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We have a new HAAS VF-3 (40"x20") Mill and have a few jobs that require the use of a 4th Axis Indexing Head. We bought our mill with a HAAS HRT210 Indexing Head. Since the table is fairly small, when we're NOT using the indexer, we need to remove it from the table. This occurs quite often. We really don't have a good way of lifting the HRT210 in and out of the VF-3.
Does anyone have any clever ideas that might make things a little easier?
thanks in advance.
-Glenn
For lifting a HRT210 in and out of a VF2 I modified an engine hoist by mounting the casters on a piece of flat bar welded to the top of the base tubes instead of having the casters bolted under the tube. This lowered the base several inches. Then I raised the VF2 an inch or so higher than normal by putting aluminum pads under the pucks that the levelling screws rest on. This way the base of the engine hoist could could go under the machine with the boom inside to pick up the rotary.
Vf2ss
I moved mine on friday and off today,
I have a cart that is as high as the table and I slide it on and off. I picked it up it wasnt that heavy either, just watch your fingers
I have a engine hoist, for it but havent shortened the legs up yet, the engine hoist is the only way to go, just shorten the legs about 1-2 feet.
this is one of those compact engine hoist that fold up. It has sliding legs and a extended boom, if you cut the tabs off the legs , the legs will slide in farther.
Delw
If 'it wasn't that heavy' you must be a gorilla.:) The first time I put one in a VF machine I didn't have any hoist or cart so I lifted it in stages up onto some boxes then inched it along a length of plywood between the stack of boxes and the machine table; it was d****d heavy, to me at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by Delw
I never did that again.
I have always had someone help me we stick a bar thru the 2 in hole and pick it up it is fairly heavy. I will have to modify my engine lift if I use this more it has only been in there twice.
Mike
Geof is telling you the smart way to do it, you want the front wheels under the weight. I've seen it with the wheels behind the weight (boom extended), and with the boom turned about the frame 180 degrees. Both of these had alot of weight added to the base to increase the mechanical advantage. Even with the weight added these were not stable and could send the rotary to the floor.
The additional benefit to to raising the machine....ergonomics. You don't have to bendover as far to put parts, vices etc in and out of the machine. You don't really notice/appreciate this until you work on the bigger VF's then go and do work on a VF0,1 or 2.
Stay Safe,
Sam
My vf2 sets at the prefect height along with my rolling carts for me , I dont have to bend over to pick anything up off the cart to put on the mill and vise versa, its more of a pickup and slde than anything else, dead lifting one of these things forget it.
The plywood and alum trick works good have used them on the fadals and acrolocs,
Sam,
Thats worried me about he weight distibution on the engine lift also by shortening the legs. I planned on putting about 8 shotgun shot bags on the lift in the back.
now that you guys talk about raising the machine, I might end up doing that, the thought of dropping something that cost 8-10k is pretty scarey
Dekw
The funny thing is that the machine we raised is part of a 'cell' run by a small fellow so he has to stand on a platfrom to easily reach the slightly higher machine.Quote:
Originally Posted by samhyto
we also have a moving table but we welded tubing out riggers that put the hrt 210 right over the table then we just slide the cart back ..
Wow, guys... Thanks for all the ideas. I had thought about using an engine crane, but the one that I have has casters that cause the legs to sit too high to slide under the VF-3. I really didn't want to have to lift the VF-3 and install riser blocks and have to re-level the machine, but it sounds like I might end up doing just that.
I figured I'd pose this question because I had one heck of a time putting the HRT210 on the table the first time. Since we didn't have the right equipment, here's what we did...(won't do this again, though) We wheeled the steel cart with the HRT210 to one end of the VF-3 cabinet. I grabbed two other guys in the shop and a 10 foot 2" Pipe. I looped a chain over the pipe and latched it onto the HRT210 lifting ring. One guy stood at the end of the cabinet and one guy stood at the front of the machine with the doors open. Both guys lifted each end of the pipe, while I slid the HRT210 onto the table by sliding the chain along the pipe. Then the guys lowered the pipe to rest the indexer on the table. In short, it worked, it was somewhat safe, but I prefer not to involve three guys in what should be such a simple task.
The biggest pain in the butt is that the cabinet won't let you get a rolling cart close enough to the table to slide the indexer onto the table without some sort of bridge or ramp. I guess an engine crane does seem like the best way to go if I can get the legs under the cabinet.
Thanks again for all the posts, guys!
-Glenn
Buzzards Bay, MA
There's a company in Idaho that makes compact cranes for doing just this type of lifting. We've been looking for a way to safely lift our 4th as well. I ran across this company doing an internet search after seeing one of their products in the Enco catalog.
