salesmen too,
but i don't NEED the latest version and iges is backwardly compatible, and Gcode is a world standard.
it seems the nature of sofware is continual eveolution. a new GUI for the same old math.

These CAD CAM software developers seem to be re-inventing the wheel. ( daily of not monthly )

Starting with this,
APT360 Programmers Manual
I have watched this biz evolve into a mess of confusion of
"my stuff is better then your stuff" to get the same end results of Gcode for parts .

Gotta go now and work on my parts with a stone-age tool..
a vixen file and hand labor....
From hi-tech to no-tech to skilled hand work finishing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bostosh

...
Why cant i buy an older proven version which has what does the job?
Just make gcode and parts and not crash the system, be reliable and stable.

---

For most of my work, cnc plasma cutting, cnc milling ,drilling,
and tapping I use AutoCAD LT 98, and Sheetcam, and Mach3. I have newer
versions of AutoCAD, but prefer LT98, plain and simple,
no authorization or other bull****, and I think LT98 was the
only release without needing a Service Pack.
Larry

Bostosh,

Very nice product work there! You clearly have put in some time to get this point. Kudos!

I am exactly with you. It seems that 75% of CADCAM producers aim to tap and drain the large manufacturing orgs whose soft costs for engineering would never amount to anything near a fractional tenth of a percent of revenue or profits ... and the acceptance of a subscription method amounts to an inconsequential change.

I am guessing that 20% are of the small shop/prosumer/guild-like user that is not focused on quarterly profits moving their public equity on the NASDAQ and do not need to cover the fixed overhead of a giant support layer necessitated by the 75% trying to implement features that truly assist the org's large span of workers/complexity. (The last 5% being the free-software experimenter/hobbyist that is most likely not selling product or attempting to turn a profit.)

From my basic study of what is out there, Autodesk exemplifies the first and McNeel the second. The breadth of the McNeel's target market IE, visual modeling, jewelry, boat hulls, sculpture, architecture, education, etc and base of customer type are amazingly broad where Autodesk focuses on the 20% of the market with 80% of the manufacturing cash flow. The McNeel approach fits me to a "T", but the beauty and advantages of the NURBS system preclude the benefits of parametric CAD ... particularly history so minor changes can be made without major efforts or even starting over from scratch. (Maybe I am missing something here about editing NURBS solids (and I would love being shown my deficiency), but for as much searching as I have done, I am not finding my holy grail.)

I guess the order of priorities for the 80% of us that fall into the 20% of the CADCAM revenue dregs, is something like:

1. Identify the universe of CAD/CAM suppliers whose business/marketing policy people realize that we the flexibility to control the time period which our fixed costs are amortized over and can sell enough copies to make it worthwhile.

2. Analyze within that population what functionality each product set can offer.

3. Trade off the price to performance of each in light of the specific activity that the entity is tasked with making.

Frankly, the idea of a stable, non-crashing software product that allows you to comfortably model non-space-shuttle projects and generate G-code over even a short period like 12-24 months doesn't seem like such a hard policy to grasp or implement. Financially, I have to give Larry Metalfixer top kudos for stretching his AutoCAD LT98 well into the Twenty-first Century. That has to be a record. Autodesk clearly is positioning to get Larry's future profits into their bottom line ... on an annual basis. I have no real problem with paying value for value, but when I have reasonable options cut out from under and I end up with all the negatives of he EULA documented limitations/risks and a locked in cash outflow stream ... well like an old biz cohort of mine said ... if it's a bad deal ... leave it on the table and walk to the nearest, next best option ... or just do nothing at all. A bad deal hurts you every . single . day .

Maybe there is an opportunity here to start an "Independent CADCAM Association" that could be a forum for operations/shops that use 1-5 seats max and focus on the needs of the community where software costs and risks are becoming too large to be ignored. It would be my guess that this problem has not peaked and will continue to grow worse. Frankly, I would love to 'subscribe' to an annual information service that could offer this information in depth in a manner that was free of conflicts of interest on the biz/marketing side.

