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Which Electronics to Buy
I finally have decided on which machine I am going to purchase (Fineline 2x4 8020 kit), and THOUGHT I knew about the electronics, but the more I look into it the more confused I get. Is there some kind of primer on which Software, Plugin, Motion Controller. BOB, Drivers work well together? I don't want to cheap out and get components that limit me, but don't want to needlessly spend money on things that I am only using 10% of, or spend an arm and a leg on a pre-assembled kit if I can piece it together for cheaper. I have seen BOBs on ebay for $5, and chips alone that are $150 that need to go into a $100 board.
Does anyone have any input on a decent setup that won't break the bank? I would need 4 axis, the potential for a rotational 5th down the road would be great, I would also like to be able to have limit switches, homing switches and a Z axis tool height alignment switch.
Thanks!
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Re: Which Electronics to Buy
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: Which Electronics to Buy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
drxlcarfreak
I finally have decided on which machine I am going to purchase (Fineline 2x4 8020 kit), and THOUGHT I knew about the electronics, but the more I look into it the more confused I get. Is there some kind of primer on which Software, Plugin, Motion Controller. BOB, Drivers work well together? I don't want to cheap out and get components that limit me, but don't want to needlessly spend money on things that I am only using 10% of, or spend an arm and a leg on a pre-assembled kit if I can piece it together for cheaper. I have seen BOBs on ebay for $5, and chips alone that are $150 that need to go into a $100 board.
Does anyone have any input on a decent setup that won't break the bank? I would need 4 axis, the potential for a rotational 5th down the road would be great, I would also like to be able to have limit switches, homing switches and a Z axis tool height alignment switch.
Thanks!
I assume one of your 4 is a clone for a dual ballscrew setup in which case a $5 BOB is fine, I have two of these (1 spare)
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Upgraded-...sAAOSwEOpaAVI6
And it will do everything you want including a rotational axis, needs a PC with a parallel port to work I'm setting up right now with linuxcnc 2.8 so I can square the gantry when homing.
They can be a little confusing to wire up but I can help you they aren't rocket science.
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attach...d=380186&stc=1
If you look it has all the pins you need to get up and running.
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Re: Which Electronics to Buy
So are the more expensive boards to be able to use USB or Ethernet instead of a parallel connection?
http://openbuildspartstore.com/cnc-u...-mk3-4-4-axis/ - I haven't read much on this board, but it appears to remove the need for buying software like Mach 3.
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Re: Which Electronics to Buy
That's a Planet CNC motion controller, and the price includes the cost of the Planet CNC software. If you buy from Planet CNC, the Software is 69 Euros, and the board is 119 Euros.
https://planet-cnc.com/products/
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Re: Which Electronics to Buy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
drxlcarfreak
So are the more expensive boards to be able to use USB or Ethernet instead of a parallel connection?
You are comparing apples and oranges.
To not use the parallel port, you need a motion controller. Be aware that many motion controllers will still require the use of a breakout board.
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Re: Which Electronics to Buy
Ohhhhh!! Okay, that makes sense.
So a motion controller basically just converts USB/Ethernet signal into a parallel port signal that can be split up into the different leads. Do they all have processors in them to handle the transfer as data as well, or is it just like BOBs where some have on board controllers and others are just pass throughs.
So I am guessing that the main advantages are a motion controller creates an electrical barrier between the drivers and computer to potentially save the computer, no need to find an old computer with parallel out, and potentially not needing to buy software such as Mach4. (Does the one I linked not need any addtional software?)
Is the only drawback to a motion controller really the additional cost of the motion controller, which potentially could be partially recouped not having to buy more expensive software like Mach4?
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Re: Which Electronics to Buy
Quote:
So a motion controller basically just converts USB/Ethernet signal into a parallel port signal that can be split up into the different leads
Sort of. A more appropriate term for them would be pulse generators. The control software sends low level commands to the controller, and the controller generates the step and direction pulses. In higher end controls, the "motion controller" has complete control of the machine, and the software is just an interface.
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So I am guessing that the main advantages are a motion controller creates an electrical barrier between the drivers and computer to potentially save the computer
Isolation is actually the job of the breakout board.
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Is the only drawback to a motion controller really the additional cost of the motion controller, which potentially could be partially recouped not having to buy more expensive software like Mach4?
Mach4 requires a motion controller as well.
