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Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
I ordered and received confirmation on a 2x4 Router Kit with accessories on 3/27/2019. My credit card was charged for the kit, accessories plus shipping. Multiple attempts to contact Nathan via email and voice mail for order status has failed. Absolutely no response from him. Does anyone know what’s going on. The business next to his facility says he’s only there in the evenings and weekends.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
jrpatter56
I ordered and received confirmation on a 2x4 Router Kit with accessories on 3/27/2019. My credit card was charged for the kit, accessories plus shipping. Multiple attempts to contact Nathan via email and voice mail for order status has failed. Absolutely no response from him. Does anyone know what’s going on. The business next to his facility says he’s only there in the evenings and weekends.
I was about to place an order but this is concerning.
Do you have an update on your machine?
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Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpitrating a Fraud!!
Agree with Dave - Nathan has a great product line but stretches himself pretty thin in what is a competitive market - have faith
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Did you get the machine?
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I have tried to support Nate and say good things about him. I have let people know that he might take a while but that he always does the right thing. BUT...I do not feel that way anymore. I feel like I spent a lot of time trying to troubleshoot a machine that has a frame flaw. Yes I have had the machine for a while but I don't use it professionally. So spending 2 hours a week in the garage is about all I get with a 60 hour a week job. Two kids, and a house and wife to take care of. Honestly I was prepared for some work with Nate to get the bugs worked out, but my machine has been a total disaster. I have loosened the rails as well as a bunch of other tweeks to try and get things parallel and working smoothly but the frame is just to wacked to get there. I have asked Nate to take the machine back and his reply was that I've had it too long. Even though he knows I haven't been able to put any real time on the machine between fixing the drives and trying to figure out the binding issues and more. What a huge waste of time and money.
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Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpitrating a Fraud!!
Thats sad, I wish there was an answer. When did you purchase the machine?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
wmgeorge
Thats sad, I wish there was an answer. When did you purchase the machine?
About 1 and 1/2 years ago. much of which has been going back and forth trying to get answers from Nate on how to get the machine running right
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Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpitrating a Fraud!!
Not good...sorry to hear about your hassles! Hopefully these posts will make him do the honorable thing...
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
ericks
Not good...sorry to hear about your hassles! Hopefully these posts will make him do the honorable thing...
One end of the table is about 3/16" to an 1/8" wider than the other. The tapped holes in the cross members are not in a grid or spaced evenly. Pretty sure the frame in not "flat" either. The main table rails are all loosened right now to see if I can find enough slop in the mounting holes to get the rails parallel...but seems like maybe only about 1/32" of wiggle room...at some point the only way I can see to get this right is pull the rails re-drill and tap new holes in between the old ones and re-mount the rails.
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Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpitrating a Fraud!!
What is the size of this machine?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
ericks
What is the size of this machine?
It is a 2x4' machine. Other thought was to use the existing threaded holes to mount 80/20 extrusion and then mount the rails to that. That would definitely give enough adjustment. Or maybe drag it behind my truck town the highway.
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Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpitrating a Fraud!!
Not good, i had a look at their website. They claim to have good quality machines. Later this year i plan to put control panels up for sale, my biggest concern is quality and customer satisfaction.....
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Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpitrating a Fraud!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Erik F
It is a 2x4' machine. Other thought was to use the existing threaded holes to mount 80/20 extrusion and then mount the rails to that. That would definitely give enough adjustment. Or maybe drag it behind my truck town the highway.
80/20 has wiggle room, but it may be iffy to get 3/16 - 1/8" adjustment from 80/20 mounted on each side (3/32 - 1/16" per side). I use a lot of 80/20, and am just completing a new build with it.
If you saw my build thread for a 4 x 4 Saturn 2, you saw that mine was defective in about every way. Fortunately, when if first opened the box, I saw the in washer between the gantry mounting and interface plates. I knew something was very wrong. That led me to check everything right away, and found out how bad things really were. Fortunately, I acted quickly enough and was able to send the machine back for a full refund.