Guess I am going to have to just start an Excel spreadsheet of vendors/capabilities and get cracking on the three steps to move my plan ahead.

Best regards,

Bruce

Well on my opinion ever since I started my carrier in the CNC world I never paid any software at all, just sketchup, you read it right, only sketchup, and some power plug-ins, now I can program a 3, 4, 5 axis like a breeze with just using google sketchup, I did everything from unit modification, electrical installation, table preparation, jig assembly, Drive PC installation/set-up, all the way down to the product CAD/CAM programming, CNC and computer electronics are just basic stuff on my opinion compared to communication electronics. :)

Hi KH0UJ,

Very interesting comment on SketchUp! I never had taken the time to look at it and was unaware there were CAM plugs that Sketchup could be extended with.

What is the CAM plug in did you settle on for 4 & 5 axis work and how is the vendor's post processor support?

Thanks for responding!

Bruce
WD8KVQ

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bcavender

Hi KH0UJ,

Very interesting comment on SketchUp! I never had taken the time to look at it and was unaware there were CAM plugs that Sketchup could be extended with.

What is the CAM plug in did you settle on for 4 & 5 axis work and how is the vendor's post processor support?

Thanks for responding!

Bruce
WD8KVQ

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Hi WD8KVQ :) glad to see some fellow communication enthusiast here in CNCzone, actually there are tons of free plug-ins in sketchup, you just need to pick the right one that fits your wants/needs, on my side im making my CAM work or route path in sketchup itself, in a mass production scenario time is so precious enough that even the smartest autoCAM software cannot beat the time of a custom CAM work, I always wanted to control the spindle movement from start to finish and wanted my spindle to zero anywhere in the table depending on the product being cut or shaped, it`s a bit tedious at first but very efficient in terms of shaping things, park anywhere in the table where it`s safe then loop the job when a new material is being reloaded on the jig, honestly I modded my plug-in on sketchup just to sync or to be readable in MACH 3, if you want to learn how I did it you can add me in facebook [email protected], you dont need a technical support if you go on a custom CAM method, you can control the spindle just the way you want it :)

This is an exact same replica of a polymer AR-15 80% that are being sold in the market but on a T6 aircraft grade aluminum, all the route paths are custom done by me in sketchup environment, including the manual tool change, I used an 8mm and a 3mm 2 flute carbide bits on this product, 2 piece cam work, one for the 8mm and the other one for the 3mm, because there are surfaces that cannot be penetrated with the 8mm without erasing everything.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attach...d=380720&stc=1

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attach...d=380724&stc=1

This is our 1911 grip looping CNC machines, produces thousands of pairs every month all custom route path (7 minutes/piece) no other autoCAM software beats the 7 minute time span on a custom CAM.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attach...d=380722&stc=1

This is all done by a flimsy aluminum based chinese CNC router, how much more if I can get my hands on the high end rigid ones hehe

SpaceClaim

Lately, all I hear is how great and wondrous Fusion 360 is, but I find myself counting the days as to when that "Free" plug is pulled on the hobby user. Perhaps all those so hyped about it are too young to remember the tens or more of similar "Free" environments that preceded it.

I remember Ashlar did it, Surfcam did it.... gosh, there were so many more I can not think of. Seems all the big names did it along the line and they all came to be nothing more than a sales tactic to make sure some free users were forced into buying, just in order to recover all their drawings.

I'm too poor to buy all that expensive stuff and I'm smarter than "free". There is no free, and if you think your technical drawings are safe with a web application, then you go ahead and do it. The only good thing about "software as a service" has been money in the pockets of the sales teams who spent lots of money convincing people "how great it is".

These days, I tend to amaze myself with very inexpensive software. Autosketch being my all time cheap favorite for 2D as I find 2d to make up 98% of everything I need.

