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2 Attachment(s)
Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?
Hi
I bought the air cooled Hunyang combo from Ebay and it worked great at first.
I had it cutting a slab of wood and came back about 45 min later and the spindle was stopped. The wood was wrecked and the machine was moving.
Somewhere it was suggested to check the 4 poles on the spindle itself with an ohmeter, and I found that across ground to pins 1-2 was fine but pin 3 registered as an open circuit. I have gone to the technical support in Hong Kong where they said they would replace and sent them a video/pictures attached for them to make a decision.
Any guesses as to what happened?
When it was cutting normally and I went away it was drawing less than 2 amps and running 12,000 rpm.
Attachment 426908
Attachment 426910
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Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
justCNCit
Hi
I bought the air cooled Hunyang combo from Ebay and it worked great at first.
I had it cutting a slab of wood and came back about 45 min later and the spindle was stopped. The wood was wrecked and the machine was moving.
Somewhere it was suggested to check the 4 poles on the spindle itself with an ohmeter, and I found that across ground to pins 1-2 was fine but pin 3 registered as an open circuit. I have gone to the technical support in Hong Kong where they said they would replace and sent them a video/pictures attached for them to make a decision.
Any guesses as to what happened?
When it was cutting normally and I went away it was drawing less than 2 amps and running 12,000 rpm.
Attachment 426908
Attachment 426910
With wiring like what I see, I would not be surprised that something like this can happen, You have not used Shielded cable and most likely don't have a Ground from the spindle to the VFD Drive
12,000 is also most like to slow for your air cooled spindle with only 2A it would not have much torque and would over heat very quickly it the cutter was loaded up
Things to know more about wiring and drive Parameters
Over load at low speed most likely caused your problem helped by bad wiring installation
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Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?
Most of these spindles are supplied and used unshielded and last forever, I wouldn't worry about that justCNCit unless you're getting interference issues (usually the controller fritzing out and movement stopping rather than the spindle). 12000RPM is also well above the usual danger zone for low RPM and cooling which is usually closer to about 6000RPM. Unless you're loading to the point where it's regularly stalling.
I'd put this one down to the usual dodgy QA letting through something with a bad solder joint internally and go with the replacement. Just in case, though, when the new one arrives and you start this job up again I'd be keeping a close, close eye on the temperature of the spindle through the first couple of runs. Maybe even lash out a couple of bucks for a cheap thermocouple and temp display to tape to the inside of the spindle cap so you can see if owt's going awry without putting your hand in the way of a moving machine to feel it.
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Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dharmic
Most of these spindles are supplied and used unshielded and last forever, I wouldn't worry about that justCNCit unless you're getting interference issues (usually the controller fritzing out and movement stopping rather than the spindle). 12000RPM is also well above the usual danger zone for low RPM and cooling which is usually closer to about 6000RPM. Unless you're loading to the point where it's regularly stalling.
I'd put this one down to the usual dodgy QA letting through something with a bad solder joint internally and go with the replacement. Just in case, though, when the new one arrives and you start this job up again I'd be keeping a close, close eye on the temperature of the spindle through the first couple of runs. Maybe even lash out a couple of bucks for a cheap thermocouple and temp display to tape to the inside of the spindle cap so you can see if owt's going awry without putting your hand in the way of a moving machine to feel it.
You seem to be someone talking with no experience with these spindles and Drives, most air cooled spindles like this have a much higher minimum RPM range, the max Amps is normally 8.5 Amps so at 2 Amps it was not where you would want to be using it
The wiring is also very important, if you check the code requirement in your country, you can't install a VFD unless it is EMI compliant
His wiring the way it has been done is a electrical code violation, in the NA
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Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?
I run my air cooled spindle at 12,000 rpm all day nothing happens, the min speed is set at 9,000 rpm. Grounding since its a 3 phase has zero to do with it as the ground is for protection or equipment ground when something goes wrong. Shielding or lack of, why would that make the motor burn out?? VFD Parameters set wrong, very well could be, mactec54 can handle that and I would sure check before I installed another spindle. I will agree, the wiring is nothing I would be proud of.
