Harvey / Helical putting mills down for 8 days and counting
I purchased 8, 1/2" end mills through Helical to attempt a Chatter reduction strategy. I bought them through Cutting Edge Tool Supply who I prefer to work with on stuff brands make me order that I can't find at an online eCommerce retailer. The Helical website boasted 2-3 day shipping and displayed in stock inventory, and I had the impression Harvey was a consistent quality vendor.
Thursday of last week I requested tracking toward close of business at 3 business days, and got nothing. Tuesday I called CETS, no news (this is not normal for CETS). I then called Helical and tried to figure out what is going on. They explained to me that CETS is not an "authorized distributor" so CETS is buying from someone else, and they could find me as a customer in their system from orders at some point with another vendor who they would drop ship to me for, but they couldn't find my order because of the double tiered distribution they were forcing on my ordering situation.
This sales game crap has had a mill down with a guy being paid to run that machine for about 5 business days now. We have no idea where the Helical tool is, we don't want to order 8 more 1/2" end mills at nearly $100 each just to have our existing order delivered, and it really begs the question why do the customers of Helical get treated like this?
I have no idea when that mill will be up, but I've got new reasons to avoid Harvey if I can do anything else. It's interesting when companies cripple a business model and put themselves in a no win situation. Decent tools, but where's the availability when in stock items can't get to the customer?
Re: Harvey / Helical putting mills down for 8 days and counting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Green0
I got a call from helical today. They were finally able to find my order. It looks like I lost one day with cets getting the order to the authorized distributor from Cets, and it took the authorized distributor 2 days to order the tools, then Harvey shipped the same day- 3 days after our order but not to us.
The authorized distributor who cant or won't provide tracking to CETS, has the order apparently, and should have shipped it to Cets, who should then ship it to me.
Ive requested tracking 3 times with Cets, three times with helical (initial phone call, customer service email, and during a call back today).
I can see the order is probably on a way to resolution but may be another few days to a week, so maybe 2 weeks nothing like the 2-3 days advertised on helical.
Apparently Jonas supply in my area has the ability to ecommerce these items so maybe I could reduce handling time going forward if we cant find the tool we need with another brand.
If it is a Harvey Tool why are you not buying direct Harvey is a good company and shipping is same day as you order from them
Re: Harvey / Helical putting mills down for 8 days and counting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mactec54
If it is a Harvey Tool why are you not buying direct Harvey is a good company and shipping is same day as you order from them
Last time I needed something from Harvey Tool I had to buy through a local distributor, they would not sell direct. This was a couple years or so ago, maybe they have changed their sales policy by now. As I recall they did drop ship it, but not sure about that.
I would buy more stuff from them if they had a method of purchasing direct, maybe Ecommerce or something. But because of their distribution network I buy from other vendors is there is a choice.
Re: Harvey / Helical putting mills down for 8 days and counting
We were hoping for some magic, running a job with 3" stick out, finishing a 1.25" deep bore, we're trying to find a deal on heat shrink tooling to reduce the stick out of the tools and get the job cut. It's been 2 weeks of test cuts. Kind of miserable. Running just aluminum in a 4th axis on a Doosan mill. Everything we're running right now is just running right into the scrap bin. It's not very motivating. It looks like it's just not possible with 3" stick out so maybe the slim heat shrink holders will get it done at a conventional 1.5" stick out if we can figure that out.
Re: Harvey / Helical putting mills down for 8 days and counting
Is it possible to spiral in using a relieved endmill? About 0.125 per revolution. That's how I normally finish a bore. Leaves a nice finish.
Re: Harvey / Helical putting mills down for 8 days and counting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Green0
We were hoping for some magic, running a job with 3" stick out, finishing a 1.25" deep bore, we're trying to find a deal on heat shrink tooling to reduce the stick out of the tools and get the job cut. It's been 2 weeks of test cuts. Kind of miserable. Running just aluminum in a 4th axis on a Doosan mill. Everything we're running right now is just running right into the scrap bin. It's not very motivating. It looks like it's just not possible with 3" stick out so maybe the slim heat shrink holders will get it done at a conventional 1.5" stick out if we can figure that out.
Can you not rough mill and bore it to finish size if it is a round bore
Re: Harvey / Helical putting mills down for 8 days and counting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jim Dawson
Is it possible to spiral in using a relieved endmill? About 0.125 per revolution. That's how I normally finish a bore. Leaves a nice finish.
We ordered the heat shrink system and tools from Techniks via Ellison yesterday, so we're hoping that ships fast, and we'll give it a shot. It was like $10,000 for the package of tools and the machine, but we got a few spare holders for other application solutions that could pop up.