Cheap old ViaCad (which was pretty much the foundation of Ahslar products) can handle 3d drawings and interchanges formats with others very well.

Moi3d can model things for me every bit as good as the version of Rhino or Alibre I wasted money on. My most expensive CAM program turns out to be V-Carve, but I keep a handful of other cheap CAM programs on hand. They fit my needs.

Other than one program (Engravelab and its stupid dongle), none of what I use demands the internet, a dongle, or ridiculous licensing method.

Thanks for responding Louie!

What terms were you able to purchase SpaceClaim for and what was the price?
Tnx!
Bruce

Quote:

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Originally Posted by louieatienza

SpaceClaim

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Datac,

We are on the same wavelength between Risk a lot of money/data/future survivability and Smarter than Free. You nailed the student/artisan/retired engineer market that the industry has failed to address.

I have used Rhino for a good number of years with decent success, but in stepping it up, the prime hold back comes from its inability to edit even medium complexity models easily. I tested Mold&DieCAM (madCAM plugin) and found it very usable. The only drawback was simulation of cutting was not yet mature (though they showed me some great work towards getting there. The biggest issue is that the inevitable changes that come with prototyping usually require going back to the very beginning (or nearly so) to make any changes. But that is not a madCAM problem. madCAM is not cheap, but it is financially reachable in a value range and appears stable from a mgmt/marketing perspective ... unlike the freebie come-ons.

I am beginning to consider looking at breaking down my process in two. (1) a parametric package that can produce an exportable solid model that give the CAD flexibility and (2) import to Rhino/madCAM for 3/4 axis protowork.

It is hard as heck to find one package that does it all well WITH a low probability of screwing your money, learning curve and/or your content in the future.

These companies may not realize it, but their EULA/marketing demands destroy the end users' ability to optimize their costs into an acceptable range.

And leave profits and all future biz on the table because of it.

Bruce

SpaceClaim has a 1yr student edu license for $49, but lists a CAD seat for $4000.

Their videos are fabulously impressive for editing models, but $49 is essentially free like Fusion360. They are just honest about what the future cost is going to be.

I give them kudos for honesty.

I much rather know where I stand rather than be laughingly suckered like so many machinists ranting on CNCzone/PracticalMachinist/etc that were ripped out of their 'perpetual' license investments.

If some extraordinary opportunities should present themselves, I would be far more likely to go with Ansys SpaceClaim for that exact reason.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bcavender

It is hard as heck to find one package that does it all well WITH a low probability of screwing your money, learning curve and/or your content in the future.

---

Nailed it. Seems the most annoying and painful to the wallet was when the CAD side dragged miserably behind the awesome functionality other programs were offering... But there you sat... paying for the whole package and often can't easily move. Not when your stuck with a large number of drawings locked up in a proprietary Cad world, one where usually, the export ability matched the antiquated drawing techniques.

Since then, in my own little world, I've stuck as close to the common DWG world with all my drawings simply because you always have an option across a LOT of software that will be able to open it, and much of it is beyond affordable. Competent and affordable CAM programs seem to be everywhere that can import DXF, STL or IGES files. This really is thanks to the hobby market, where CNC Controls, Cad and Cam have really come a long way. No more combo programs for me.

The only thing that has annoyed me this last year is that some of the programs I did buy into and did serve a purpose for me no longer work with this new money grab called windows 10. Thanks a lot geeks ! (They can take their kiddie crayon monster icon crap and shove it up their backside - but I guess if kids today can not figure out an alphanumeric stack, you have to give them big buttons and pretty pictures)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by datac

Nailed it. Seems the most annoying and painful to the wallet was when the CAD side dragged miserably behind the awesome functionality other programs were offering... But there you sat... paying for the whole package and often can't easily move. Not when your stuck with a large number of drawings locked up in a proprietary Cad world, one where usually, the export ability matched the antiquated drawing techniques.

