Edgecam/Mastercam

I also posted this on another forum.
This is for those who have gone over to Edgecam from Mastercam or the other way round .
I use Mastercam X4 level1 at work, and the boss sent in people from Edgecam to give me a demo, I think just so he did not have to deal with them.
I was very impressed with the demo and they are happy to come back and work through a couple of our jobs, all good so far, but my question is as I do not have the solid package on MC .
Is with the solid package MC as good as Edgecam seems to be with its Strategy Manager function? This seems to have the (once set up) ability to reduce programing time a fair amount and I do not see anything like it with MC.
Forrey.

I've used both.

ECam Level 1 costs more than Mastercam and doesn't even have the capability to do basic indexing or rotary.

ECam does not include solid modeling. It is an add on package with a completely different interface than the Ecam interface. Mastercam will read in a solid model from most any source and you can machine it as a solid, without having to purchase the Solids package. You can do that now with your Mill Level 1. Mastercam solids add-on is less expensive than ECam's modelier.

Mastercams solid modelier is Associative to the geometry and runs in the same interface as the Mastercam Design/Toolpath. But ECams modelier is parametric but is a stand alone program with a different interface from the Design/Toolpath program.

You must buy a cad interface for each different Cad system you plan to import (i.e. Solidworks, Inventor, STEP, ProE, Catia). Only IGES and DXF are standard. Only Catia and Proe are an extra cost in Mastercam. All others are standard.

Maintenance costs more for ECam, on a product that already costs more. So you'll probably be paying about twice what your paying now.

3rd party information on using ECam is hard to find. The books that come with the software are not as clear as you might like them to be.

Strategy Manager is the coolest thing in the world. Your dealer may give you some pre-defined Strategies with your purchase, or he may want to charge you for them. Your initial purchase of Strategy Manager does not include any useful Strategies. There is some documentation, but to develop and learn it yourself will take a little time. When you have them properly defined for your exact requirements, They are very cool.

Are you using the FBM toolpaths in your Mastercam? There's no reason why you cant be reading in a Solid Model now and Quickly creating automated toolpaths with it.

I'm not hard to find if you have more questions.

Mike Mattera

Thanks Mike, this gives me a lot to chew on, and ask the sales reps, and get prices for solids from MC.
Forrey

The "comparative" information Mike provided is not entirely accurate. Mike has not been an Edgecam reseller for several years now, but he is correct that product implementation is extremely important. Mike is a Mastercam advocate. I'm an Edgecam advocate, so I have a slightly different view. (You're probably not surprised! :) )

Quite frankly, both Mastercam & Edgecam can create toolpath for your milling machines, and both can build toolpath from solid models. If you purchase software without considering the necessary training, post processors, and other factors critical to success, it's a safe bet that you won't get the results you wanted. You can try to buy the cheapest product you can find, and you usually get what you pay for. One thing you might want to consider is what you get with maintenance from the 2 products. Disclaimer - my personal opinion here :) - Edgecam's is not the cheapest maintenance cost out there, but there is a tremendous amount of new development that benefits many customers. You get what you paid for with Edgecam's Maintenance. http://www.edgecam.com/aboutus/history gives a highlight of the development work over the past few years. It's an interesting read!

Mastercam's method on working with solids has been to advocate handling part design and associativity (design changes) by having the MC user design the part in MC's solid CAD package. That works for some companies, typically those that don't want to get a full-function solid CAD package as a business tool. It's the classic CAD + CAM combined product. The question becomes, is it excellent product in both CAD & CAM? On the CAD side, we have to compare it to full-function solid modelling products such as Autodesk Inventor. Take a comparison of MC's solid CAD to Inventor or Pro/E, UG, SolidWorks etc and make up your own mind.

Edgecam's method on working with solids is very different. For the company that uses a full-function CAD system such as Autodesk Inventor, Pro/E, UG, etc., the Edgecam user can leverage existing solid CAD models (you don't have to build them in Edgecam), build toolpath, apply knowledge based machining using strategy manager, and handle design changes. It allows a work flow where the CAD and CAM system complement each other. Others try to mimick it by running the CAM inside the CAD, but it isn't the same. Edgecam's solids interoperability is truly unique, and you don't have to buy any CAD systems to put on the Edgecam workstation in order to make it work! Edgecam is clearly intended as a CAM system, not a CAD+CAM system.