Depending on that package you go with, you may or may not have to pay for the software.
There are a couple different types of control systems available.
There are basically two, that generate the step pulses in software, and send them to the parallel port.
Mach3, and LinuxCNC. (Mach4 can, but it's very limited.)
Then you have other controls, where the software does the trajectory and motion planning, but uses an external "controller" to generate the step pulses.
These include Planet CNC, UCCNC, Mach4, and Eding CNC. Mach3 and Linux CNC can also function this way with a motion controller.
Then you have higher end controls that do all the motion control on the board itself, and the software is more of just a front end, or GUI, as the hardware is doing all of the work.
I think that Centroids new Acron board works this way.
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(Does the one I linked not need any addtional software?)
It requires Planet CNC software, and the license is included in the price.
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Re: Which Electronics to Buy
Wow, thank you. This is extremely helpful in figuring out the intricacies of these different options. It seems like the parallel/software step pulse is more older and more prone to missing steps with Windows software interfering than with an external controller?
Is the Planet CNC software decent, or is there a better affordable controller option out there?
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Re: Which Electronics to Buy
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It seems like the parallel/software step pulse is more older and more prone to missing steps with Windows software interfering than with an external controller?
Yes, it's older, but it works perfectly fine for thousands of users.
I've never used PlanetCNC, but people seem to like it. My preference is UCCNC.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
ger21
Yes, it's older, but it works perfectly fine for thousands of users.
I've never used PlanetCNC, but people seem to like it. My preference is UCCNC.
Fair enough. UCCNC seems like a good deal for the money! Any particular price friendly controllers/BOBs you'd recommend?
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Re: Which Electronics to Buy
On a budget, I'd go with the UC400ETH, and either a C10S, or a $10 chinese breakout board. If you need to use both ports, you'll need two breakout boards.
The UC400ETH is only about $25 more than the UC100, and is a much better choice.
I'm using a UC300ETH with a UB1, but the UB1 is not cheap.
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Re: Which Electronics to Buy
Awesome, I am going to look into these quite a bit more.
For the rest of the electronics, are these components a good bang for the buck? Is there a better option?
4 Motors - https://www.automationtechnologiesin...23h2100-35-4a/
4 Drivers - https://www.automationtechnologiesin...bit-dsp-based/
1 Power Supply - https://www.automationtechnologiesin...ply/kl-350-36/
Thanks!
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Re: Which Electronics to Buy
These drives are two models up from the ones you were looking at, and are on sale for the same price.
https://www.omc-stepperonline.com/st...or-dm860t.html
With these drives, you can go with a 48V or 60V power supply, and get much better performance.
And take a look at these motors, which are cheaper, and have lower inductance.
https://www.omc-stepperonline.com/hy...s33-4008d.html
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
ger21
Oh awesome, and looking around before, I think sizing a power supply is 75% the power of all the motors? So right around 18amps is what I need?
I'm guessing there is no "cheap" nema 34 setup right? When I was looking around, it seemed like the premium was about 100% over a nema 23 setup.
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Re: Which Electronics to Buy
You can use those same drives with Nema 34's, like these:
https://www.omc-stepperonline.com/hy...s31-5504s.html
Without knowing how you are using them, they may or may not be a better choice.
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Re: Which Electronics to Buy
Oh, wow. I had assumed that anything that cheap would almost be junk based on other threads I had seen. The machine I am planning is going to be around a 48"x48" machine with an 80/20 gantry, rack and pinion with dual X motors. I just did a quick calculation of the cold rolled steel and 8020 extrusions and am at around 75 lbs for the gantry, so I am guessing the overall gantry would be just over 100lbs.
I plan to use the machine for just about everything. The majority of it will probably be foam/wood/mdf cutting, but I also would like to be able to push through aluminum occasionally. With the 80/20 design, I understand aluminum cutting would be limited in speed not by motors, but more-so by the rigidity of the machine. In general, I like to overbuild things a bit so they hold up better and are a bit future proof. If the Nema 34 can help me cut through wood and foam much quicker, then it would be a no brainer for a small upcharge.
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Re: Which Electronics to Buy
Looking again, you have to look carefully at the specs. Those Nema 34's I linked to have a 14mm shafts, while most Nema 34's have 1/2" shafts. Are you using CNCRP Rack and Pinion parts?