Something else to consider. Will you have enough Z axis movement, if you raise the gantry height with the 80/20? I didn't get my Saturn 2 set up (I had it on end on a large dolly), so I didn't check Z axis travel. I looked at some possible fixes (I really like the idea of a welded frame), but abandoned the idea in favor of sending it back. Way too much wrong with the machine.
You should also check to make sure the two side rails are in the same plane. I'd be surprised if they are. If there is a twist, 80/20 won't help you with that. Also, look at the steel tubes for square. If they aren't square, it may be impossible to get the profile rail properly aligned. The very best repair solution would be to have steel plates welded to the frame and have the frame stress relieved. Then find someone to mill/grind the on plates flat and mill reference edges for the linear rails. Finally, get new mounting holes drilled and tapped. I didn't get so far as getting the work quoted, but it has to be expensive.
I feel for you Erik. It's terrible to drop all that money on a machine that isn't even close to what's advertised, or nowhere close to being fit for its intended purpose.
Gary
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Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpitrating a Fraud!!
Its a shame that it can't be fixed and used. I did present a fix I thought would work months ago but it got shuffled off to the side. The other fix that could work is all the racks, R&P drives the entire workings be transferred to a CNCRP frame kit of the same size. They are a great company to deal with and they would not be growing as large as they are if they been putting out junk machines that could not cut straight parts or work everyday. Anyway that would be one alternative. I can't figure out why my machine works so well.
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Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpitrating a Fraud!!
GME and WMGEORGE. Thanks for the kind words. Nate has not responded to any of my text messages for the last 3 months. Before this when trouble shooting it could be weeks before I could get an answer from him. So a lot of the time I have had the machine it has been waiting for responses from Nate or parts being sent to try and correct the problems. He did at one point offer to take the machine back and I stupidly decided to keep at trying to get the machine right. In some ways knowing that Nate has abandoned my issues is sort of a relief...it sounds strange maybe, but wondering if you are gonna be screwed is sometimes worse than knowing you are screwed. I am not a machinist, so I don't know the best way to find how far out of parallel, square and if the rails are leaning in one direction or the other because the frame is twisted. I don't feel like putting any more cash toward this machine other than a little bit to see if I can find a solution to getting the bed rails parallel. Once the machine is to good working order I think I will sell it off for cheap. I have half of what I need right now to purchase the CNCRP Desktop Pro. I think that is what I will end up with next...and honestly what I should have done the first time, but I got fooled with the steel welded table and extra size. The Saturn was more in my budget also, but more proof that cheap pays twice. As far as mounting 80/20, I would have to drill straight through holes to mount the 80/20 with the existing theaded holes for the rails, then using t-nuts mount the rails to the 80/20. As long as my through holes in the 80/20 are large enough I should be able to get the rails parallel. Then if there is any roll to the bed rails I can shim the 80/20 to get the rails parallel, vertically and horizontally....hopefully the bed is not SUCH a hunk of garbage that there is no twist to it. I can tell you that with the rails loosened the gantry slides MUCH smoother. I'm sure half of that made no sense at all, but hopefully enough to get my jist across. Thanks guys for you input in means a lot.
Erik
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Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpitrating a Fraud!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Erik F
GME and WMGEORGE. Thanks for the kind words. Nate has not responded to any of my text messages for the last 3 months. Before this when trouble shooting it could be weeks before I could get an answer from him. So a lot of the time I have had the machine it has been waiting for responses from Nate or parts being sent to try and correct the problems. He did at one point offer to take the machine back and I stupidly decided to keep at trying to get the machine right. In some ways knowing that Nate has abandoned my issues is sort of a relief...it sounds strange maybe, but wondering if you are gonna be screwed is sometimes worse than knowing you are screwed. I am not a machinist, so I don't know the best way to find how far out of parallel, square and if the rails are leaning in one direction or the other because the frame is twisted. I don't feel like putting any more cash toward this machine other than a little bit to see if I can find a solution to getting the bed rails parallel. Once the machine is to good working order I think I will sell it off for cheap. I have half of what I need right now to purchase the CNCRP Desktop Pro. I think that is what I will end up with next...and honestly what I should have done the first time, but I got fooled with the steel welded table and extra size. The Saturn was more in my budget also, but more proof that cheap pays twice. As far as mounting 80/20, I would have to drill straight through holes to mount the 80/20 with the existing theaded holes for the rails, then using t-nuts mount the rails to the 80/20. As long as my through holes in the 80/20 are large enough I should be able to get the rails parallel. Then if there is any roll to the bed rails I can shim the 80/20 to get the rails parallel, vertically and horizontally....hopefully the bed is not SUCH a hunk of garbage that there is no twist to it. I can tell you that with the rails loosened the gantry slides MUCH smoother. I'm sure half of that made no sense at all, but hopefully enough to get my jist across. Thanks guys for you input in means a lot.