There are functional design tools available in Edgecam, and there is even a solids modeling option. Few companies get all solid models all the time and need ability to also handle DXF/DWG/IGES and drawing geometry from paper prints. Edgecam can do all that and work with solids without an additional CAD system needed. The solid is directly loaded into Edgecam and the user can immediately get to work. Design changes aren't a problem, as you probably saw in the Edgecam demo, and this is one area where Edgecam is very different from MC. The updated solid is replaced in the Edgecam part and the features & toolpath are updated automatically to reflect the model changes. Strategy Manager makes the entire toolpath process much more efficient. This "knowledge based machining" option is all that it seems to be. Much work has been done to develop good, generally acceptable machining strategies, which is a big help - as Mike noted based on his experience from several years ago. These new strategies are included with the Edgecam 2010 R2 software.

To summarize my view on Edgecam, it is a very good CAM system. It is competitive with Mastercam in all areas of milling. Quite frankly, both can build mill toolpath. Simulation is a different story. Take a look at Edgecam's simulation versus Mastercam's and make up your own mind. So are post processors. Solids is another big difference. This is another area where both products can do it, but have very different approaches to it which will impact you every time you build toolpath for a solid model. You didn't mention lathe programming. Maybe that's not a concern to you right now. There are big differences in capability there too.

Regardless of which product you get, make sure to think about what you'll need after you open the box of software. I'd encourage you to take an objective look at both products and determine which one is the best tool for your company to invest in.

Joe

It's a tough choice between the two, they are both a great CAD/CAM I guess just like every other system out there alway have pro and cons. Micheal and J seem to give you their good point of view, I said go with what best for you.

The only thing I found MasterCAM got tuitorial book, but it doesn't mean I say it more powerful. Go with best for you.

Do you dislike mastercam or does it not do what you need it to?
Changing out a working Cam system for another system seems to me like you would be inviting problems :)

I don't know and don't use mastercam but it's a bigger product and edgecam is a pain to learn, in my experience your not supposed to learn edgecam through any other way than through resellers.
(good) Documentation is non existant and 3rd party documentation is scarce.

And you need to get new posts and then prove them against all machines and so on and so on.

Thanks Joe. I enjoyed your post. As with my post, I only wanted to present the comparison as factually as I could. I assume some things have changed in ECam. One thing I would have to ask you is... What is your experience with Mastercam? Of course you're an advocate for Edgecam, but that's not quite the same as a voicing a comparative opinion based on experience with both.

Your statement "Few companies get all solid models all the time and need ability to also handle DXF/DWG/IGES and drawing geometry from paper prints. Edgecam can do all that and work with solids without an additional CAD system needed." This is a little confusing because you do need specific links for importing Solid Models. Yes both systems handle DXF/DWG/IGES. Since Mastercam can read all of those plus all the different solid models standard, I dont really get your point. If you have ECam with the Inventor link, you cant read a Solidworks or Parasolid file. Period. That to me makes it a little less flexible. Mastercam not only reads the Paradolid file, It can also write out in Parasolid. But lets not forget STEP, SAT, STL, Spaceclaim, KeyCreator, Rhino and SolidEdge (to name a few other standard file imports). But Mastercam also has an excellent 2D/3D wire frame design and Surface Modeling standard.

To Forrey45: A comparison is in order if you're going to shop for CAM systems. Just because you currently own Mastercam, don't take your current knowledge of the product as the basis of comparison. I find that most people will use a specific set features and stick with them. Contact your Mastercam reseller and tell him your looking at Edgecam and invite him in to point out some of the new features that you may already have, but may not be using. 80% of the new features customers request, are for things that are already in the software, that they're not using. Don't be afraid to contact your Mastercam reseller for more information.

Certainly both packages can create a toolpath. But since you already own Mastercam, it seems that you've already made the biggest part of the investment. I (personally, after seeing and using both) cant see you gaining much with a switch. You may only need some more advanced training on what you have.

