Vision 2448 Table Connector Pin-Outs?

So I picked up a Vision 2448 the other day for the low low price of zero dollars. It runs fine, works great, etc. Came with the controller (a series 2), dust collector, the computer, and Vision Pro 6 with dongle.

My problem, however, is that the controller doesn't seem to be amenable to taking G-code in any way, shape or form, and Vision Pro 6 is extremely limited in what it can do. (It's great for engraving I'm sure, but I want to pull the engraving spindles off and put a router on instead, and VP6 doesn't do 3D.)

Does anyone know what the pin-outs are for the table connector? It seems like I should be able to run a DB-25 connector straight to the PC and drive this thing with Mach 3 or something similar, with no separate breakout board, as the steppers get their power from the controller. I'd like to set this up so that I can just switch cables between the computer and the controller, and do either engraving or routing, as the mood strikes, so I don't want to start changing the wiring on the table.

Anyone out there have any information? Or, alternatively, a way to trick the series 2 controller (it's serial input only, not ethernet) into accepting 3D g-code?

The best trick is to crack open the control box and have a look at what drivers they have in there and retrofit with a new control. You will not be able to really accomplish much good with that old motion control system.

By the way, that is actually a very nice machine you have there. It was a simple design, but pretty rigid with that solid table top. I cut a lot of stuff on a 2448 !


Back in about '95-'96, I retro'd a series one 2448 machine (had 3hp Perske on it) so we could run G-code (it was hpgl) to Ah-ha ! and then finally to Flashcut in '97 where it finally ran incredibly well. That machine still has Flashcut on it today and running well....... If I recall, the engraver models had a lower height gantry........

I personally have a 1624 engraver that I think was a series 2 control before I raided it, and it has good ole IMS483 drives in it. My desktop looking cabinet with the slant front and tactic layered buttons on it had their outdated motion control board on a separate layer in the box, and the drivers where all tied together on the input side with a PC board with pins sticking into the drives.

Because you can get all the wiring data you need for the IMS Drivers, it's real easy to just yank their control board, leave the original power supply in place as well as all the motor wiring and just wire the motion level input of the drivers to a new control. Mine is running the best of course... FLASHCUT !!! :-)

I just put a new DB25 on the back of the cabinet.... inside the plug is wired to the drivers and outside, I run my motion data into it from my control. Your control cabinet probably has the variable speed supply source for the engraving spindle too.... that all stays in place.


Regards your V-Pro.... I'm very familiar with it as well. Its a private label version of Engravelab / Signlab which on the surface, is a good thing. Those older versions of signlab were rock solid and STILL do a lot of things a bunch of the knuckleheads who design "new" and "better" software still fail to do !

Nonetheless, one concern is to look into your "drivers" section and see what drivers are there. SOME of the V-Pro versions were sold with passcodes that ONLY RAN VISION machines and Vision machine drivers. If you called Vision with your dongle number (you have a parallel port dongle or USB dongle?), they should be able to still tell you what you have to work with, and whether you will be able to create G-code with it. I've got two copies of what was once V-Pro, but fanagled both versions into Signlab directly after upgrading.

V-Pro 6 is equivalent to Signlab 5, which was a good version. I dont believe it runs on anything newer than XP though. Signlab went off the rails with their versions 6 and 7..... they broke a lot of things for us engraver guys while they chased the RIP world. v7.1 got better, but it was where I drew the line. I got tired of reminding them to fix what they broke WHILE sending upgrade money (these software developers can be ruthless) I still mostly use my old v5.

I forgot... "breakout board". Your controls INPUT plug is SERIAL. You essentially transferred your toolpath file to the internal motion board.....You can even find a "Spooler" program in your V-Pro folder that allowed a guy to stack up jobs at the machine.

The DB25 on the back is the connection between table and drivers (limits too). So you cant plug into that DB25 with a PC.... you have to plug into it, another control cabinet with Power Supply and Drivers already in it. That's foolish when you already have that. You should not have to "switch back and forth" either if you can get a post (they are .INI files) for G-code regards the V-Pro. They have them, and they are Somewhat configurable. No need for HPGL ever again (and you will be happy for that!)

Breakout boards.... ya,,, what a marketing thing. Well, you dont need one with Flashcut.... but with Mach, I think the whole breakout board thingy was a way to increase the output voltages of weak LPT ports. IF you had weak ports.