Erik
Erik, I'm not a machinist either. Before I retired, I was a suit and tie professional. I have a benchtop mill, but I'm self taught in its use. I hardly ever use my drill press anymore. You don't have to be a pro to figure things out. In case you haven't seen it, here is a link to my thread on my Saturn 2 build that turned into a big CNC disappointment. https://www.cnczone.com/forums/finel...cnc-posts.html It shows most of what I did, and how I did it with liberal use of photos. You might find something useful there.
I don't know your experience with 80/20. I've used more than my share of it. In fact, after sending my Saturn back, I started another build of my own design out of 80/20. On this one, I'm using Hiwin profile linear rails. 25mm on Y and 20mm on X. I bought the CNCRP pro Z linear rail axis, rather than try to build one. Here's a link to that build, which is still open. https://www.cnczone.com/forums/diy-c...machinist.html Maybe you will find something useful there as well.
If you would like any help, feel free to ask.
Gary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
GME
Erik, I'm not a machinist either. Before I retired, I was a suit and tie professional. I have a benchtop mill, but I'm self taught in its use. I hardly ever use my drill press anymore. You don't have to be a pro to figure things out. In case you haven't seen it, here is a link to my thread on my Saturn 2 build that turned into a big CNC disappointment. https://www.cnczone.com/forums/finel...cnc-posts.html It shows most of what I did, and how I did it with liberal use of photos. You might find something useful there.
I don't know your experience with 80/20. I've used more than my share of it. In fact, after sending my Saturn back, I started another build of my own design out of 80/20. On this one, I'm using Hiwin profile linear rails. 25mm on Y and 20mm on X. I bought the CNCRP pro Z linear rail axis, rather than try to build one. Here's a link to that build, which is still open. https://www.cnczone.com/forums/diy-c...machinist.html Maybe you will find something useful there as well.
If you would like any help, feel free to ask.
Gary
Thank Gary,
I have owned two Shopbots a long time ago. We moved and I sold the one I had at the time. It took about 10 years before I had the space and resources to get another cnc. That is another reason why this has been such a disappointment. I have also done a fair amount of 3d printing in recent years. So thank goodness this wasn't my first cnc. Thank you for the offer of support. I will certainly check out you builds for fun and info.
Erik
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Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpitrating a Fraud!!
One option might be to scrap the frame, and build a new frame from 8020 extrusions. Then just transfer the components over. This would be easiest option, if you can get all the dimensions to work out.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
ger21
One option might be to scrap the frame, and build a new frame from 8020 extrusions. Then just transfer the components over. This would be easiest option, if you can get all the dimensions to work out.
I put a lot of thought in that direction. And on paper probably makes the most sense. However I just don't think I'm willing to put any more major $$$ at this machine. I have no idea how much wear and damage has been done to the components from just about everything being misaligned and all the issues with the drives I've had. My feeling is the pile of parts I have to work with are from Nate and no matter what that will never change. His care for quality is obviously very low. I doubt the components are any different. I feel the only thing that makes sense financially is to make this as good as it can be for the least amount possible. Right now in my mind it is worth zero dollars. If some labor and another 100 bucks can make it function with out it eating itself it's worth it but nothing else.
