I guess after nine years of running CNCs I am allowed to have a serious crash, but I will try to avoid repeating it.
Stopping a chuck spinning at 1000rpm by sticking a tool holder into the jaws tends to modify the toolchanger on a TL2.
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I guess after nine years of running CNCs I am allowed to have a serious crash, but I will try to avoid repeating it.
Stopping a chuck spinning at 1000rpm by sticking a tool holder into the jaws tends to modify the toolchanger on a TL2.
ouch...
and my old shop teacher used to tell me he'd smack me in the nuts with a rubber hammer if I accidentally left the chuck key in...
So far I've been lucky, but he 'advised' me of the consequencews back in, oh, around 1970??
at long as nobody got hurt,
that's the main thing...
I bet you felt the "thunk" through the floor. :)
That's why I'm chicken around lathes.
Hi Geof
Was this from programing or a machine malfuction this kind of crash makes cam software very inexpensive, That sure did a number. I guess Haas does no have soft limits that you
can set for each tool so the tool can not get to the chuck, Did I see in one of your posts
that you where from/or lived in NZ if so where in NZ we may have been doing the same thing there at the same time
It was an operator issue, coupled with the fact that I was doing a left hand thread.
For the left hand I was starting at a Z minus location near the chuck and threading away. All my clearances checked out; when doing this the way I enter the Z offset is bring the tool to its closest location to the chuck, enter that as the Z offset then move the offset out by the distance the tool is going to travel. Perfectly safe!!
But somehow I got the X value wrong so when the tool moved to the Z minus position the tip caught the part and the tool holder rotated in the turret. The back end of the holder kicked out just far enough to get caught by the jaws. That is why the turret is so mangled, the holder was sticking out about three inches like a pry bar.
To answer your NZ query I lived near Auckland, place called Muriwai Beach. Left in 1966.
Hi Geof
Now I can see how it all got so mangled with it being able to turn when the tool hit, I no Muriwai Beach very well but was not living in Auckland untill 1967 & was more on the east coast & lived at Mairangi Bay I have a daughter that lives in Kumeu which is close to Muriwai Beach. I will be going to NZ on the 26 of May
:eek: WOW! Uhhh...lemme' get my thoughts straight. WOW!:o
Nobody got hurt? Any other damage? That exact thing scares me too. Or the jaws being too far out of the chuck and hitting the cross-slide.
Are you going to replace the changer or go for something like the Dorian turret?
Man Geof... Why you've done that??? That's not funny to break down a machine, don't do that again okay? ;)
That is a good question.
The replacement turret is on its way by UPS Blue and will be here tomorrow; around $4500 including freight.
I have a spindle bearing vibration analysis booked for next week to see if it is different to the one taken a few months ago as a baseline when I got the machine.
I don't expect anything else to show damage mostly because the chuck slowed down 'gently' over about 1-1/2" of peripheral distance. Did you read my explanation above how the tool swung around and formed a long lever arm?
That right there is the reason I cannot stand mounting the 3 jaw on our SL-10. I only do it if I absolutely have to. I like out 16C collet chuck. It's round. Probably the worst I could do is bump into it. But at least it wouldn't have a much leverage as a jaw stuck out 8 or 10 inches from the spindle center.
Good luck Geof with the new turret. Just pray that it will be at least another 9 years before you crash one like that again!! ;)
I have had some good crashes and heard some others also. When no one gets hurt that is important. It makes me more careful setting up. When I am sure that when changing somrthing simple it is good then it can get me. I have been told I am slower setting up because I do not trust the program until proven. I am not a good programmer but wish to improve. I enjoy this site a lot and tell Geoff hang in there.
Years ago I had big turret lathes; Herbert #7's with 14" and 16" chucks. I stopped one of these once when a piece of parted off steel bar stock fell down between the chuck jaw and the saddle. What a bang; full stop within less than a degree of rotation from 1200 rpm. And nothing broke!!!
The replacement turret was shipped as promised UPS Blue, arrived at my Haas dealer as expected two days later...and was promptly forwarded by some super zealous, but misguided person, to the wrong customer!!!!!
Geof,
Do you know if the new style turret is available yet? If so is that the one you are getting? I heard it is suppose to be much faster and much more reliable but the last time I talked to Haas they were still working on it. My turret is starting to have problems again but I wont replace it until the new one is ready.
