Re: 220V spindle on 110V?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rs4race
Hi all I know this has been asked before, but I cant seem to find the information I'm looking for. I'm interested in getting a spindle with er16 for a benchtop mill (similar to a router in style) but I need to be compatible with 120V (US). The smallest spindle that I've found with er16 is 1500W and 220V. I saw that there are vfd's that will input 120V and output 220V but the claim is that performance is significantly decreased, but I haven't seen how much. Does anyone know how the performance is effected? I imagine its reduced torque, but not sure how this looks through the rpm range. I'm pretty happy with 200W cuts on my g0704, and this machine I would be happy with the same, but if I maxed out at 750W that would be enough for me.
Anything type of 3 Phase motor that you run on single phase is going to have a performance drop by at least 1/3 of the normal output of the motor in some cases, you have to use a derating of up to 50%
In your case it can even get worse 120v single phase input and 220v 3ph output, your input amps will be twice that of 240v supply single phase to 220v 3ph output
Its always better if you can install a 240v single phase supply if you can as if will help to minimize with the derating
It seems that this will work for you if you are only expecting around 1/2 the output of the spindle rating, it is usually a little better than 1/2 that you can expect to get from a 120v supply to 220v 3Ph output
Re: 220V spindle on 110V?
Thanks for the reply! Is that 30-50% output power drop at the same input power? If I had 120V 12.5A (1.5kW) it would still loose 30-50% output power? Is this due to vfd efficiency?
Re: 220V spindle on 110V?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rs4race
Thanks for the reply! Is that 30-50% output power drop at the same input power? If I had 120V 12.5A (1.5kW) it would still loose 30-50% output power? Is this due to vfd efficiency?
You would need a minimum of 25A for 120v supply to come close to a 12.5A 3Ph output to the spindle
To explain it in the most basic terms, you are powering a 3 Phase spindle, that has ( 3 ) Hot wires your supply only has ( 1 ) hot wire 120v NA, to not have any derating you would need a 3 Phase supply ( 3 ) Hot wires, so even using 240v single phase you still will have a derating, a VFD is not magic it can't make a greater output than the input, it does not have much to do with efficiency
Re: 220V spindle on 110V?
Hmm. It makes sense that you cant get more output than input, were talking about power right?
I guess I was assuming a 1500W 220V motor should be about 7 amps on the output. I figure this means at least 120V 12.5A (1500W) on the input. Is there something Im missing?
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Re: 220V spindle on 110V?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rs4race
Hmm. It makes sense that you cant get more output than input, were talking about power right?
I guess I was assuming a 1500W 220V motor should be about 7 amps on the output. I figure this means at least 120V 12.5A (1500W) on the input. Is there something Im missing?
The input amp requirement is around double that of what the output will be for a 240v supply, most VFD Drive manufacturers supply you with this information look at the Drive spec's for input Amps and output Amps like this one below, these are very close to what yours will be, you will need around 25A for your supply at 120V
Re: 220V spindle on 110V?
That's interesting, this is all a learning experience for me. Searching myself its hard to find info.
On the other hand I found 110V 2.2kW spindle / vfd set on amazon, also 0.8kW and 1.5kW with ER11. Am I correct in assuming I can limit the power output (so I dont trip the breaker) in the vfd and the 2.2kW spindle will out perform the other two? It's appealing as I assume with an ER20 it will be more rigid, and possibly better at dissipating heat than the other two.
Re: 220V spindle on 110V?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rs4race
That's interesting, this is all a learning experience for me. Searching myself its hard to find info.
On the other hand I found 110V 2.2kW spindle / vfd set on amazon, also 0.8kW and 1.5kW with ER11. Am I correct in assuming I can limit the power output (so I dont trip the breaker) in the vfd and the 2.2kW spindle will out perform the other two? It's appealing as I assume with an ER20 it will be more rigid, and possibly better at dissipating heat than the other two.
No you can not limit the current draw, if you did the spindle would not run very well, please note they don't have 110v 3 phase power in NA these spindles are junk and are just made to make a sale and catch those that are not aware of what they are buying
The performance of a 2.2Kw running on 120V NA supply is dismal , a 0.8Kw is better than the 2.2Kw for 120v supply, a 1.5Kw is the max you can run on 120v supply and then they are not great performers
You have to have a 240v supply if you want a 2.2Kw spindle, yes you will find all kinds of offers out there, just to catch the unaware buyers
Re: 220V spindle on 110V?
Thanks for your help, I'm still not clear on things.
What do you mean by not great performers or dismal?
I really don't care about the 2.2kW rating, I'm not going anywhere near there. It's appealing for the physical size. I have 300-400W cuts in mind. Really the 800W motor will work for me, but the smaller size is less appealing. I thought I read that you could limit the max current in the vfd. I was hoping I could limit the max output current to effectively limit the peak power to 800W (for example) and program my cuts under this power limit I should be good. I cant take advantage of the physically larger 2.2kW motor and limit it to 0.8kW through programming? What would the difference be if I was making a 250W cut with a 0.8kW motor from a 250W cut with a 2.2kW motor?