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Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpitrating a Fraud!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Erik F
I put a lot of thought in that direction. And on paper probably makes the most sense. However I just don't think I'm willing to put any more major $$$ at this machine. I have no idea how much wear and damage has been done to the components from just about everything being misaligned and all the issues with the drives I've had. My feeling is the pile of parts I have to work with are from Nate and no matter what that will never change. His care for quality is obviously very low. I doubt the components are any different. I feel the only thing that makes sense financially is to make this as good as it can be for the least amount possible. Right now in my mind it is worth zero dollars. If some labor and another 100 bucks can make it function with out it eating itself it's worth it but nothing else.
My suggestion from months ago.... add a piece of CR steel plate 2.5 inches wide .375 thick and as long as needed to the top rail and remount the linear rail on top of that. That plate can have slots cut in the top for mounting adjustment, ground true and shimmed as needed to make it level or on the same plane as the other. No it would not be perfect enough for some folks but it would work and the cost would be less than $300?
Or as I and Gerry suggested just build a new one using either 80/20 or CNCRP and transfer the controls and everything over.
He uses the same parts to built as CNCRP as far as I can see anyway from when I did mine.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
wmgeorge
My suggestion from months ago.... add a piece of CR steel plate 2.5 inches wide .375 thick and as long as needed to the top rail and remount the linear rail on top of that. That plate can have slots cut in the top for mounting adjustment, ground true and shimmed as needed to make it level or on the same plane as the other. No it would not be perfect enough for some folks but it would work and the cost would be less than $300?
Or as I and Gerry suggested just build a new one using either 80/20 or CNCRP and transfer the controls and everything over.
He uses the same parts to built as CNCRP as far as I can see anyway from when I did mine.
I think more or less we are basically doing the same thing?
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Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpitrating a Fraud!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Erik F
I think more or less we are basically doing the same thing?
Hey Erik do you have a welder or a friend with one? If so and the tube is off to much to square up with shiming the rails or something similar. You could always grind off the welds or cut the whole tube off get it squared up and reweld it. It would be basically free and just cost you your labor for a few hours of work. Just a option since I agree with you on not putting any more money into the machine it sucks but it's a option. Another way would be to remove the liniar rails fill the holes and tap new ones that are parallel once again just going to cost you some time and some welding supplies. If it's not on plane you can just shim the low side of the gantry where it attaches to the bearing blocks. It wouldn't be very difficult to do even though you shouldn't have to do anything if the machines were built properly from the beginning. Don't yard sale it yet the machines work really well once you get them dialed in, I still need to address some of the same things but I don't think mine is that out of spec. The main issue with mine is the flatness or lack of flatness where the liniar rails mount to the square tube same issue I think you're having. For me the short term fix was loosening up the bolts to the bearing blocks under the gantry. Fortunately I was able to get my steel gantry replaced with the old aluminum one he had, my gantry was way out of whack and swapping the components over to the extrusion made a big difference.
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Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpitrating a Fraud!!
Eric I posted my suggestion as I thought you wanted ideas, I did not know you were doing the same thing? Please let us know how it comes out. Where are you located, I might be interested in purchasing to rehab and sell locally. I have welders, dial indicators and grinders I know I can fix it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
wmgeorge
Eric I posted my suggestion as I thought you wanted ideas, I did not know you were doing the same thing? Please let us know how it comes out. Where are you located, I might be interested in purchasing to rehab and sell locally. I have welders, dial indicators and grinders I know I can fix it.
I am near Raleigh NC. I am looking for ideas and thank you for shooting them in my direction. When I have the rails loosened up from the table the gantry rolls pretty freely. It's when I tighten the rails back down the gantry has a bunch more rolling resistance.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ntl
Hey Erik do you have a welder or a friend with one? If so and the tube is off to much to square up with shiming the rails or something similar. You could always grind off the welds or cut the whole tube off get it squared up and reweld it. It would be basically free and just cost you your labor for a few hours of work. Just a option since I agree with you on not putting any more money into the machine it sucks but it's a option. Another way would be to remove the liniar rails fill the holes and tap new ones that are parallel once again just going to cost you some time and some welding supplies. If it's not on plane you can just shim the low side of the gantry where it attaches to the bearing blocks. It wouldn't be very difficult to do even though you shouldn't have to do anything if the machines were built properly from the beginning. Don't yard sale it yet the machines work really well once you get them dialed in, I still need to address some of the same things but I don't think mine is that out of spec. The main issue with mine is the flatness or lack of flatness where the liniar rails mount to the square tube same issue I think you're having. For me the short term fix was loosening up the bolts to the bearing blocks under the gantry. Fortunately I was able to get my steel gantry replaced with the old aluminum one he had, my gantry was way out of whack and swapping the components over to the extrusion made a big difference.