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Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mactec54
You seem to be someone talking with no experience with these spindles and Drives...
Sigh. Whatever, mactec54. I'm not interested in fuelling your righteous rampages any more.
justCNCit you have two opinions. One, both or neither may be complete fantasy. One, both or neither may be more technically accurate but practically irrelevant. Like with everything else on the interwebs, up to you to filter through the noise (pity there's no shielding wire for that!) and make your own decision.
WMGEORGE YOU OBVISLY HAVE NO IDEAS ABOT THESE KINDS OF THING EITHER FANCY MEKING SUCH CLAMS THEY NOT LEGAL!!!1! :D
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Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dharmic
Sigh. Whatever, mactec54. I'm not interested in fuelling your righteous rampages any more.
justCNCit you have two opinions. One, both or neither may be complete fantasy. One, both or neither may be more technically accurate but practically irrelevant. Like with everything else on the interwebs, up to you to filter through the noise (pity there's no shielding wire for that!) and make your own decision.
WMGEORGE YOU OBVISLY HAVE NO IDEAS ABOT THESE KINDS OF THING EITHER FANCY MEKING SUCH CLAMS THEY NOT LEGAL!!!1! :D
Huh? I thought they taught spelling in Australia? It looks like you also failed reading skills.
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Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?
Jokes man, I agree entirely with you. That line was mashed out to save mactec the bother. In exactly the correct spelling for "angry old man foaming at the mouth in rage at the world for not agreeing with him" rather than civilised English or American.
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Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dharmic
Jokes man, I agree entirely with you. That line was mashed out to save mactec the bother. In exactly the correct spelling for "angry old man foaming at the mouth in rage at the world for not agreeing with him" rather than civilised English or American.
Even in your country this wiring would not pass code, so you obvious don't know what you are looking at or anything about wiring (wedge)
The main Power supply cable looks like 15A may be 20A rated Romex cable this is used for in the wall for House wiring :)
You don't use a Neutral white wire as a Hot 120V in his case without it being covered at both ends with red or black then on the other side 3Phase white and Green Ground are being used as Hot wires :nono:
Take a very good look and you will see 3 Cables connected to the in/out Power Terminals there should only be 2 Cables ( 1 240v Single Phase ) for the input Power Supply and ( 1 3Phase) to the Spindle
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Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wmgeorge
I run my air cooled spindle at 12,000 rpm all day nothing happens, the min speed is set at 9,000 rpm. Grounding since its a 3 phase has zero to do with it as the ground is for protection or equipment ground when something goes wrong. Shielding or lack of, why would that make the motor burn out?? VFD Parameters set wrong, very well could be, mactec54 can handle that and I would sure check before I installed another spindle. I will agree, the wiring is nothing I would be proud of.
Not all these spindles are created equal some have a minimum RPM of 18,000 his could well of been one of them we don't have the spindle spec's
A Ground is very important for these spindles as they can be damaged by the EMI when they don't use a shielded cable, if they have a Ground wire the EMI and Rotor Voltage will use the Ground wire and save the spindle
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Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?
EMI and RFI can raise havoc with control wiring to the VFD and other parts of the system, but will never damage a motor.
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2 Attachment(s)
Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wmgeorge
EMI and RFI can raise havoc with control wiring to the VFD and other parts of the system, but will never damage a motor.
Really you should keep these thoughts to your self, as I can show you a photo of a burnt up spindle caused by back EMF and Rotor Voltage, EMI can have the same affect but normally wipes out electronics as you say
Most VFD manufactures give you guide line as to how there VFD Drive should be wired and what to use for cable, a snip below from a VFD Drive manufacture
His spindle as I said most likely stalled and went into over voltage / over current and failed
The wiring is so badly done it had to be part of this thread not necessarily the cause of the problem but did not help
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Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?
Really you should keep these thoughts to your self, as I can show you a photo of a burnt up spindle caused by back EMF and Rotor Voltage, EMI can have the same affect but normally wipes out electronics as you say
I am waiting for proof. BTW the OP said he had an open winding, not burnt out motor. Its EMI, not back EMF we are discussing?