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Re: Which Electronics to Buy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ger21
Looking again, you have to look carefully at the specs. Those Nema 34's I linked to have a 14mm shafts, while most Nema 34's have 1/2" shafts. Are you using CNCRP Rack and Pinion parts?
Yes, I believe that Fine Line Automation still uses CNCRP rack and pinion parts. Ahh, that is unfortunate.
Looks like I would be limited to this motor if going to Nema 34: https://www.omc-stepperonline.com/hy...r-mm%5B12.7%5D
It has quite a bit more inductance than the one you previously linked, 8mH. The torque curve actually looks more linear than most of the ones I have seen before up to 1050RPM. Does the inductance make it more of a non-starter though?
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Re: Which Electronics to Buy
I'd look at this one. It's similar to the ones that CNCRP sells.
https://www.automationtechnologiesin...l34h295-43-8a/
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Re: Which Electronics to Buy
Hmm, a bit more money, but a lot more bang for the buck. Looking at the specs, it appears that these drivers still work: https://www.omc-stepperonline.com/st...or-dm860t.html
And with a 3.3mH inductance, I am looking for a 60V power supply and 16amps total assuming 2/3 of the total amperage of the motors?
So this is a decent Nema 34 setup?
4 of these: https://www.automationtechnologiesin...l34h295-43-8a/
4 of these: https://www.omc-stepperonline.com/st...or-dm860t.html
4 of these: https://www.omc-stepperonline.com/po...tage-v%5B60%5D
I am guessing that the 2/3 of the rated current of each motor doesn't work if each motor gets its own power supply right? If so, would I want to have a power supply that can provide more power than the stepper needs for head room such as this one? https://www.ebay.com/itm/400W-60V-6-...4383.l4275.c10
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Re: Which Electronics to Buy
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Re: Which Electronics to Buy
Much better to use the antec PSU's as ger21 suggests and current issues go away
Quote:
Regulated or Unregulated Power Supply
Both regulated and unregulated power supplies can be used to supply the drive. However,
unregulated power supplies are preferred due to their ability to withstand current surge. If regulated
power supplies (such as most switching supplies.) are indeed used, it is important to have large
current output rating to avoid problems like current clamp, for example using 4A supply for 3A
motor-drive operation. On the other hand, if unregulated supply is used, one may use a power supply
of lower current rating than that of motor (typically 50%~70% of motor current). The reason is that
the drive draws current from the power supply capacitor of the unregulated supply only during the
ON duration of the PWM cycle, but not during the OFF duration. Therefore, the average current
withdrawn from power supply is considerably less than motor current. For example, two 3A motors
can be well supplied by one power supply of 4A rating."
http://www.leadshine.com/UploadFile/Down/AM882m.pdf
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Re: Which Electronics to Buy
Those look nice. Is a single power supply better than a power supply for each driver? I am only asking because I can get the individual power supplies for about $70 cheaper than that monster. If its better to go with a single, then I am in.
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Re: Which Electronics to Buy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tutu
Ahh, ok. That makes sense then. I was wondering why it would be better to pay more for a single power supply than have more power available to each stepper.
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Re: Which Electronics to Buy
So, this may be a dumb question, but looking more at these motion controllers, is there any reason to get a UC400ETH over a UC300ETH-5LPT? On CNC4PC, bundled with UCCNC software its only 9 cents more to get the UC300ETH. Both would need a breakout board, but the UC300 provides 3 more parallel ports for future expansion than the UC400, or am I missing something?
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Re: Which Electronics to Buy
Imo, no.
The UC300ETH also includes analog inputs and outputs, which make it easy to connect potentiometers for feedrate and spindle override knobs.
The pricing structure almost makes it a difficult choice to even buy a UC100, when you can get so much more with the UC300ETH for only $45 more dollars.
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Re: Which Electronics to Buy
Makes sense. No idea what I would use 90% of the extra I/Os for right now, but it seems like a no brainer not to limit myself for a couple extra bucks. Speaking of bucks, I finally got a grasp of all that is needed (I think), and WOW the small stuff really adds up fast. I apparently cannot add in my head well. I know I upgraded a couple items, like changing from a Nema 23 to 34 setup, and a slightly more expensive router, but I did not expect the cost to get up and running to be double the full kit! Even dropping back to the lower router and the Nema 23 setup we talked about earlier in the thread, it looks like I am coming in right at $3,000.00. Not sure where I got the number from, but I was really expecting to be near $2,500.00 all in minus spoil board and bits. Am I out of wack on pricing anywhere below, and even more importantly am I missing anything important that would bring the price up higher?