Mark Hockett
The last information I had on the new TL turret was about a year ago before I decided to buy the machine I have. The new turret, supposedly, was going to be available sometime late summer last year, and be much faster, but it was only going to be on the machines with the big display and usb port. I wanted a floppy drive so I went for the old style.
I was told that the new one would not be retrofittable in place of the old style because it is a true servo-driven turret. The old style is just a little gear motor.
What problems are you having? I have two TLs with turrets, and apart from it being inadequately constructed to survive being used as a spindle brake, so far have not had any problems.
Geof,
Mt turret is starting to alarm out on position 4 again. It is also having troubles locking into position. its binds and makes a loud poping noise when locking.
It is also just way too slow for production, I can use an Aloris and manually change tools faster. The problem with the Aloris is it is not very repeatable, my turret will hold a couple of tenths.
The gang tool system seems to be the best set-up for the TL-1, remove the X axis handwheel and apron, set the rapids up to SL-10 speeds and let her rip
Mark Hockett
I have not (touch wood) had any locking problems or position alarms on either of my TLs, but I do agree it is painfully slow. The TL2 changer is faster than the older TL1 but still slow for production. And a thought came into my head; maybe I can switch the drive motor from the one I destroyed into the changer on the TL1 to speed it up. Have to think about that.
Even with the handwheel removed I think SL10 rapids would be a bit scary, I sometimes find them scary on a SL10. :)
Geof,
You can't just remove the handwheels at those speeds, you must remove the whole apron or it will strip the rack gear teeth right off. I think the SL-10 is kind of slow compared to machines like the Daewoo or many others. My friend has a Daewoo sitting right next to an SL-10 and the Daewoo is much faster.
Mark Hockett
I did remove the apron; I think the servos would poop out trying to drive the rack that fast.
And I think a Daewoo would would double scary.
On production stuff to save time a sometimes program for very close tool changes, 0.2" clearance is just as good as 2" and on parts with many toolchanges the seconds do add up. But the first time I press the green button with the Rapids at 100% and Single Block turned off, after proving everything, I still get that tense feeling.
Yea Geof, think about doing that at 1430ipm.
when I first got my Daewoo, I was running a little brass job, put and take job, had the door open and pushed the go button. Man oh man is this thing fast thinks I...
Then I noticed the rapids were in 25%
My new Horizontal rapids (And cuts) at close to 2000ipm.
Mark
The service guy just left. 9 hours to realign the thing. It took a hit...
Bumped the wedges on the trucks. Put it all back together and it has less than a tenth across the turret, and the same in runout on the spindle.
The roundy holders are about a half thou in Y
I think that ought to work well....
I am learning a lot about how to fix an sL10 though....
[QUOTE=PBMW;455141]Yea Geof, think about doing that at 1430ipm...../QUOTE]
But worrying about the rapids is not really logical, it is that many, many pounds of spinning mass that is going to do the damage whether you rapid into it or feed into it.
But logic does not do away with the tight feeling in the gut sometimes.
Well I finally received my replacement turret; a two day delivery that took ten days.
And the box contains???? A full retrofit kit for a servo driven four position tool turret??? With instructions for the 'simple' installation involving new boards in the control cabinet, parameter changes, etc. My brain is too old for this, I will come back after getting hold of my local Haas rep to find out what gives.
I think it would have been a much more better idea to have not crashed the machine in the first place. :D
Why do I always think of the correct solution to my problems too late?
Geof,
I also ordered a new turret last week and was told they no longer support the old style turret and were sending me the new servo driven turret.
The only thing that sucks is I had this really nice coolant system designed that had nozzles that rotated with the turret and only the tool working had coolant, like an SL-10. Now I will have to design a new coolant system to work with the servo driven turret.
Mark Hockett
Geof,
Haas told me that this new turret is much faster and also much stronger where the tool mounts, my old turret had a .004" dip in the tool slot which made it very hard to use drill, reamers and taps.
They also told me that we need to be careful when turning small diameter, under .5", parts using the tail stock, the servo sticks out and can hit the tail stock. We just need to extend the tail stock quill out further. This does not bother me as I have never turned anything that small using the tail stock, I rarely use the tail stock anyway.