In many cases, I think most people had been led to believe they needed one of the many breakout boards... so they immediately spent their money on one of them. I've often just used one of the DB25's that are available with screw terminals on the back side.

Okay, thanks, lot of good info there.

I opened up the top cover of the controller, and sure enough - there's 4 IMS IM283's in there. (This machine originally appears to have been sold with a 4th axis. This will be useful to me - since it currently has dual engraving heads, I've got everything I need to make my own 4th axis.)

So, basically though, all I need is to disconnect the IM283's from the main control board, and run the wires to a new DB25 connector on the back of the box (or wherever) and then send that straight to the computer? And I'll be able to remap the pin-outs in whatever software I use?

As far as the gantry height, the gantry itself is the same height for all of the machines, whether router or engraver. The difference is that the ones that were originally sold as routers have an extension block between the bottom of the gantry and the linear bearings. I can get a 6" extension from Vision for $150 + shipping. To start off with, I'll probably keep (one of) the engraving heads, but I might wind up making some clamps and putting a trim router on there. Eventually I'm going to probably just shell out the $600 for the high speed spindle, though.

This version of Vision, unfortunately, is not compatible with G-code. I can only use HPGL stuff - .PLT files - with it. Vision Pro 6 apparently can only do 2D stuff, also, which is ... limiting.


Okay, so I'll be bringing the table home tomorrow and I'll start playing with it. If it's really just as simple as a DB25 connector and connecting the pins to the driver boards ... that'll be quick and simple. I'll probably be bothering you for more information, though. :)

>>> I opened up the top cover of the controller, and sure enough - there's 4 IMS IM283's in there.

I recall it being mentioned somewhere along the line that some of the machines with dual heads used a motor driver for each Z axis motor.... My 1624 had a dual head as well, but both Z axis motors were being driven by the same driver. I'd make sure you map the z axis out to see, and then make sure if you pull that one head off, that the motor wires are protected from shorting or pull the main power from that driver until you establish a real 4th axis and things are connected proper.

A note on your "spare" head...... I sold my extra head/assembly on ebay for some pretty good money. It makes an instant axis for someone building a machine (just add 1/2" rails), or it can be used by guys with Vision machines that would have jumped aboard a second axis if it were not for the crazy money they want for them. Heck, the engraving spindles alone run about $500+ new. So keep that in mind.

>>> So, basically though, all I need is to disconnect the IM283's from the main control board, and run the wires to a new DB25 connector on the back of the box (or wherever) and then send that straight to the computer? And I'll be able to remap the pin-outs in whatever software I use?

Yep... that's all I did. I would make sure you make a quick map of the wire colors and where they go regards everything other than the step/dir connections so that you keep things intact. I recall their power supply has a 5 volt source in there. Your worst case scenario would be to build a simple box in between for a fancy breakout board if your PC and Mach setup can't pull it off by itself. Like I said, that whole "enhanced breakout board" stuff was created by an available $$ market when Mach came out. Older controls like IndexerLPT, TurboCNC, Microk.... none of those used anything between.....

>>> To start off with, I'll probably keep (one of) the engraving heads, but I might wind up making some clamps and putting a trim router on there. Eventually I'm going to probably just shell out the $600 for the high speed spindle, though.

Seems to me, that there was a very distinct difference between the engraver models and the router models.... In fact, I know there was. The engraver models of the 2448 machine had their Y axis rail assembly laying flat... one rail behind the other where the router models had their Y axis rails standing on edge with one rail above the other. The router models had a nice big plate for a z axis.... you could hang anything on there.

Regards the engraver models, their whole Y axis carriage was a section of specific extrusion and kind of difficult to put much on it like a router.

Perhaps you are lucky enough to have the router version with two engraver attachments on it ?? They did sell engraving heads that bolted onto the main Z axis plate. EITHER WAY, you are one lucky, LUCKY guy to get that machine..... I'd GLADLY take another that size and that style (though I do wonder where I would put it!)

>>> This version of Vision, unfortunately, is not compatible with G-code. I can only use HPGL stuff - .PLT files - with it. Vision Pro 6 apparently can only do 2D stuff, also, which is ... limiting.