Part |
Name |
Price |
Qty |
Extended |
Shipping |
Total |
Link |
CNC Kit |
2x4 Fineline |
$1,775 |
1 |
$1,775 |
0 |
$1,775 |
https://www.finelineautomation.com/products/2-x-4-cnc-router?taxon_id=2 |
CNC Table |
Lowes |
$200.00 |
1 |
$200.00 |
0 |
$200.00 |
lowes.com/duh |
Router Mount |
Porter Cable |
$94.75 |
1 |
$94.75 |
0 |
$94.75 |
https://www.finelineautomation.com/products/porter-cable-690-892-spindle-mount?taxon_id=51 |
Router |
Porter Cable 892 |
$177.99 |
1 |
$177.99 |
$10.68 |
$188.67 |
https://www.amazon.com/PORTER-CABLE-892-2-1-4-Horsepower-Router/dp/B0000DCBK0 |
UCCNC Screenshot |
CNCwoodworker |
$25.00 |
1 |
$25.00 |
$0.00 |
$25.00 |
http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html |
Power Supply |
PS-10N63R5R12 |
$180.00 |
1 |
$180.00 |
$19.00 |
$199.00 |
http://www.antekinc.com/ps-10n63-1000w-63v-power-supply/ |
Motor Drivers |
DM860T |
$39.93 |
4 |
$159.72 |
$9.42 |
$169.14 |
https://www.omc-stepperonline.com/stepper-motor-driver/digital-stepper-driver-24-72a-18-80vac-or-36-110vdc-for-nema-34-motor-dm860t.html |
Stepper Motors |
KL34H295-43-8A |
$79.00 |
4 |
$316.00 |
$25.86 |
$341.86 |
https://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/nema-34/kl34h295-43-8a/ |
Motion Controller |
UC300ETH-5LPT |
$209.00 |
1 |
$209.00 |
$11.75 |
$220.75 |
https://cnc4pc.com/uc300eth-ethernet-motion-controller-b.html |
Software |
UCCNC |
Above |
1 |
Above |
Aove |
Above |
Above |
Cable from UC300 to C10 |
ID26 to DB25 |
$4.50 |
1 |
$4.50 |
Above |
$4.50 |
https://cnc4pc.com/idc26-db25-lph-26-pin-to-db-25-ribbon-cable.html |
Breakout Board |
C10S |
$28.04 |
1 |
$28.04 |
Above |
$28.04 |
https://cnc4pc.com/c10s-bi-directional-parallel-port-interface-card.html |
Stepper Wire |
18 Gauge/ft 20'/axis |
$0.95 |
72 |
$68.40 |
0 |
$68.40 |
https://www.automationtechnologiesinc.com/products-page/cnc-parts/4-conductor-18ga-shielded-motor-wires/ |
5% For Misc Bits |
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$165.76 |
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$3,480.87 |
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Re: Which Electronics to Buy
What are you going to put the electonics in?
Home and Limit switches? And more wiring for them? E-Chain for the wires and cables?
I'd seriously consider spending another $130 for a spindle.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/FOUR-BEARIN...IAAOSw1vlUtyPk
But then you'll want a breakout board with spindle speed control.
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Re: Which Electronics to Buy
Yeah, the case I was planning to rig something up from an electrical enclosure from lowes, but that also costs a bit of money, and doesn't really have any means for airflow in it.
E-chain, I am hoping to have a buddy 3d print a set out for me to get me started, unless I can find a cheap source of them.
Are home and limit switches separate entities? The threads I've read make it seem like they are the same switch, just set up through the controller differently.
Whew, another upsell from my original thoughts! Haha. Are there any cheap breakout boards to handle this?
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Re: Which Electronics to Buy
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Are home and limit switches separate entities?
They can be, but most people use the same switch for both.
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Whew, another upsell from my original thoughts! Haha. Are there any cheap breakout boards to handle this?
https://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Axis-CNC-...UAAOSwKtlWqCrJ
Note that you'll need a 12V-24V power supply for this breakout board, but any small cheap one will work.