Mark Hockett
Fortunately I live in a flat area so there are no cliffs I can throw myself off. The new, upgraded, fancy dandy, TL turret driven by servo motor and much much faster, is installed, and doesn't work yet!!!! Somehow or other the Parameters that came with the install kit, or the software, or something doesn't work.
Haas I am not impressed, maybe you are the biggest North American manufacturer of CNC machines, but I do wish you could get things going the first time. Please. Pretty Please, Pretty Please With Sugar On It.
Geof,
My new turret is still sitting on the bench. I think I will wait until they have yours worked out before call Selway to install the software on mine. I have had enough problems with Selway, I really want them to have a fighting chance to get this job done right the first time so they have a chance to redeem themselves in my shop.
Mark Hockett
Wow. Sorry that happened.
Mark;
When you get it installed and running I think you will be happy; the indexing is so much faster.
But getting everything sorted out will probably lead to a lot of hair tearing.
It seems to depend on the machine serial number what software version needs to be loaded. Apparently mine needed something that was not a general release version (or something). Also it seems the list of Parameters that come with the retrofit kit may not be quite right in all instances. The technician doing mine had already done a couple and had spent days sorting out them, mine only took about two hours.
I am really going to try hard to avoid a repeat.:D
Geof,
I'm reminded of an old Hardinge ASM-5C my dad bought back in the late 60's...one of their first "automatics"
A combination of electric/hydraulic/pneumatic logic and power....a perfect recipe for disaster.
The turret would randomly index, usually during a stock feed...collet open, bar stock flying into a rotating turret....ouch.
Ok, so I got elected to fix it...over and over...
The Hardinge manual for turret removal (to replace the index pawl) starts on page 18 (page numbers approximate, we're running from memory)....
page 18 step 1. Follow steps 1 thru 4 on page 14
page 14 step 1. Follow steps 1 thru 4 on page 12
page 12 step 1. Follow steps 1 thru 4 on page 8
page 8 step 1. Follow steps 1 thru 4 on page 2.
Really. It really did that.
My dad finally called Hardinge after a factory guy had been out twice and couldn't fix it. Hardinge said sell it and buy a new one...which it already had been.
I ended up figuring out an electrical bypass to lock out indexing ...but by then we were so disgusted. We sold it in another 6 months.
Don't these companies understand that service is a critical part of the buying decision?
I think Haas has become complacent with their success and I think they take advantage of the fact that once you have laid out a big packet of money for a machine you are trapped. I am essentially trapped into Haas because I cannot suddenly run out and replace twenty machines with another make.
My local Haas dealer is really very good especially the service technician who does what is needed to get things going, and overall I am happy with Haas machines. (Touch wood) I have some machines that have done thousands of hours without needing any service.
I must be satisifed; machine number twenty is on a truck on its way here as I type and twenty one is in the quote stage.
I'm glad you're doing well enough to have to worry about more machines!!
Meanwhile, we submitted our proposal for the TL-2...but with the budget getting chopped,,or should I say minced, we're not holding our breath.
Took seriously your caveats, but still felt the machine would fit nicely into our niche.
We do have the money for and are going to get a new Bridgeport..looking forward to that! (it'll be my 4th new one...)
Hey Geof
Those minus signs come in handy sometimes..........LOL
At least you did not get your head knuckled.
I guess I did wallop it hard; it moved the headstock! Two thousandths on the diameter over 6 inches. Loosening three of the bolts and a few whacks with a plastic hammer brought it to slightly less than 0.0004" over 6 inches and I left it at that; I am getting too old and lazy to be a perfectionist.:)
Is it still sitting on the bench?
The servo driven one is definitely faster, but I am absolutely paranoid about pulling the same trick. I have gone so far as to change my programming style; habitually I programmed with production in mind where seconds count, so I nearly always started the spindle and then followed this with a rapid approach to the starting position. With Spindle No Wait turned on the machine moves the axes while the spindle comes up to speed. Now I am doing the move to the starting position before turning on the spindle; this way if I insist on banging the tool into the chuck at least the chuck is not spinning.:)
One minor inconvenience to the servo tool changer is that they disabled Auto Restart in the software. Now it is necessary to zero each axis individually using Zero Return and Single Axis.
But at least I am back at work making the world's longest bar feed; actually a tube feed 24 feet long.