Here's a link to the webpage fo Skyhook. http://www.skyhook.cc/
We're probably going with the 8570 cart and integrated crane, since we've also been looking at either buying or fabricating a cart for all of our heavy tooling, so it's not sitting on a work bench.
Chris
Of course you can always build your own solution bolted onto the machine.
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22023
We've always used a "bridge" like you say. It consists of a piece of wood extended through one of the machine's windows. We keep the indexer on top of a rolling cabinet that gets wheeled up to the machine, so it doesn't have to be moved anywhere else when out of the machine.
I like the idea of keeping it inside the enclosure though. I've brought up Geof's setup to the other guys in the shop and hope to eventually wear them down to the idea (lol)
Here is a bit of ammunition to wear them down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ydna
The machine should always be turned off when the rotary is connected or disconnected. Whenever you install or remove it there is a chance that someone will forget to turn the machine off. If it lives in the enclosure you never disconnect it so there is never a risk of causing problems.
That was one of the reasons I created ways to keep the rotaries inside the machines and out of the way when they were not in use.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof
Now I understand that part of the post. I was always looking at the pics going WTH did he bring that 4th axis in from, Thats a very clever idea..Quote:
4). The rotary lives inside the machine enclosure hanging from a turnbuckle attached to the square tube that supports the controller. With the vises gone the machine table is moved over (Fig 5),
I would prefer if it was setting on something solid and be able to hold its weight (or both) and not hanging in the air from a chain. I wonder of there is a way to make some sort of table to into the enclosure to hold it up.
Delw
Stage I. At first I made a new tube that was longer for my engine hoist. With the 210 I had to add counter weights to the rear but then you could move it in and out easy.
Stage II. Then when I did the move, the machine "just happened" to end up under a beam. So I just used a come-along to lift it up out of the way..and still leave it connected.
Stage III. Now I have built risers for the vices at the other end of the table so I can just leave the damn thing in. I use it quite a bit so it makes more sense. With the vices raised up there are no worries about hitting the 4th..and tool changes are a lot faster :banana: Which is good because with all that weight on the table I keep the rapids at 50% :(
Gary
Why? I think it is a 1/2" eyebolt which is rated for a couple of thousand pounds or so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Delw
Actually on our original VF0 I did do just what you mention, I made a table off to the right in the enclosure. Then it was simply a case of move the machine table fully to the right, unclamp the rotary and slide it off when it was not needed. The rotary was bolted to a subplate which made it more stable for sliding it around. When the VF0 was briefly taken out of service we removed the support table for the rotary and never installed it again.
I get nervous having something that cost 8-10 sitting on a chain in the air. I know the eyebolt will hold it but I have this bad luck streak, you know the one in a Million chance of it happening? I am usually the one in a million guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof
that being said it sure is tempting and would make life lots easier. a small support like you built saves a ton of room. I am definately going to give it some serious thought.
I was looking at a way to make a support( like a table in the bottom of the quote above) on my vf2 this morning and I dont think there is really a way for me to do this on my machine that I would trust it to hold. as its all sheet metal. I really think your chain way is safer than making a table in the machine enclosure.
Delw
Added:
you know in looking and thinking a little more. that support you have could be made into a Elevator so to speak Have 2 -3 bars going into the top of the machine from the top of the crane, that would support the weight and ease my mind a tad. have pins hold the table that the rotary table sits on. Kinda like a hydraulic frame press so to speak, the chain then could be used to lower and raise the table by removing the pins. it wouldnt recuirer much more cutting in the top sheet metal and the coolant and be kepts inside the machine by rubber around the rails.
What do you think geof?
Delw
You reminded me of an iteration we went through that I had forgotten. I was the one that used to slide the rotary off the machine table onto the storage table. Then we hired the little guy I mentioned above, he couldn't move it so we went to a hoist that poked in through the side window. With this he lifted it and moved it to the storage table.
The storage table was mounted on the sheet metal at the joint between the upper part and the pan. If you look inside the machine the enclosure and pan are bolted together on about a 12" spacing. I bolted lengths of steel angle along the joint line and then built the table support up from this. There was plenty of strength.
Your 'Elevator' sounds a bit complicated and I do not picture how you will move the rotary to the side to get clearance for vises on the table. On the Super MiniMill it is possible to mount the rotary so it does not interfere with the vises and it is possible to just lift it straight up out of the way with the turnbuckle. However, on the VF machines it is necessary to move it away to the right as well as lifting it.