I am pretty mechanically minded but just don't know enough about linear motion to know what is acceptable. With the rails loosened from the table the action is much smoother and the gantry will actually roll a bit with pushed by hand. When the rails are tightened down, I can get things so there is no binding per say but the action is much less smooth and has fair bit more drag. This is probably what you mean when you are saying they frame is not flat? That the rails can be parallel when looking from the top down, but the rails when looking down them from the end are mounted such that they are not perpendicular to the gantry. I'm sorry for my terminology being very basic. How much of this extra drag will damage the bearings and or rails is I guess my question. Thanks again all.
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re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wmgeorge
My suggestion from months ago.... add a piece of CR steel plate 2.5 inches wide .375 thick and as long as needed to the top rail and remount the linear rail on top of that. That plate can have slots cut in the top for mounting adjustment, ground true and shimmed as needed to make it level or on the same plane as the other. No it would not be perfect enough for some folks but it would work and the cost would be less than $300?
Or as I and Gerry suggested just build a new one using either 80/20 or CNCRP and transfer the controls and everything over.
He uses the same parts to built as CNCRP as far as I can see anyway from when I did mine.
A CR Steel plate is not flat enough to mount linear Rails on with out being machined in place Rail mounting needs to be within .0005" in both planes to be of any use for Linear Rail mounting of this kind
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re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mactec54
A CR Steel plate is not flat enough to mount linear Rails on with out being machined in place Rail mounting needs to be within .0005" in both planes to be of any use for Linear Rail mounting of this kind
In your haste to "be right" you must of missed the " ground flat" in my reply.
Please show us the pictures of the machines your making, selling and exporting so we know how to do it right.
Oh and BTW my machine was not heated and stress relieved and it works fine.
ADDED: So Gary GME is building a new machine from 80/20 aluminum extrusions, as have been thousands of others done. I am sure they do not meet the .0005 in all planes criteria above. So are all these machines therefore junk? I am looking forward to see the machines your making, please post pictures. Thank you.
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re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
80/20 Spec's from their website.
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re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
Just because people mount linear rails to extrusions, doesn't mean it meets the standards of the rail manufacturers.
The Hiwin catalog I have specs a max parallelism tolerance of .01mm, and a height deviation between rails of .01-.02mm.
Extrusions most likely do not meet their specs.
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re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ger21
Just because people mount linear rails to extrusions, doesn't mean it meets the standards of the rail manufacturers.
The Hiwin catalog I have specs a max parallelism tolerance of .01mm, and a height deviation between rails of .01-.02mm.
Extrusions most likely do not meet their specs.
I think almost everyone understands that Gerry, thanks for clarifying.
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re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Erik F
I am pretty mechanically minded but just don't know enough about linear motion to know what is acceptable. With the rails loosened from the table the action is much smoother and the gantry will actually roll a bit with pushed by hand. When the rails are tightened down, I can get things so there is no binding per say but the action is much less smooth and has fair bit more drag. This is probably what you mean when you are saying they frame is not flat? That the rails can be parallel when looking from the top down, but the rails when looking down them from the end are mounted such that they are not perpendicular to the gantry. I'm sorry for my terminology being very basic. How much of this extra drag will damage the bearings and or rails is I guess my question. Thanks again all.
I would like to know the same as far as what type of damage will be caused by the mounting surfaces not being flat or parallel.
As far as your statement on your rails not being perpendicular to the gantry but parallel to each other, can you clarify?