If and when you ever get that far that you are interested in seeing if we can get your version to work with a G-Code post, let me know. I know what we have to do in order to try it. Sure, its only 2.5d, but not everything is 3d you know.... If it is truly stuck in the hpgl world, and you "convert" that machine, that software is not going to have much value to you.... but it will to others if you decide to sell it.

>>> If it's really just as simple as a DB25 connector and connecting the pins to the driver boards ... that'll be quick and simple. I'll probably be bothering you for more information, though.

I forgot to grab the folder by my machine that had my notes and or drawings of wiring diagrams and what I found in it..... I was going to look to see how detailed I got (or not). The IM drives have good documentation available for download, so the input aspect is a no brainer.

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Originally Posted by datac

I recall it being mentioned somewhere along the line that some of the machines with dual heads used a motor driver for each Z axis motor.... My 1624 had a dual head as well, but both Z axis motors were being driven by the same driver. I'd make sure you map the z axis out to see, and then make sure if you pull that one head off, that the motor wires are protected from shorting or pull the main power from that driver until you establish a real 4th axis and things are connected proper.

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The two Z axis motors are driven off the same IM483. The output from the 4th one goes to the port on my controller labled "4th Axis" so I'm pretty sure that I won't run into problems there. :)

The second Z head is piggybacked onto the first one, both in terms of mechanical connection via a bar and electrically as well. There's a pigtail going from the one to the other.

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A note on your "spare" head...... I sold my extra head/assembly on ebay for some pretty good money. It makes an instant axis for someone building a machine (just add 1/2" rails), or it can be used by guys with Vision machines that would have jumped aboard a second axis if it were not for the crazy money they want for them. Heck, the engraving spindles alone run about $500+ new. So keep that in mind.

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There is that as an option, yes. The other thing I've been sort of kicking around is trying to set up some sort of boring thing using some parts of the Z head, and using the stepper for the 4th axis. (I'm having to give up my EXTREMELY LARGE lathe to fit this into my garage, and it's worth it for the gain in capability, but I'd still like to have the ability to do some small-scale lathe-type stuff.)

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Yep... that's all I did. I would make sure you make a quick map of the wire colors and where they go regards everything other than the step/dir connections so that you keep things intact. I recall their power supply has a 5 volt source in there. Your worst case scenario would be to build a simple box in between for a fancy breakout board if your PC and Mach setup can't pull it off by itself. Like I said, that whole "enhanced breakout board" stuff was created by an available $$ market when Mach came out. Older controls like IndexerLPT, TurboCNC, Microk.... none of those used anything between.....

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Okay. Hopefully I'll be able to drive things without an additional board, but even if I do need it, I've already got one. (I bought the HobbyCNC 4-axis kit for my own home-build JGRO setup, but ... suddenly that seems a whole lot less useful now that I've got the new toy. I quite gleefully chainsawed the JGRO yesterday. :D )

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Seems to me, that there was a very distinct difference between the engraver models and the router models.... In fact, I know there was. The engraver models of the 2448 machine had their Y axis rail assembly laying flat... one rail behind the other where the router models had their Y axis rails standing on edge with one rail above the other. The router models had a nice big plate for a z axis.... you could hang anything on there.

Regards the engraver models, their whole Y axis carriage was a section of specific extrusion and kind of difficult to put much on it like a router.

Perhaps you are lucky enough to have the router version with two engraver attachments on it ?? They did sell engraving heads that bolted onto the main Z axis plate. EITHER WAY, you are one lucky, LUCKY guy to get that machine..... I'd GLADLY take another that size and that style (though I do wonder where I would put it!)

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Okay, sounds like I got lucky then - my Y-axis rails are one above the other, and the plate on the Z-axis is about 8 x 14 inches or so, with a lot more holes in it than are used by the engraving spindles. They're mounted all the way at the very bottom of the thing. I really need to get the extension blocks for the gantry - I've got almost 6" more travel on the Z-axis than I can actually use right now.

I'm VERY lucky to have gotten this, absolutely. My company had it sitting in the corner, hadn't run it for almost 2 years. It would probably have just gone to a junkyard.

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If and when you ever get that far that you are interested in seeing if we can get your version to work with a G-Code post, let me know. I know what we have to do in order to try it. Sure, its only 2.5d, but not everything is 3d you know.... If it is truly stuck in the hpgl world, and you "convert" that machine, that software is not going to have much value to you.... but it will to others if you decide to sell it.