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Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wmgeorge
Really you should keep these thoughts to your self, as I can show you a photo of a burnt up spindle caused by back EMF and Rotor Voltage, EMI can have the same affect but normally wipes out electronics as you say
I am waiting for proof.
It does not have to burn up like the photo, to get an open winding, a winding can poof just like a fuse
I posted a photo of the proof, this is what happens when back EMF is in affect, a stalled spindle you get a very large back EMF affect, if these systems had a Braking Resistor it would absorb most of the back EMF and save the spindle and VFD, how many do you need there is usually at least ( 1 ) a week this happens too
When you see an over voltage fault you know that Back EMF has caused this, this only shows up on quality VFD Drives as a Fault most cheap drive don't have a DC bus voltage sensing circuit so can't protect the drive or spindle when this happens
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Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?
Wow, you guys still at it:)
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Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?
He is confusing EMI with EMF and claiming unshielded wires to the spindle caused this motor to burn out!!!
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Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?
The motor was pretty hot when running but the aluminum blocks acted as a good heat sink. Warm to the touch. My wiring was hastily done, unshielded and wasn't sure on the proper guage, however the terminals on the drive are pretty small anyway. I usually run things for a while and go back to fix it properly once I've identified other bugs... I don't give a damn about code in this situation.
I think I'm screwed because that's what I sent to the manufacturer for warranty purposes.
What options might be next
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Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
justCNCit
The motor was pretty hot when running but the aluminum blocks acted as a good heat sink. Warm to the touch. My wiring was hastily done, unshielded and wasn't sure on the proper guage, however the terminals on the drive are pretty small anyway. I usually run things for a while and go back to fix it properly once I've identified other bugs... I don't give a damn about code in this situation.
I think I'm screwed because that's what I sent to the manufacturer for warranty purposes.
What options might be next
If you sent them a picture of that sorry, crappy wiring your screwed. But Mac is 100% correct you need to check the spec's of the spindle motor you buy
and make sure your drive parameters are correct. He can help you on that, I can not. I do not install cheap Chinese VDF's.
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Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?
I went thru all the settings and was pretty happy while it was running so now we go an adventure pull it apart like should have done to begin with, and not rely on foreign manufacturers.
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Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
justCNCit
I went thru all the settings and was pretty happy while it was running so now we go an adventure pull it apart like should have done to begin with, and not rely on foreign manufacturers.
Post a picture of the windings.
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?
Not sure how to get inside as yet. Looks like there is no wire going to the ground pin on the terminal so far. I undid some hex bolts on the bottom not sure how it comes apart.
Attachment 427066
the hex bolts on the output end don't even clear the rotating parts.
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Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?
Never is a wire to the Ground pin #4 Chinese seem to forget. I took the picture into an editing program and lighted it a lot, it looks black but no windings??
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Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?
A little lost. The windings should be in the motor body correct? This picture is just the connector cap. I'm not sure how to get the motor housing apart. Best I can tell a special tool is needed on the chuck end.
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Over current or voltage running at 12k rpm drawing 2 amps? I was taking a 1/8” depth of cut using a half inch carbide ball mill at 120 IPM. Would that really overload the spindle cedar wood
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Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?
I stripped a working hy 2.2kw water cooled spindle recently to get a close look. Not something i would buy!
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
justCNCit
Not sure how to get inside as yet. Looks like there is no wire going to the ground pin on the terminal so far. I undid some hex bolts on the bottom not sure how it comes apart.
Attachment 427066
the hex bolts on the output end don't even clear the rotating parts.
That is normal for these spindles not to have the Ground connected, you are expected to connect it which almost all spindle users check this before they run it, they normally connect it with a ring terminal to where one of the cover mounting screws go, remove a piece of the plastic from the cover to clear the Grounding terminal and you are done
They are easy to take apart the nut / bolt on the back, it is left hand thread, and yes you need custom made wrenches so you don't damage any of the parts
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Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wmgeorge
He is confusing EMI with EMF and claiming unshielded wires to the spindle caused this motor to burn out!!!
No confusion here, that is why they install Braking Resistor to absorb the Back EMF, it would help if you read my posts, I said the spindle most likely was damaged from stalling, wiring was secondary which did not help the health of his spindle
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Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
justCNCit
I don't give a damn about code in this situation.