I was under the impression that if you measured the rails from side to side on one side of the travel you got a measument of X and at the other end of the travel you got the measument of Y instead of having the same measument of X.
If you are getting the same measument in between the rails throughout the travel ie: rails are parallel and your gantry isn't perpendicular ie: square with the rails, then you need to loosen up the ganrty bolts and square up the gantry to the main drive motor side (master liniar rail).
You might have the same issue I had where the steel gantry tube was warped and had mounting holes that weren't tapped in the right places. Try getting the rails aligned properly to each other and then loosening up the gantry to get it as square as possible. You will probably have to shim the gantry bolts where they attach to the bearing blocks as well as the gussets that attach to the ganrty plate. I ultimately had to replace the steel gantry with a aluminum extrusion since it was so warped from the end caps being welded on as well as the holes not being tapped properly. All those things created a major preload on the bearing blocks when everything was tight.
Let me know if you need me to clarify anything I wrote it sounds like you are having the same issue I had, I just realized I had the issue right away because I was using very high rapid speeds 1000ipm per the machine specs. After making the changes that I mentioned I'm running 940ipm due to my high resolution and it's working great, I just need to shim out the liniar rails to get them flatter and it will be close to perfect.
For now I have a wave of sorts going on with the rails of 0.01-0.03 through out the travel with one rail being worse than the other. This is not good but I'm compasating for it by leaving the bearing blocks loose so they can essentially float and not reintroduce the preload.
I know it's not the right way of doing it but it's working for now and since the bolts are covered by the gantry they can't get any looser than I have them set to. Also it hasn't had any noticeable affect on any of the parts I've cut, everything is coming out to spec. I was worried that I might have a issue with cut depth variance but I haven't seen any yet and I believe it would show up when cutting through the material. It doesn't touch spoil board when I cut through material zeroing off the spoil board so I'm OK with it for now. I also was able to get the spoil board surfaced with only a 0.001-0.006 variation through out the surface. My plan is to either do what I mentioned before or try to get it flatter using shiming material.
Dan
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re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
I am going to try to upload the PDF manual for the rails and blocks Gerry mentioned. I do not see anything saying the "world will end" if the tolerance is not +/- .0005? Dan it sounds like you've got it working fine? Oops to big to Upload you can download here.
> https://www.hiwin.com/downloads.html#manuals
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re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
I have mounted linear rails to numerous surfaces. I have seen few cases where linear rails mounted to aluminum extrusions without machining them first works well. Same goes for most any "mill product". Aluminum or steel, they need to be machined. And it will say so in the linear rail mounting guide. If you read the specs for mounting linear rails and then look carefully at the extrusion mfgr's production specs, you can see that aluminum extrusions are not made to accept linear rails.
It's easy to tell.... Loosen the bearing block bolts, if it rolls easier, then you need to machine the surface, or shim under the rail.
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re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
So what your saying Gary if the Linear rail system is binding up your machine then it needs to be redone. That seems to be the issue with a number of the FLA machines. I got lucky on mine I guess.
We were in Michigan last summer, I visited my old SAC AFB Wurtsmith at Oscoda.
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re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
Bill...
I cant speak for others, but I wont mount rails on a non-machined surface. I know there are a lot of DIY kits, some OEM's and probably a ton of DIY guys that do that mount them direct to linear rails, what I'm saying is that I wont. And I will repeat... if loosening the block mount bolts makes it easier to remove, they are improperly installed (on a non true surface)
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re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
Gary I think 80/20 offers a machining option would that be an good option for a DIY builder?
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re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
Bill...
Yes it would, but few if any would pay for it. Besides, you still end up with an extrusion. For the most part they are used because they are 1) Low cost, 2) lightweight and 3) easy to bolt to. Extrusion machines are no where near as rigid as most branded machines, even the Chinese.
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re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
islaww
I have mounted linear rails to numerous surfaces. I have seen few cases where linear rails mounted to aluminum extrusions without machining them first works well. Same goes for most any "mill product". Aluminum or steel, they need to be machined. And it will say so in the linear rail mounting guide. If you read the specs for mounting linear rails and then look carefully at the extrusion mfgr's production specs, you can see that aluminum extrusions are not made to accept linear rails.