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Re: Which Electronics to Buy
Sorry for the delay. Busy week! I actually planned to get the power supply you suggest with an additional 5v and 12v output. Seemed cheap enough to add and a cleaner installation.
Dumb question, is that breakout board replacing the C10S, or in addition to the C10s just to control the spindle speed? On a related note, I should be picking up the kit next Friday, so I guess it is time to start ordering all the other parts!
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Re: Which Electronics to Buy
Quote:
Dumb question, is that breakout board replacing the C10S, or in addition to the C10s just to control the spindle speed?
Either. Depends on how many inputs and output you need.
Note that the chinese board will only work on 2 of the 5 ports on the UC300, but the C10 will work on all 5.
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Re: Which Electronics to Buy
Personally I'd go for AM882 for my drivers and ditch the nema 34's for a 3nm nema 23 that frame isn't strong enough to take advantage of the nema 34 extra torque and the 34 will just be slow.
I also went for a water cooled spindle
1. Noise, air cooled spindles are very very loud.
2. More control over speed, air cooled spindles need to be spun at a certain speed to keep them cool, water cooled don't have this issue.
3. I have a lot of experience with water cooling so it was a non issue.
It's good to see you're going with a proper unregulated PSU, pair this with the AM882's and 3nm nema 23's and you'll have a super smooth performance and really no need for nema 34's.
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Re: Which Electronics to Buy
Quote:
1. Noise, air cooled spindles are very very loud.
I have two air cooled spindles, and they are not loud at all. At 15,000 rpm and below, I'd say that they are no louder than a stepper motor.
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Re: Which Electronics to Buy
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tutu
Personally I'd go for AM882 for my drivers and ditch the nema 34's for a 3nm nema 23 that frame isn't strong enough to take advantage of the nema 34 extra torque and the 34 will just be slow.
I also went for a water cooled spindle
1. Noise, air cooled spindles are very very loud.
2. More control over speed, air cooled spindles need to be spun at a certain speed to keep them cool, water cooled don't have this issue.
3. I have a lot of experience with water cooling so it was a non issue.
It's good to see you're going with a proper unregulated PSU, pair this with the AM882's and 3nm nema 23's and you'll have a super smooth performance and really no need for nema 34's.
I was under the impression that this kit was strong enough for the Nema 34 setup. I mean it is a $500 extra to go to the 34s, if it offers me no faster cutting then, it would make sense to stick with the nema 23 setup. Do you own this machine, or know anyone disappointed with their 34 setup?
Quote:
I have two air cooled spindles, and they are not loud at all. At 15,000 rpm and below, I'd say that they are no louder than a stepper motor.
That's good to know. The quieter the better. I may be able to talk the wife into moving it out of the garage and into a room in the basement!
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Re: Which Electronics to Buy
Are the rack and pinion drives on that machine the CNCRP Standard, or PRO. If they are the standard, then I'd go with Nema 23.
If they are the Pro models, then I'd go Nema 34, and consider these motors.
https://www.automationtechnologiesin...-single-shaft/
These have more torque at higher rpm, and will potentially be faster. And, they are a bit cheaper.
Quote:
That's good to know. The quieter the better. I may be able to talk the wife into moving it out of the garage and into a room in the basement!
Depending on what you are doing, cutting noise will often be substantially louder than any machine noise.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
ger21
Are the rack and pinion drives on that machine the CNCRP Standard, or PRO. If they are the standard, then I'd go with Nema 23.
If they are the Pro models, then I'd go Nema 34, and consider these motors.
https://www.automationtechnologiesin...-single-shaft/
These have more torque at higher rpm, and will potentially be faster. And, they are a bit cheaper.
Depending on what you are doing, cutting noise will often be substantially louder than any machine noise.
This is the only option on their site, I'm guessing that it's the standard version? I know I saw Nate made a post about updating his design, not sure if it is departing from the CNCRP line design though.
https://www.finelineautomation.com/products/rack-and-pinion-drive?taxon_id=38
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Re: Which Electronics to Buy
Looks like he may be making his own? Regardless, it says 3:1 reduction, which is the same as the pro.
I think those 465oz Nema 34's would be a good option, and be $80 cheaper than the larger ones. With more power than the Nema 23's.
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Re: Which Electronics to Buy
Fair enough. Oh, these are a 1.65mH as well. That means I would be good with a 48v 16amp power supply instead of the 60v then right?