Yet Another LabVolt 5300 Lathe (Plus a 5400 Mill)

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01-05-2014, 08:04 AM
jbaz

Yet Another LabVolt 5300 Lathe (Plus a 5400 Mill)

Hey all, long time lurker, first time poster...

I have been using a manual mill and lathe and for a long time wanted to get into CNC and was considering converting my manuals buy I wanted to do something on a hobby scale to start. I was able to get a Labvolt 5300 Lathe and 5400 Mill that are in mint shape (lathe looks like it wasn't ever used, mill maybe a handful of times?) for a few hundred bucks for the pair and I couldn't say no because I felt like the machines without the CNC were worth more. I did know going in that they had proprietary hardware/software involved but I was naively optimistic I could find a hack to get it running as is or maybe find an official PC for cheap that would work with them just as a way to get my feet wet in CNC without a lot of cash and time.

These have been sitting in my shop for a long time and I really want to to get them running, and figured the lathe would be the easiest to start with since it is just the 2 axises to deal with. I searched and saw a lot of inquiries about getting these particular machines to run without the proprietary hardware but not much in the way of info from people who have converted them. Ideally, I was looking to take a working "recipe" and use that since I already feel over my head after looking at the electronics and wiring on it as it is.

I am a programmer by trade, so getting into the troubleshooting and documentation is not what is holding me back, but the extent of my CNC experience (and not much further in terms of electronics) goes is building and running an Ardunio based RepRap 3d Printer... and so I think I'm a bit overwhelmed on where to start to take it one step at a time.

I reached out to a guy who had a video on Youtube of his conversion working and I could only get very sparse info in terms of what parts he bought, but nothing in the way of troubleshooting or issues he had to overcome. For instance, it looks like he is using the DC motor controller that came with the Labvolt but he mentioned he had to install the CNC4PC Variable Speed Controller and I have no idea how those work together. I understand the BOB is replacing the OEM board, and it appears I'm fine using the OEM power supply, drivers and motors... and from the pics he provided it appears the only aftermarket stuff he bought was the BOB, Safety Charge Pump, Speed Control and an optional Index Pulse Card for accurate threading. But since I don't have any docs (and I don't think any exist since this is not supposed to be something serviced outside the factory) I don't even know what all of the components are or how they are wired.

I guess my question is anyone on here had success with the 5400 lathe (or Mill for that matter) that wouldn't mind sharing what setup (parts/config) they went with and any noteworthy information as far as the troubleshooting or pitfalls relating to frying something or non-conventional wiring/pin assignments? That, or just any advice in general or tutorials that involve similar conversions/builds that might be a good place to start getting more comfortable with what I'm about to do?

Thanks in advance!
-Jay
01-06-2014, 03:09 AM
jbaz

I forgot to mention, the machines do work through manual mode by using the control panel on the front. So I know the components are functional and I'm working with a known quantity, which is helpful because if I didn't even know the drivers and motors were good it would add another layer of troubleshooting to the mix.

After looking at it all again I think I am mainly overwhelmed by the shear magnitude of the wiring in there and it is hard to trace right now because it is all tidy and sleeved. I think I just need to take it one step at a time.

Here are my main concerns...
1) Should I go ahead and spend the extra money for an opto-isolated board, especially given my "newbie" status? The board in the example I was the cheaper non-isolated board from CNC4PC.
2) The chopper drives on these... anyone who has done this or familiar with them know if the wiring and settings are common to any others?
3) On the only example I've seen for this conversion he is using the Factory DC Motor Controller but to control spindle speed used a Variable Speed Control board from CNC4PC to connect to it and I'm not sure if it works the same way using 0-10v signal. I guess it must... but I hate guessing when I have such little experience.

Thanks!
01-06-2014, 07:15 AM
jbaz

I traced the mess of wires and made some discoveries. I was able to find the 0-10v on the motor control which was what I was concerned about linking up with the Spindle Control. I am unsure if I should go with PWM or Step/Dir for my spindle control though.