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It is stuck in HPGL, unfortunately. I suspect I'm going to wind up putting the dongle on eBay, let someone else deal with it. Maybe. I might keep things with whatever I do reversable, so that I can run Vision Pro if I find a need to, but I don't really anticipate using it much.

It's true that not everything is 3D ... but outside of the odd pocketing operation and some engraving of serial numbers and such, 99.9% of what I will be wanting to do will be 3D. :p

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I forgot to grab the folder by my machine that had my notes and or drawings of wiring diagrams and what I found in it..... I was going to look to see how detailed I got (or not). The IM drives have good documentation available for download, so the input aspect is a no brainer.

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Any information you could share would be very helpful!

So I've got the manual for the IM483's now, and I shouldn't have to do much to get those up and running the way I want. One thing I will have an issue with, though, is the steppers themselves: I know they're 4-wire versions, but Vision seems to be ... I guess "limited" is the polite way to say it, in what information they even have about the machine. They can tell me what month and year it was manufactured, but they can't tell me what even what brand of steppers they were using, never mind what model, or have a data sheet for them.

Do you have any specific information on the steppers that are in your machine? I shouldn't have to do anything with the drivers as far as setting up the DIP switches, but I'm sure I'll have to tell the software some basic information so that it knows how many pulses to send out at any given time.

What about the thread pitch on the lead screws? I suspect I'll probably have to take home my calipers from work and do some measuring, but ... if you already know the answers, that would save me some time.

The motors were typical on the shops 2448..... Nema 34's. I think they were about 300oz..... 200 steps per rev. The screws on the X and Y were .500 Lead.... >> 2 turns for 1" of travel, while the Z axis was .250 Lead... 4 turns per inch of travel. Your drivers are probably set for 3 or 3.5 amps.

You got one heck of a deal there.... I too ALMOST got the one from the shop I worked at, but another guy closer to the boss man got it. It inspired me to build a "nuclear version"... a little wider, a little faster... a little taller and a little more rigid (the Data-Cut Machine).

It's a perfect size machine.......

Okay, so my first attempt at Mach3 conversion has ended in ignominious defeat.

Keeping the +5v signal from the controller and bringing step and dir in from the (new) DB25 port didn't actually accomplish anything so far as I can tell. It certainly didn't make my motors turn ...

On the plus side, I did manage to get the limit switches to show up, so that's something at least.

I may just finish assembling the HobbyCNC controller that I already have, and just put a DB25 connector on the back of it, instead of just using the screw-in wire terminals. That will let me connect it to the table's existing DB25 port, and just swap back and forth between the Vision controller and my own controller, as needed.

Oh - bonus time today, though: turns out that I don't need to buy the upgraded spindles for my machine to use collets and standard router bits. The spindles that came with the machine can use the top-loading bits ... but they also have collets at the bottom so you can use regular router bits. Nice little discovery for me ... :)

Hm - just ran into another problem ... There appears to be a soft limit somewhere in the controller that prevents the second head from crashing into the gantry ... and now that the second head is removed, I need to figure out how to work around that. Any thoughts?

I don"t ever recall a time where I had or found the ability to get in there and adjust any of the underlying parameters with Westerns control...... I think you will be at their mercy. I would assume that they either have a specific program written that they use to "see" the control parameters.... and its doubtful they will share that with anyone, or, they might have a flashable bios where they give you a file, you copy it to the machine via the serial connection.

Now how much $$ they want for that.... probably going to hurt. This is exactly why they make their stuff proprietary. Proprietary works for joe blow who doe not know the alternatives, but stinks for guys like us.

It sounds like the only reason you want to keep the vision intact is so you have HPGL capability from V-Pro. Myself, I'd first give a good shot at seeing if you can make V-Pro post G-code or not regardless of what they told you it could do. Contact me outside of the forum and I can guide you thru that. It will be as simple as dropping a new post file into a folder and editing an INI file.

If by chance you could get it to post G-code, I'd toss the vision "control" part into the depths of Hades as fast as I could. It's essentially junk in comparison to any retrofit control available where you the user can adjust whatever you want.

Re-using their motor drivers with your favorite control is by far better than what they have there any day of the week.

I don't really care about the HPGL capability from VPro - I can export that stuff and run HPGL from Mach3 if I really needed to, but it would be a lot simpler (and more familiar) for me to just create whatever I want with Autodesk Inventor and use VisualMill to do my toolpathing. (That's what I do at work, and I have my own licenses for both to use at home as well.)