It's easy to tell.... Loosen the bearing block bolts, if it rolls easier, then you need to machine the surface, or shim under the rail.
I guess I got lucky, although I took an extraordinary amount of care in prep and assembly. I know it's highly unlikely that my Hiwin assemblies meet the published specs, but I can say that everything moves the same, whether individually, loose or tight. I know, because I checked it as part of my assembly setup checklist. Movement was the same in all circumstances. Stiff, but consistently smooth. Perfect? Probably not. Close enough that I cannot detect any difference? Yes. I attribute some of my success to my design and the care I took milling the extrusions for square ends and for length. I would have milled rail mounting surfaces, but my mill isn't even close to large enough for that. Also, there is no practical way to take a bolt together machine to an industrial mill. Too many opportunities going and coming to knock the frame out of alignment. Too much to go wrong. Welded steel is a completely different matter.
Morale of the story: If you can afford it and are willing to part with the money, buy a welded, stress relieved and milled CNC. I can afford it, but am not willing to part with the money at this point in my retirement. So, I either accept the compromises inherent in my decisions, or I forego a CNC altogether. I chose the former, which is apparently a choice you would never make. Good for you for being able to stick to your principles. I wish we were all so lucky.
Gary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ntl
I would like to know the same as far as what type of damage will be caused by the mounting surfaces not being flat or parallel.
As far as your statement on your rails not being perpendicular to the gantry but parallel to each other, can you clarify?
I was under the impression that if you measured the rails from side to side on one side of the travel you got a measument of X and at the other end of the travel you got the measument of Y instead of having the same measument of X.
If you are getting the same measument in between the rails throughout the travel ie: rails are parallel and your gantry isn't perpendicular ie: square with the rails, then you need to loosen up the ganrty bolts and square up the gantry to the main drive motor side (master liniar rail).
You might have the same issue I had where the steel gantry tube was warped and had mounting holes that weren't tapped in the right places. Try getting the rails aligned properly to each other and then loosening up the gantry to get it as square as possible. You will probably have to shim the gantry bolts where they attach to the bearing blocks as well as the gussets that attach to the ganrty plate. I ultimately had to replace the steel gantry with a aluminum extrusion since it was so warped from the end caps being welded on as well as the holes not being tapped properly. All those things created a major preload on the bearing blocks when everything was tight.
Let me know if you need me to clarify anything I wrote it sounds like you are having the same issue I had, I just realized I had the issue right away because I was using very high rapid speeds 1000ipm per the machine specs. After making the changes that I mentioned I'm running 940ipm due to my high resolution and it's working great, I just need to shim out the liniar rails to get them flatter and it will be close to perfect.
For now I have a wave of sorts going on with the rails of 0.01-0.03 through out the travel with one rail being worse than the other. This is not good but I'm compasating for it by leaving the bearing blocks loose so they can essentially float and not reintroduce the preload.
I know it's not the right way of doing it but it's working for now and since the bolts are covered by the gantry they can't get any looser than I have them set to. Also it hasn't had any noticeable affect on any of the parts I've cut, everything is coming out to spec. I was worried that I might have a issue with cut depth variance but I haven't seen any yet and I believe it would show up when cutting through the material. It doesn't touch spoil board when I cut through material zeroing off the spoil board so I'm OK with it for now. I also was able to get the spoil board surfaced with only a 0.001-0.006 variation through out the surface. My plan is to either do what I mentioned before or try to get it flatter using shiming material.
Dan
Sorry for the short reply...but I'm exhausted. Im saying even if the rails are parallel to each other...if you look down the table...like you might look down a 2x4 timber to see if it's straight...the rail could possibly be toed in or out vertically like if you were to draw a line from floor to ceiling through each rail those would not be parallel even though the rails lengthwise were.
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re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wmgeorge
Gary I think 80/20 offers a machining option would that be an good option for a DIY builder?