Let me know if you have any specific questions. Give me a call if you like.

Mike Mattera

Mike, this forum isn't a place to test wits. It's intended to help other users. The information in your post is the typical Mastercam reseller viewpoint, not an end user viewpoint. Your post, in an Edgecam forum, should be put into context. Mine is the viewpoint of an experienced Edgecam reseller, also not an end user viewpoint. Nothing in my posting was negative about Mastercam, or untrue, or stated from ignorance. Everything in my post about Edgecam is accurate and based on knowledge of how to help end users put the software to work.

Mastercam and Edgecam have very different workflows with solids machining. If I was in charge of the world, I would bundle the major solids loaders in with Edgecam. However, that's a very minor thing because users can get the modules needed. Does it really matter whether I have to purchase the moonroof for my Ford Fusion as a separate option or whether it is standard with the "SEL" package? If I can get the car with the options I want, I'm a happy guy. No user is barred from getting the solids they need with Edgecam. And once they get the solid, good things happen!

It sounds like we are in agreement that implementation is important. Quite frankly, it's more important than features & functions. (Functionality is very important, and again, both products can create milling toolpath - but there are big differences in capability that will be important considerations for different users.) The customer that sees the value in product training, installation, maintenance & support is able to get the most out of the investment in a CAM system. Similarly, customers that expect to "just install the software and I'll call you if I have a question" are not going to be happy customers with ANY of the CAM products in the marketplace.

Now that we've clarified our thoughts on these products, can we sit back and allow the end users to add their thoughts?

Mike,

I am not sure what your point of view on how you are trying to help this person. But it almost seems like your are Pro Mastercam and that is what you are trying to push here. I do recall reading in a similar posting you had mentioned on this forum that "Edgecam offers the best CAD to CAM integration".. you also went to say that "If you want to be competitive for future developments in the CAD world" then Edgecam was the better choice.

Here is the link to Mike previous comments on a similar topic..

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=25336

To Everyone reading,

Although this person may have invested a lot $$$ in mastercam there is no reason why he shouldnt be re-evaluating his system. It is not different to machines or tooling or even staff, at some point we alll have re-evaluate our tools and decide whether they still are efficient or adequate for the tough manufacturing sector we all work in.

CAM systems are always tough to change because we as users grow with them and learn to evolve with them. But reality is that as the market gets harder and more competitive we need learn how to put our feelings and emotional attachment of the CAM system aside and re-tool ourselves with the proper tools that will help us stay alive and competitive in todays market.

Bottom line, that is what is all about, I think it is a great idea that this person has taken the time to re-evalute his system and look to see what else is out there that will help him be more competitive.

There are many good things about mastercam but if we want to talk reality there are many things on the lists that mastercam has failed to implement in order to help them compete in todays market. Dont get me wrong it is a decent piece of software but if you want to automate and spend less time programming and more time cutting you will need to look somewhere else.

I speak from experience I used, taught and implemented Mastercam for many years, since version 7 and the last version I used used was X3. Just to throw in some questions for mastercam users, Where is the automation capabilities? Where is the proper Mill/Turn capabilities? Why does programming in Level 1 seem like the same technology as programming with version 9? The list of questions can go on but I am not here to say mastercam is a bad system all I ask is that we help stear this person in the right direction by giving him the right questions to ask the CAM resellers he is evaluating.

Forrey45,

My suggestion to you is that you give the CAM reseller that you are evaluating a fair chance and see if they can really offer you technology that will help you be more efficient and competitive in todays market. To re-invest in a new system is not a bad thing as long as you get the right tools that offer your a fast 'Return on Investment'. Again no different to expensive piece of equipement or tooling or even people.

Any questions please ask I have used both system and know them really well!

Just my two cents

Cheers!

The Original Poster (OP) asked for a comparison. I gave a comparison on some key points that any end user would be concerned about. These are End User concerns (i.e. objections that Mastercam users expressed when I showed them ECam). Perhaps we can go back to my first post and create a simple check list.

If you can answer No to these questions, then either you changed the product, or I'm making stuff up. I'm not knocking ECam. I'm making a comparison. Because, you'll notice, not all of the points shine Ecam in a bad light.