Since then, in my own little world, I've stuck as close to the common DWG world with all my drawings simply because you always have an option across a LOT of software that will be able to open it, and much of it is beyond affordable. Competent and affordable CAM programs seem to be everywhere that can import DXF, STL or IGES files. This really is thanks to the hobby market, where CNC Controls, Cad and Cam have really come a long way. No more combo programs for me.

The only thing that has annoyed me this last year is that some of the programs I did buy into and did serve a purpose for me no longer work with this new money grab called windows 10. Thanks a lot geeks ! (They can take their kiddie crayon monster icon crap and shove it up their backside - but I guess if kids today can not figure out an alphanumeric stack, you have to give them big buttons and pretty pictures)

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*****************************
Yep, I am holding at Win7 so far. Office2010 is the last MS non-subscription suite. I bought an copy off Ebay last month strangely enough ... and it runs fine. No $100 annual sub there from me. Probably will extend me easily another 5 years ... by which I will comfortably have time to migrate to another.

A number of folks I know have come together to discuss hardware extension strategies and off-network Win7 implementations for their apps that will not run in a WINE enviro or natively in UBUNTU/MINT/other. None of them would have the least difficulty paying for an OS that wouldn't shear their info like they were sheep. It just comes down to a protest against the PayItNowF**kYouNow&Later attitude of the programming world. It is of their own making. So be it. The harder they squeeze, the more will slip through their fingers. Be nice it it supported a LinuxOS.

Now I just need a decent parametric CAD package with decent exports, trustworthy mgmt and a reasonable base price point/affordable annual upgrade costs that don't eat me alive when I decide to take off a month or two to act retired.

How about CorelCAD.

It's an Autocad clone, but it's getting pretty good for 3D stuff lately. I've been using it to design night vision equipment for about 8 years so far. The 2014 version is pretty cheap and there's a student version. It requires initial activation, but you can activate offline if not connected, and then request an offline activation key, which once provided, will work forever for that particular version. 2017 works OK too but is slow changing between views if you do that a lot, but has better solid rendering than 2014.

New versions are all put up as trials, and the price only covers that year's release ( including one bug-fix update mid year ). The 2018 version is pretty good, but has a bug related to the center of solids, so would be better to look at after they fix it up.

Anyway, there's two other versions of the same software - One by Solidworks called Draftsight ( used to be free, but now costs money ) and one by Graebert ( Ares Commander ) which is the base version since they make it.

No subscription, no cloud support, works under Windows 10/7 and Linux and Mac.

And it's relatively inexpensive... Especially the older ones on Amazon, from time to time.

David.

Well, as far as I know, ZW3D is not a subscription.. :)

At year end Draftsight will no longer be free. Too bad because I enjoy it as it replaced my old AutoCAD.

I like OneCNC. No subscription, good drawing ability, and good cam side. The very best support from Patrick at OneCNC West, just runs, no problems.

Autosketch being my all time cheap favorite for 2D as I find 2d to make up 98% of everything I need.
Yep.
Since AutoSketch is all I have, and I do both design and make 3D objects (for fun and for profit), I would change the '98%' to 100%.
CAD to g-code - I program it myself. Where others have megabyte files, I tend to have a few kilobytes - for similar complexity. Unbeknownst to the creators of CAM programs, g-code has enormous power if properly used. But using that power seems to require human intelligence.

Cheers

Cheers! to your intelligence......... (rolling eyes)

and now.....Do you have an actual CNC-related problem you need help with? technique to share? new software to tell us about? FILES to share?

Hey Greg
I did not know about OneCNC. I did a quick search and NICE!! I quickly subscribed and will try.
Thanks for Sharing!!
(y)

We use feature cam at our company. You have to pay for the updates but we don't bother. Good system if you run fanuc based machines as posts are available.

Have a look here

https://www.mmturnedparts.co.uk/cadcam/
https://www.autodesk.com/products/featurecam/features

BR

Tim

AutoCAD
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