You got lucky that you where not touching your machine when it failed, or you could of been electrocuted, that is why they have electrical codes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
justCNCit
I think I'm screwed because that's what I sent to the manufacturer for warranty purposes.
There is no warranty with any of these spindles, in most cases they ask you to send it back which will cost you more than buying a new spindle
Quote:
Originally Posted by
justCNCit
What options might be next
Buy a New Spindle, you VFD Drive may be damaged also
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Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mactec54
No confusion here, that is why they install Braking Resistor to absorb the Back EMF, it would help if you read my posts, I said the spindle most likely was damaged from stalling, wiring was secondary which did not help the health of his spindle
Braking resistors are used.... well they are only used when braking. Not back EMF and we were talking about EMI? FYI and others .... just one reference. https://www.fortressresistors.com/pr...ing-resistors/
This is also to educate about EMI > https://kebblog.com/electromagnetic-interference-vfds/
By the way I agree with Mac, your screwed. Buy a new one from a USA vender and get a new VFD they recommend as a package deal. Or I have used Automation Tech for the the spindle motor and purchased a Japanese Hitachi drive from a USA vender. I got two instruction manuals with the drive (and DVD) and a 800 number to call If I had questions. Sure it cost maybe $100 or so more than the Chinese made ones or a knock off of a good Chinese drive.
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Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wmgeorge
Only EMI since when, you need to know and see the whole picture not just one part of it
None of the information you posted applies to a 400Hz spindle they only know what works for a 50 /60Hz motor, you are in a different place when you start dealing with a 400Hz 24,000 RPM spindle the back EMF if the drive DC bus capacitors can't handle it they are smoked, if the DC bus capacitors have a over voltage sensor then it blocks the over voltage then makes IGBTs fail
Breaking Resistors are used to absorb this Back EMF and protect the VFD Drive
Over Voltage VFD Drive Fault is caused by Back EMF you see these Drive Faults posted on here all the time
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
mactec54
Only EMI since when, you need to know and see the whole picture not just one part of it
None of the information you posted applies to a 400Hz spindle they only know what works for a 50 /60Hz motor, you are in a different place when you start dealing with a 400Hz 24,000 RPM spindle the back EMF if the drive DC bus capacitors can't handle it they are smoked, if the DC bus capacitors have a over voltage sensor then it blocks the over voltage then makes IGBTs fail
Breaking Resistors are used to absorb this Back EMF and protect the VFD Drive
Over Voltage VFD Drive Fault is caused by Back EMF you see these Drive Faults posted on here all the time
Your answers are typical for you, made up. The viewers here can do their own search for EMI and back EMF and get the truth. Braking resistors are only used when stopping the motor.
So your contending that a un-shielded supply power cord from the VFD to the Spindle motor caused the motor to fail?
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Why would it have shown continuity between ground and the other poles if disconnected ground. Will check tonight
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Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
justCNCit
Why would it have shown continuity between ground and the other poles if disconnected ground. Will check tonight
Since your ground pin is not hooked up to the metal on the frame I don't understand. If you get any reading to motor frame ground from a winding its bad. Winding to winding should read the same, pretty low 1 or 2 ohms.
No reading from winding to winding= bad. Your not touching the meter leads with your fingers are you?
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Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wmgeorge
Your answers are typical for you, made up. The viewers here can do their own search for EMI and back EMF and get the truth. Braking resistors are only used when stopping the motor.
So your contending that a un-shielded supply power cord from the VFD to the Spindle motor caused the motor to fail?
That is what you are saying it is not what I said
What is happening when a Breaking Resistor is installed, please tell everyone your uneducated guess
Electromotive force (EMF) refers to the voltage generated by a spinning motor. Measuring this voltage in order to determine the rotational speed of a motor is commonly called Back-EMF since the voltage tends to "push-back" against the circuit driving current into a motor's windings.