Bill, I do not believe 80/20 offers surface milling (like for linear rails) as an option. Misumi does, but not 80/20.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
islaww
Bill...
Yes it would, but few if any would pay for it. Besides, you still end up with an extrusion. For the most part they are used because they are 1) Low cost, 2) lightweight and 3) easy to bolt to. Extrusion machines are no where near as rigid as most branded machines, even the Chinese.
I agree with Gary. Even if 80/20 offered surface milling, probably no one would pay for it. Remember 80/20's cut tolerances, .002"/inch for square and .015" for length. If that's the closest they can get for cutting, you have to wonder what the tolerance would be for surface milling. As much to the point, the cost would probably drive off most folks. If money was no object, you'd buy a GOOD branded machine every time.
At the end of the day, CNCRP/Avid may provide a good case study for extrusion-based CNCs. 80/20's cut tolerances are pretty loose. Yet, the owners get them put together. The other tolerances are way below what they are supposed to be for linear rails, yet most have little problem getting them to run smoothly. Even more remarkable, given Avid's instructions for rail mounting - placing a jig at each end of the rail and simply tightening down the rail bolts from there. If the rails aren't perfectly straight, and there's no guarantee they will been, there are many opportunities for things to get off a little. Heck, just the act of tightening down a mounting bolt can cause more than the acceptable amount of deflection. Still, they run and folks are happy with them. Owners sing their praises. Are they as stiff as welded machines? No way. As heavy? Nope. As accurate? Maybe; maybe not. Do they do what owners bought them to do? You bet. Do they cost as much as a branded welded machine? Not in this lifetime.
My machine, except for the gantry, uses profiles twice the size of the kits. I also used the heavy stuff, versus the lite variety the kits use. Safe to say, given my design, mine is about twice the weight of the kits. Not the weight of a welded steel machine, but pretty heavy. All-in-all, way more stout than the usual kit or DIY.
Gary
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re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Erik F
Sorry for the short reply...but I'm exhausted. Im saying even if the rails are parallel to each other...if you look down the table...like you might look down a 2x4 timber to see if it's straight...the rail could possibly be toed in or out vertically like if you were to draw a line from floor to ceiling through each rail those would not be parallel even though the rails lengthwise were.
Ok I know what you mean now, it's because the steel tube dips in the middle. If you took a 123 block and put it o the tube across the width you will see what I'm talking about you will see daylight and can fit a feeler guage in the gap to see how much. What happened is the rails aren't wide enough to to bridge the gap so they wound up cockeyed. The gear rack has the same problem but worse since it's mounted closer to the edge. I already shimed my gear rack so that it's square with the pinion gear, luckily I caught it early since it was already starting to wear the aluminum pinion gear. Basically you are going to either need to buy some shiming material spend some time squaring and leveling the linear rails or mount a piece of material to bridge the gap and then either use set screws to level and square the flatbar or break the machine down and take the frame to a machine shop and have all the mounting surfaces milled. I haven't decided yet which direction I'm going to take.
BTW by loosening the bolts I told you about it will compensate for the cockeyed rails as well, my machine has the same problem and one side of the bearing blocks have a bigger gap than the other. On my machine the liniar rails are tilted inward slightly, in other words the side of the rails closest to the machine bed is lower than the side facing the rack and pinion.
I'm sure you can tell I've spent way too much time finding all the build flaws on these machines as well as how to fix them. If you have any other questions or need me to send you pictures or a video just let me know. I feel bad for anyone who is trying to get one of these routers dialed in, and I just hope that once my machine is dialed that there isn't any component failure due to the **** build quality. It does seem to have decent parts installed on the frame so time will tell.
It kind of reminds me of buying a old car that has a bunch of nice parts but you still have to redo almost everything because the guy who built it didn't know what he was doing. Yes this has happened to me more than I would like to admit and by the time I got things right and done cussing at whomever the hack was that did the original work I was like why the **** didn't I just build one from scratch.
Unfortunately sometimes trying to save some dough costs you in the end, actually most of the time it goes that way but some of us are forever searching for that damn unicorn.