Does the Ecam Mill Level 1 comparable product (not their Entry product) cost more?
Yes No

(Both systems have solid modelers available as an option)
Is ECam's Solid Modeler a separate, Stand alone product, with a different interface than the Toolpath product?
Yes No

Is the Ecam Solid Modeler Parametric? (BTW: this is a good thing)
Yes No

If you need to read files from Solidworks and Inventor, you must buy a link for each and each one is an additional cost.
Yes No

Ecam maintenance costs more than Mastercam's maintenance (for reference MCam's is 10%).
Yes No

3rd party books on ECam are very hard to find.
Yes No

Strategy Manager is the coolest thing in the world. It does an excellent job of automating repetitive/family parts.
Yes No

Now lets go back to my 2006 posting about ECam....
"Edgecam offers the best Cad to Cam integration"
Since this was 4 years ago, I would change "best" to "very good".

Does Edgecam offer very good Cad to Cam integration?
Yes No

These are all things that any shopper should consider and any current Mastercam user will be interested to know. I also find it interesting that when I asked Joe regarding his experience with Mastercam... Suddenly some guy with Ecam and Mcam experience and just happens to make his first posting to this thread (by the way, welcome to the forum Gretch_Man).

Gretch_man said: "I am not here to say mastercam is a bad system all". And I never said anything bad about ECam. So I'm not sure why you're both on the defensive. The OP asked for information and I gave him some. I'm not making a sales pitch. I'm simply pointing out that there may be a lot of functionality in what he already has, that he may not be using.

BTW: Gretch_Man which reseller do you work for? Because I cant believe that you're just some random guy that happened to show up today to write about the merits of Ecam.

Mike Mattera

Thanks everyone for the input a lot to think about and thanks Mike for putting the thread in the MC section I should of done that.
I had tended to not think of software as another tool, to be reevaluated in the same way as the rest of the shop, but after the demo I had form EC it did make me think what else is out there. I will ask the EC people for a lot more prof of the ROI that was sent to me, and I will also be in contact with my MC vendor.
Forrey.

Hi.
Just a follow up on this, we decided not to go with the EC product in the end and the deciding factor was the amount wanted for the maintenance fee, as the job is getting done now with MC and they only charge 10% ( and that is paid with great moans each year) as opposed to 17% and only the possibility of reduced programing time, there was also the suspicion of a long learning curve.
Any way thanks for all the input.
Forrey.

17% wow, they raised it again.

Mike Mattera

Who cares what software has the slight advantage. The owner of the machine shop that I work at is rich and we use Alphacam for machining metals! Alphacam is for woodworking! lol. Anyways i would go with mastercam. they are the most widely used and if you ever need to hire someone you know there will be no shortage of programmers for mastercam.

Pardon me while i spill my thoughts on this subject:

In respons to forrey45 post about the decision to keep mastercam over edgecam.

I find this somewhat interesting becuase our company has looked into converting from edgecam to mastercam in the recent past and decided to stay with edgecam for basically the exact same reasons you stayed with mastercam. It seems that the logistics of switching cam systems weights more heavily on the decision than the products themselves. Our company has switched once before quite some time back from smartcam to edgecam. I was not around during that time and not many people are left that can tell me much about how rough that was, but after about 10 years now, I am still having to deal with issues relating to jobs that were programmed in smartcam versus edgecam. We still have smartcam to allow us to view the jobs that were programmed long ago, which is such an old cam software that I just havent the time to learn and try to use this ancient technology. So again, logistics seem to the be the biggest swinger in decision making of these sorts. Nonethelss, I am looking into the comparison of edgecam again to other top cam products, mostly focusing on mastercam, delcam, surfcam, solidcam, and hypermill. I am discovering that the things I am more focused on when comparing the cam systems is the most fundemental part of a cam system; the toolpath generation. New techniques, strategies, approaches, and such are ever evolving as tool design and capabilities develop and I am wanting to take advantage of these things as they all help decrease the part cycle time, which in the end is the most important thing to be taking into consideration. It's not about how much it costs to get there (logistics in converting over, programming times, maintenence fees, etc.), but how much the new software will make me in the return due to cycle time reductions.