Either way wow that I have that squared away and confirmed my controller power supply is putting out 5v I think I'm ready pop in the new components. The only thing I am not familiar with is how to properly wire the breakout board for the right pin assignments, but I assume it can be arbitrary and done through the software. I just need to do some more searching to make sure I know what wire does what. The other thing, which probably isn't such a big deal at the moment, is getting the limit switches setup. The ones on these are the magnetic style. I think I will leave them disconnected until I can get everything working.

I think I've been answering my own questions but I'm still wondering about the BOB, and if I should spend more for isolated board or not. Also, would it be better to just buy a more expensive all-in-one board (charge safety pump, spindle control included) or is there an advantage to keeping separate... such as in the event you toast the BOB you don't have to replace a more expensive board if those are isolated?
01-07-2014, 06:16 AM
wizard

Pictures would be nice.

First let me say I know nothing at all about these specific machines. The last time I've even heard reference to the company LabVolt was back in high school forty years ago. That wasn't a CNC machine either.

However given that CNC machines all work on similar principles. You just need to find out how all the bits and pieces are tied together.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbaz

I traced the mess of wires and made some discoveries. I was able to find the 0-10v on the motor control which was what I was concerned about linking up with the Spindle Control. I am unsure if I should go with PWM or Step/Dir for my spindle control though.

If the spindle motor takes a 0-10 volt reference signal then that is what you need to supply. That would be a variable voltage analog signal. Step/dir and PWM modulation are entirely different forms of of reference signals. So ideally you want a CNC controller board with an analog output signal in the zero to ten volt range.

Quote:

Either way wow that I have that squared away and confirmed my controller power supply is putting out 5v I think I'm ready pop in the new components. The only thing I am not familiar with is how to properly wire the breakout board for the right pin assignments, but I assume it can be arbitrary and done through the software.

Do you even know what the Z and X motors are? They could be steppers, DC servos, AC servos or something different again. Until you decipher all of this you can't really even think about a break out board.

Quote:

I just need to do some more searching to make sure I know what wire does what. The other thing, which probably isn't such a big deal at the moment, is getting the limit switches setup. The ones on these are the magnetic style. I think I will leave them disconnected until I can get everything working.

You could do that but you could also look at it the other way and see the switches as the first things you need to get working. Why? To protect the machine as you work at discovering how everything works.

Quote:

I think I've been answering my own questions but I'm still wondering about the BOB, and if I should spend more for isolated board or not.

Isolated boards are not a bad idea when working with a lot of unknowns.

Quote:

Also, would it be better to just buy a more expensive all-in-one board (charge safety pump, spindle control included) or is there an advantage to keeping separate... such as in the event you toast the BOB you don't have to replace a more expensive board if those are isolated?

On small machines like this I see no reason not to do everything on one board. That is if you find a board with the right outputs capable of driving your axis amps. This is especially the case with regards to the lathe which should run fine with a two axis controller for basic control. An Arduino with GRBL may do the job depending upon what your expectations are and what exactly the electronics expect control wise.

Given all of that I think the first thing you need to consider doing is to update the motors and drives to known devices so that you can properly engineer the rest of the machine. With modern devices you will likely get better performance too. Just a thought.
01-08-2014, 12:42 AM
jbaz

Thanks for the reply. I actually feel like I got it all figured out. I was able to trace the wires and labeled them all. I have my 5v PSU leads, my 12v PSU leads... so that is all good. The power to the drivers are already hooked up so I don't have to worry about that. I have found the 5v +/- wires and the Step and Dir wires that input to each driver. I have also identified the 0-10v wires for the DC motor control.

So I went ahead and bought a C10 BOB from CNC4PC along with their Variable Speed Control (uses Step/Dir instead of PWM) and a Charge Safety Pump (optional, but just to be safe). I have identified all the wires to hook up to control the drivers and spindle so I think I'm all good to get it working. I am going to use the existing e-stop because it is already setup to kill spindle power and it also has a separate circuit that can cut power to the Enable pin on the BOB and trigger the input.