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Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
justCNCit
Why would it have shown continuity between ground and the other poles if disconnected ground. Will check tonight
It means you have a short somewhere
When you test you should check like this, when checking for a shorted Pin check to the body of the spindle not the unconnected 4th Ground Pin
Pin 1 to Pin 2=
Pin 2 to Pin 3=
Pin 3 to Pin 1=
Then check all to Ground the spindle body
IF you have a short to Pin 4 then you have a wiring problem in the plug, or the plug is damaged
This is the most basic of tests to do but will give an idea of what is happening
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Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mactec54
That is what you are saying it is not what I said
What is happening when a Breaking Resistor is installed, please tell everyone your uneducated guess
Electromotive force (EMF) refers to the voltage generated by a spinning motor. Measuring this voltage in order to determine the rotational speed of a motor is commonly called Back-EMF since the voltage tends to "push-back" against the circuit driving current into a motor's windings.
Back EMF reduces the voltage and therefore current in the motor windings. A motor has coils turning inside magnetic fields, and a coil turning inside a magnetic field induces an emf. This emf, known as the back emf, acts against the applied voltage that's causing the motor to spin in the first place, and reduces the current flowing through the coils of the motor. Since it reduces current flow, how can it burn the motor out??
Once again a Braking resistor on a VFD can NOT be in the circuit when the motor is running, its impossible! Only used when stopping the motor. This applies for all VFD's not just 50/60 Hz but all! When is Dynamic Braking Resistor used in VFD?
I am sure the readers here can figure this all out with a few simple Searches. Try https://www.google.com/search?client...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
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Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wmgeorge
[SIZE=4]Back EMF reduces the voltage and therefore current in the motor windings. A motor has coils turning inside magnetic fields, and a coil turning inside a magnetic field induces an emf. This emf, known as the back emf, acts against the applied voltage that's causing the motor to spin in the first place, and reduces the current flowing through the coils of the motor. Since it reduces current flow, how can it burn the motor out??
The first part that you where able to copy from some where that is correct, the below video will help you understand what happens when a motor stalls and has no Back EMF, this is what burns out motors
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wmgeorge
Once again a Braking resistor on a VFD can NOT be in the circuit when the motor is running
No one said it was
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wmgeorge
I am sure the readers here can figure this all out with a few simple Searches.
Yes I'm sure they can, some will already know this from there highschool physics on motor operation
Very basic Highschool Physics here is a video just for you, this demonstrates what happens when a motor stalls and why it fails :wave:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=5mf4NmmLWnE
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Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
justCNCit
Why would it have shown continuity between ground and the other poles if disconnected ground. Will check tonight
I hope you where able to check your motor, I would do the check from the back side of the plug, I had a thought that seeing you where getting some odd reading the motor may not be damaged, and it could be just the wiring of the plug that is the problem as others have had this problem as well with plug wiring being faulty, and the plugs in general being bad so worth a good look at
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Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mactec54
The first part that you where able to copy from some where that is correct, the below video will help you understand what happens when a motor stalls and has no Back EMF, this is what burns out motors
No one said it was, but see my post #27 above for details on what I posted.
mactec54 posted on #27 No confusion here, that is why they install Braking Resistor to absorb the Back EMF
Mac I am done posting on this Thread, you change the Subject to get attention away from your mistakes. The Readers here on CNC Zone can sort it out if they read the info and links I have put up and ignore your errors. Even this might help you understand > https://forums.mikeholt.com/forum/ac...stor-operation
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2 Attachment(s)
Re: Chinese 2.2kw spindle burned out?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wmgeorge
mactec54 posted on #27 No confusion here, that is why they install Braking Resistor to absorb the Back EMF
Mac I am done posting on this Thread, you change the Subject to get attention away from your mistakes. The Readers here on CNC Zone can sort it out if they read the info and links I have put up and ignore your errors.
No mistakes with what I posted, the Highschool Physics video tells you the same thing :)
What I posted is correct, when a motor is running normally and you have a Braking Resistor installed the first voltage it will see is Back EMF with any sudden change in speed, so you have no understanding of how it works (wedge),
A Braking Resistor is not only to help stop a motor fast, but to protect the VFD Drive from over Voltage spikes with normal running, ( decelerating or a stall Etc.) The Back-EMF from the Motor is being monitored by the VFD all the time :)