Re: 220V spindle on 110V?
I don't think there should be any difference in performance between a 2.2kw spindle run on 220v vs and equally powerful 2.2kw spindle run on 110v.
Halving the voltage just means doubling the amps to keep output the same. I.e. An 8a 220v spindle would need to draw 16a 110v.
Similarly, there should be no difference in performance between running a 3 phase spindle from 1 phase power vs 3 phase power. The VFD will just draw more amps on 1 phase power.
For example, my 3 phase spindle requires 20a when run from 3 phase power. To achieve this from my 1 phase outlet, my VFD draws 34amps to output 20a of 3ph power to the spindle.
Whatever spindle you choose, you need to make sure your VFD can output the required 3ph power, you need to make sure it can handle the required 1ph draw and you need to make sure to install the right size breaker for the draw in your main box.
I believe the misunderstanding on running 3ph spindles from my 1ph power originates from phase converters which do suffer from reduced output. With the right VFD there is no need to a phase converter though.
Re: 220V spindle on 110V?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Goemon
I don't think there should be any difference in performance between a 2.2kw spindle run on 220v vs and equally powerful 2.2kw spindle run on 110v.
Halving the voltage just means doubling the amps to keep output the same. I.e. An 8a 220v spindle would need to draw 16a 110v.
Similarly, there should be no difference in performance between running a 3 phase spindle from 1 phase power vs 3 phase power. The VFD will just draw more amps on 1 phase power.
For example, my 3 phase spindle requires 20a when run from 3 phase power. To achieve this from my 1 phase outlet, my VFD draws 34amps to output 20a of 3ph power to the spindle.
Whatever spindle you choose, you need to make sure your VFD can output the required 3ph power, you need to make sure it can handle the required 1ph draw and you need to make sure to install the right size breaker for the draw in your main box.
I believe the misunderstanding on running 3ph spindles from my 1ph power originates from phase converters which do suffer from reduced output. With the right VFD there is no need to a phase converter though.
And you are an expert over night and have done this to know how this even works, you are another one that does not get it or how you can't get anywhere near the same performance using 120v as you can with 240v it's not just about the amperage
Re: 220V spindle on 110V?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rs4race
Thanks for your help, I'm still not clear on things.
What do you mean by not great performers or dismal?
I really don't care about the 2.2kW rating, I'm not going anywhere near there. It's appealing for the physical size. I have 300-400W cuts in mind. Really the 800W motor will work for me, but the smaller size is less appealing. I thought I read that you could limit the max current in the vfd. I was hoping I could limit the max output current to effectively limit the peak power to 800W (for example) and program my cuts under this power limit I should be good. I cant take advantage of the physically larger 2.2kW motor and limit it to 0.8kW through programming? What would the difference be if I was making a 250W cut with a 0.8kW motor from a 250W cut with a 2.2kW motor?
Reduce the amperage you can but expect to smoke the spindle because it is not designed to run like that
You don't know what dismal is, how else can one explain, you sure you want to be doing this, or are you just wasting our time
I would suggest seeing you seen to know better, go ahead and buy the 2.2Kw 110v spindle and see for yourself, be aware if you try to run it from a normal 15 amp outlet expect that it will trip constantly
Re: 220V spindle on 110V?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rs4race
Hi all I know this has been asked before, but I cant seem to find the information I'm looking for. I'm interested in getting a spindle with er16 for a benchtop mill (similar to a router in style) but I need to be compatible with 120V (US). The smallest spindle that I've found with er16 is 1500W and 220V. I saw that there are vfd's that will input 120V and output 220V but the claim is that performance is significantly decreased, but I haven't seen how much. Does anyone know how the performance is effected? I imagine its reduced torque, but not sure how this looks through the rpm range. I'm pretty happy with 200W cuts on my g0704, and this machine I would be happy with the same, but if I maxed out at 750W that would be enough for me.
So if all you need is 750W at 120V with ER16 collets, then why not just buy an 800W 120V ER16 spindle. Do a search and several choices should be available. Most inverters appear to be 240V, but a few of them are 120V, especially in the 800W range.
Steve
Re: 220V spindle on 110V?
I see what you mean about limited options. I looked further and see mostly 800W 120V ER11 spindles or 1500W 240V ER16 spindles. Maybe you have to decide if ER16 is that important to you, then you may need to spring for a 240V power outlet. ER11 is plenty for me with my 800W spindle. I mostly use 1/8" and 1/4" router bits, but have a cheap collet set for the occasional random size bits. I think I purchased it from AliExpress. The price including shipping was slightly cheaper than EBay and they have a lot of vendors.
I believe that the inverters operate similar to a current limiting power supply. They have voltage and current limits. They normally send out the target voltage, but reduce the voltage if the current is too high.
Steve
Re: 220V spindle on 110V?
@rs4race. Is running a 220v 1p line from the breaker box an option? If not, do you have access to dryer or stove 220v receptacle?