I also bought a opto-isolated Chinese board on ebay for $15. This one has the PWM speed control built in. It was only $15 so if it actually works it I will use it on the other machine which will be great to be only $15 into the machine and have a working CNC mill for $170 out the door, so fingers crossed.

The only thing I am not certain about at the moment is the limits because I haven't fully traced them. I do know they are Normally Open circuits that are closed when they are tripped. They are the magnet type contact switches.

On the factory config they have limits on all axises at both the max and min travel for each. My boards will not have enough inputs to wire them separately and I'm not sure if Mach is smart to know which direction should be limited if I wire them in parallel. Meaning, I could put both X++ and X-- on the same input, and if the signal is tripped while Mach was moving it in a certain direction it knows to not disable the other direction also? If not, I'm not sure I can use the ++ limits... I will just have to use the -- limits only and use soft limits for the ++ (aka max travel)?

Other than that I think I have it figured out and the main thing I will need to learn is how to prep the machine for running g-code because I've never done it with a mill or lathe, just a 3d printer. So I will need to learn to use Mach and the homing and then I think I'll be able to do my first test.
01-09-2014, 01:31 AM
wizard

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbaz

Thanks for the reply. I actually feel like I got it all figured out. I was able to trace the wires and labeled them all. I have my 5v PSU leads, my 12v PSU leads... so that is all good. The power to the drivers are already hooked up so I don't have to worry about that. I have found the 5v +/- wires and the Step and Dir wires that input to each driver. I have also identified the 0-10v wires for the DC motor control.

This is good to hear! It you have gotten this far I'd strongly recommend drawing schematics that you can refer to in the future. Start at the subassembly level showing I/O and the like. Nothing fancy is required, you can draw this on scrap cardboard for all I care but you need to have the reference in the future when something goes wrong.

Quote:

So I went ahead and bought a C10 BOB from CNC4PC along with their Variable Speed Control (uses Step/Dir instead of PWM) and a Charge Safety Pump (optional, but just to be safe). I have identified all the wires to hook up to control the drivers and spindle so I think I'm all good to get it working. I am going to use the existing e-stop because it is already setup to kill spindle power and it also has a separate circuit that can cut power to the Enable pin on the BOB and trigger the input.

Sounds good!

Quote:

I also bought a opto-isolated Chinese board on ebay for $15. This one has the PWM speed control built in. It was only $15 so if it actually works it I will use it on the other machine which will be great to be only $15 into the machine and have a working CNC mill for $170 out the door, so fingers crossed.

Doesn't sound too good at all! The really cheap Chinese stuff has a bad reputation. I have no idea what this item is like but be prepared to source a real amp more suitable for the job. By the way high quality Chinese stuff does exist but don't expect tiny prices.

Quote:

The only thing I am not certain about at the moment is the limits because I haven't fully traced them. I do know they are Normally Open circuits that are closed when they are tripped. They are the magnet type contact switches.

If they are reed type switches you could wire them in parallel. I really prefer an input per switch but hey if you are limited in inputs don't worry about it.

Quote:

On the factory config they have limits on all axises at both the max and min travel for each. My boards will not have enough inputs to wire them separately and I'm not sure if Mach is smart to know which direction should be limited if I wire them in parallel. Meaning, I could put both X++ and X-- on the same input, and if the signal is tripped while Mach was moving it in a certain direction it knows to not disable the other direction also? If not, I'm not sure I can use the ++ limits... I will just have to use the -- limits only and use soft limits for the ++ (aka max travel)?

There are a number of ways to wire inputs for limits, on some machines the limit switches also disable your drives. It would be interesting to know if your drives have what amounts to enable inputs.

Quote:

Other than that I think I have it figured out and the main thing I will need to learn is how to prep the machine for running g-code because I've never done it with a mill or lathe, just a 3d printer. So I will need to learn to use Mach and the homing and then I think I'll be able to do my first test.