The big reason that I want to keep the serial controller intact-ish (or at least not changed irreversibly) is that it's worth about a thousand bucks in trade-in credit with Vision, and if they're willing to give me that much (and turn around and resell it, more than likely) then it's probably worth even more than that to just sell to someone else.

If I get Mach3 to run the drivers, then I won't need to care about the soft limit that's built in, because the Vision control logic will be bypassed. I think my big problem from this weekend is that the +5V power to the IM483's, which I still had coming from the Vision board, is probably not enabled unless the machine is actually sending commands.

I suspect that what I'm probably going to need to do is run a new +5V to pin 1:4 on each of the IM483's. I can probably get that just by cutting off the end of a USB cable, and running the USB ground wire to one of the COM pins on the new DB25 connector? Does that sound right?

I was looking for some info on the linear bearings used in my router, and happened to find this old thread with Google.

What a fun few years it's been since I posted this originally!

The only thing remaining stock on my router is the mechanical assembly of the table itself.

I replaced the NEMA 34's that drive the X and Y axes with much more powerful units, 465oz-in. (Once I found the part number for the original ones, I discovered that they were actually only something like 90oz-in, which seems like a waste in a package as big as a NEMA 34!) The NEMA 23 on the Z-axis was replaced with a 305 oz-in one.

The engraving spindle is gone now as well. I had a Bosch Colt on there for a while, but eventually needed something a little bigger: I have a Bosch 1617EVS mounted up now, with a collet set from Precisebits and closed-loop speed control courtesy of SuperPID. (What a wonderful device that is!)

The whole thing is driven by Mach3, through an Ethernet Smoothstepper and a Gecko G540. The carcass of the original controller is in pieces in my garage now. I'm still holding on to the IM483 drivers for another project that I might eventually get around to someday. Maybe. Possibly.

It's been one hell of a fun ride, mostly. There've been plenty of frustrating days and weekends, but on the whole I've really enjoyed building up this wonderful, lovely machine.

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Originally Posted by peter.steele

I replaced the NEMA 34's that drive the X and Y axes with much more powerful units, 465oz-in. (Once I found the part number for the original ones, I discovered that they were actually only something like 90oz-in, which seems like a waste in a package as big as a NEMA 34!) The NEMA 23 on the Z-axis was replaced with a 305 oz-in one.

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Hey Peter,
I bought a 2424 Router. I'm looking to do similar retro as you did. Where did you find the part number on these stepper motors? I don't really want to sink anymore money into this machine than I have to (or until it starts making me more money) I attached a 2kw Chinese water cooled spindle to mine and it plows through anything I throw at it.

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Originally Posted by AlexanderJohn

Hey Peter,
I bought a 2424 Router. I'm looking to do similar retro as you did. Where did you find the part number on these stepper motors? I don't really want to sink anymore money into this machine than I have to (or until it starts making me more money) I attached a 2kw Chinese water cooled spindle to mine and it plows through anything I throw at it.

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To be honest, I don't remember the exact details of where the markings were. The fact that I had to remove them before I could find the info makes me think that it was on the face of the motor, but I really can't remember for sure. I just remember that they were crap and I was thrilled to see them leaving my garage!

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Originally Posted by peter.steele

The whole thing is driven by Mach3, through an Ethernet Smoothstepper and a Gecko G540. The carcass of the original controller is in pieces in my garage now. I'm still holding on to the IM483 drivers for another project that I might eventually get around to someday. Maybe. Possibly.

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Is there any way you could show me your setup? Like a picture? I feel like I could do this with my setup.

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Originally Posted by AlexanderJohn

Is there any way you could show me your setup? Like a picture? I feel like I could do this with my setup.

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Unfortunately right now it's sort of in pieces, so pictures aren't likely to be a lot of good. If you have questions about specific stuff, though, I can certainly try and work you through figuring out anything that you need.

The G540 blew a driver last year, and I haven't had the time / energy / spare cash to finish fixing it, as my reserves of all three have been going into some fairly unpleasant medical stuff.

Coming up when I have the time / energy / money, I'm going to more than likely rip out the guts of the control panel that I built and start over, using a CNC4PC board that'll just plug directly into the smoothstepper, and some separate drivers for the motors, rather than going back to the G540.