Initial setup of your CNC controller should be similar. In other words you need to know steps per revolution, max step rates and the like. Your CNC controller should guide you through Initialization or at least document the basic settings.
01-12-2014, 03:57 AM
jbaz

Just wanted to report I started with the mill and was able to get it running and got the limits/home all setup. I have only been able to test it using some of the Mach 3 wizards just to confirm the functionality. Now I am trying to learn how I take my 3d models and convert it to g-code to give to Mach 3. I've been searching for a while for a good entry level CAM package to learn with. I don't need advanced features you'd use on more complex machines or in production environments, just something basic.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the process also. I understand work offsets fine, but the actual process for generating the g-code and ending up with the finished piece is alluding me because I haven't done it yet.

I feel like the process likely involves the CAM software creating separate programs from each "side" of the work piece... so you start with side 1, reference the origin and run it, then assuming there is a pocket on the other side or some other geometry that can't be cut with the endmill on the first orientation, or just to clean up the excess material that was in the vise... you would flip it in the vise and reference the origin and have it cut that program.

The whole process though of how you create that second origin, how the CAM knows where you are holding it in the vise, etc is what I am trying to figure out. I suppose I also need to figure out how to ensure in the event the work piece is not placed at the right height in the vise I need Mach3 to have a Z-soft limit (or is it Z-safe or Z-inhibit?) so it will warn me if the program is trying to put the endmill low enough to crash into the vise.

Avoiding crashing the endmill into the vise should probably a top priority for me to figure out, so any input on that would helpful. Secondly, any input on a tutorial or video that walks you through the process of creating g-code from a 3d model and actually piping it into mach3 and running each side of the piece would probably help immensely so I can see how the process is actually done from a CNC standpoint.

Thanks
01-13-2014, 03:59 AM
Fastest1

There are plenty of tutorials on Youtube. Look under CamBam or BobCad. Everyone else has them too.
03-09-2014, 05:52 AM
Steven Martin

I'd suggest being careful, and make sure the PWM-10V converter is isolated. The Spindle Speed control CV input on the 5400 our Robotics Team has is NOT isolated from the AC mains.

BTW, if you still have the old LabVolt boards, and don't plan to do anything with them, we'd be interested in them for spares.

Best,
Steve
03-09-2014, 07:36 AM
jbaz

Steve, thanks for the tips. So far it has been working great with the cheap non-isolated board. I still have the boards, most of the cables (some were re-purposed) and I also have 3 or 4 new in box front control panels and the ones I removed when I did the conversions. I haven't look closely at what unit the replacements are for.

This all was going to go up on eBay to sell to someone who runs the OEM setup that might have fried theirs. I will send you a PM.
08-14-2014, 03:13 AM
AR1911

Re: Yet Another LabVolt 5300 Lathe (Plus a 5400 Mill)

Jbaz
I am on this same road, a few miles behind you. I am working with a Lab-Volt 5400, and am about to wire up the CNC4PC c11 board, which is essentially what you used except it has the C10, C6 and charge pump all in one board.

Did you happen save the wiring diagram or notes?
Right now I need to know where the 4 stepper/chopper drive wires go (yellow, gray, black, red) on the BOB.
Second is how you wired up the motor controller. Mine had a KBLC-240SD board. I think only 2 wires need to move to the C10/C11 board, but I am told I need to change the connection point on the KB motor board also.

Any help appreciated.
08-14-2014, 08:16 AM
jbaz

Re: Yet Another LabVolt 5300 Lathe (Plus a 5400 Mill)

Yes, I have a picture of all of the wiring somewhere. I will look and post it if you end up needing it but I don't think you will. It is actually really simple though once you tear into it and use a volt meter to trace out all the wires.

On the breakout board hopefully you got one that has screw terminals for everything and not the plugs. If they are plug style connectors you will need to buy plugs that match the board. On the board there are 4 connectors for each axis. You simply connect those 4 wires for each axis to the board. They should be Step, Dir, +, -. I am almost certain the drivers board have marking next to the plugs if you look really close. That will help you know which wires are which. You can also verify each with a volt meter.

On the Lab Volt Speed Control you will find a 2-wire connection running from it to the OEM Lab Volt motherboard (which you will totally strip out of the system). It should be the only 2 wire connector running from speed control board to the motherboard. You disconnect that wire from the motherboard and hook it to your breakout board. You breakout board will send a voltage across those 2 wires to the speed control board ranging from 0v (motor stopped) to 10V (motor full speed). 4V for example would be 40% speed.

The limit switches are simple, just clip the plugs off and connect one end on each one to a shared ground pin and each of the other wires to their own free pin on your board. You'll assign those pin in Mach3 according to the limit switches. I forget if the jumper for the inputs are set to Pull Up or not. It has been a while since I've played with them so when I get back to where they are located I can pull all the settings for you.

I also used the original stop button because I had the keys. I just took off all the wires except the pair that carry a connection through the button and wired those to eStop on the board. Just get a volt meter out before you strip out the original parts (assuming it powers up and can be jogged and spindle started) and you can easily find out which wire is what by grounding one end of the volt meter and touching the other probe to the various wires and you will see when they carry a current and in what state.

Without power on just use the ohm function if you have it, or use an ohm meter, and you can do the same for most of it, particularly for the limits, estop button, 5v+, etc.

Let me know if you need more help and I will try my best from recall until I get in front of the machine again since it is not at my house right now. IIRC the steps per inch in Mach3 need to be set to 2,000 which gives you .0005 resolution which isn't bad for a little machine like that. It is actually pretty solid for such a little machine in aluminum for make small parts slowly, but engraving is where I see it being a real nice asset for someone trying to use for productivity.

It will mill mild steel with a 1/8" cutter believe it or not. It is tough on the machine but I milled a 2"x7" part that was 1/2" thick, which required about 70% of the material to be removed. It took like 30 hours, but that was using old school tool paths. If you used HSM (aka Adaptive Clearing) so it kept a constant load on the cutter it could have been done in like 15 hours. To put it in perspective I have a VMC now that can run the same part in 30 minutes.

I wouldn't use it in steel though unless you are very desperate, but aluminum it can do well with a 1/4 cutter and engraving it makes very nice results.
08-14-2014, 08:34 AM
jbaz

Re: Yet Another LabVolt 5300 Lathe (Plus a 5400 Mill)

I found some pics on my phone... the orange/brown wire coming from the speed control is what you hook to your break out board. Your break board will send a 0-10v single based on the RPM selected in Mach3 to the motor controller. The spindle max is 2,800 rpm. So when you have 2,800 rpm selected in Mach3 you should get close to 10v out of those wires. To be honest though, I measured the output at max when it was using all OEM equipment and it registered 8.8v. I adjusted the trim pot on the motor controller to match but in hindsight they probably had it setup wrong and I should have put it at 10v. This is really neither here nor there for this machine.

The limit switched are open circuits until they are tripped. Then they close the circuit. You will use that in your settings in Mach3 (Hi/Lo signal). If you hook up your limits and it says you hit a limit switch when you didn't then toggle that setting. Worry about limits last once everything else is working.

On the axis 4-wire you should have if it is like mine, orange, brown, white, red. Orange is STEP, White is DIR. I believe red is 5v+ and brown is -, but take your volt meter to be sure. Better yet, read the tiny white markings on the stepper drivers next to the plug, it will tell you what each wire is.

That you get you rocking.
08-16-2014, 04:17 AM
jbaz

Re: Yet Another LabVolt 5300 Lathe (Plus a 5400 Mill)

How did it work out for you, did you get it squared away and running?
02-13-2016, 02:02 AM
AR1911

Quote:

Originally Posted by jbaz

How did it work out for you, did you get it squared away and running?

I apologize for not following through. My machine still is not running. I did not realize I had been working on it since 2014! But I have other projects going.
I determined this week that my parallel port on the PC was dead. Can't ever red sol that happening before.
And today I decided the transformer had an internal short which has it putting out 95V at the capacitor. When I fried the x axis drive I threw up my hands and went home.
Back at it Monday with new power supply.

Anyone have specs on thos steppers? Volts, amps?