One of the end mills we bought is relieved, still subject to the 2.85" stick out required for the job here, and in the hydraulic holder the 5" shank puts it at like 3.150" minimum stickout. I think you are correct and we could probably .125" helix it, and that would put us at 11 passes to get it to finished, and we're running 2 at full depth or we tried up to 5 step downs (which for two bores per part adds one minute to 18 minute cut time) and it wasn't smooth (steps) and we want to figure out a way to produce the ~27 parts in this family efficiently so we had had better cutting properties with the rogue end mill, so we were thinking, get the heat shrink in, drop the 3.15" stick out to 2" with the slim necked holder and 2" flute 4" OAL 45 deg helix rogue end mill, and I think we will be able to full depth cut this in 2 passes, using one pass to normalize the wall stock from the rough, and one to finish it without chatter. We're looking to get good enough that the process is stable across the 27 parts, AKA not requiring different processes for different parts.
We could bore it but I don't see any boring tools that look right, and I'd probably have to apply it to some engineer at Big Kaiser, and buy 3 boring tools per machine (3 machines) for the 3 different hole sizes out of desire to keep the process able to go part to part without requiring operators to be really skilled and on the ball adjusting those tools and stuff, and even then the offset isn't in the control so it's nuanced. We're hoping to mill the bores in an efficient run time. That could cost more than the heat shrink solution to get a similar level of automation and speed part to part.
Re: Harvey / Helical putting mills down for 8 days and counting
Would it make any sense or be possible to use a shell reamer to finish the hole? Regarding the spiral down, it seems to me that a little extra time spent there might be worth it given that the current run of parts is going from the machine to the scrap bin.
Re: Harvey / Helical putting mills down for 8 days and counting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jim Dawson
Would it make any sense or be possible to use a shell reamer to finish the hole? Regarding the spiral down, it seems to me that a little extra time spent there might be worth it given that the current run of parts is going from the machine to the scrap bin.
I have a hope that dropping 6.5xD stickout to 4 will dramatically improve this to where we can do something efficient and high quality. Process stability would be there with a helix, but the time loss, and higher tool consumption rates would be there too, so we're trying to isolate all possibilities before we compromise process speed and economy for the solution.
We've tried a lot of stuff, this started off with 3/8" end mills, and they ran pretty competitively with the 1/2", so it's possible that the side pressure on the part is part of this problem. The 3/8" strategies weren't hot either. All the strategies were borderline or marginal. Hydraulic holders brought improvement, but just short of a really high quality finish. The hydraulic holder doesn't provide the clearance of the heat shrink so we're hoping heat shrink holders will provide the right combination of rigidity, TIR, and stick out to make the higher speed strategies work out. We know the rogue end mills ran with the 2.85" or 2.95" stickout to quality, but our hydraulic holders were marginal for grip under certain cuts during development, because they needed more shank than 1.05 -1.15" for ideal clamping (probably design related to where they are clamping). We've had at least one tool spin and break. So we have a tool that works, and theoretically the heat shrink holder should be able to effectively work-hold it and with more optimal rigidity than hydraulic with that shorter 2" stick out condition afforded by the more clearanced holder.
I'll update this when I can get the heat shrink stuff in machines. Maybe I'll try one last thing and push the Rogue end mills back in Monday in Hydraulic holders. If they can cut with the feeds and speeds worked up as optimal with Helical, maybe we can limp the process along until the heat shrink holders and machine get here.
Re: Harvey / Helical putting mills down for 8 days and counting
I ordered through the authorized distributor this time for the second order of Helical end mills we were hoping to resolve this with using the Heat shrink holders to take advantage of the technology in the Helical, and the reach of the heat shrink. The programmer wanted an update on the status and I realized I don't have an e-mail from the AD, so I called Helical again. Again they had no info even though this time I had an order date and authorized distributor name. So I called the authorized distributor. Now I'm 50 minutes deep on this one, and we found the order but I'm going to have to get a call back with tracking.
I wish these guys would get modern and just have a portal and allow the order to come in direct so they could get me tracking. And if they have to give some percentage to some area distributor, that's fine, even though it doesn't make any sense because I'm a customer, and they are a vendor, and I'm bringing them an order, and they are directly shipping the order, but at least it wouldn't involve margin to a distributor, AND multiple hoops and lots of wasted time on my end. I've lost the original 50 minutes, plus the time to order from a company I haven't placed an online order with so the cost of these endmills, is MSRP + about 65 minutes of my time. It's dysfunctional. Ideally the order should cost me something like 5 minutes of my time, and provide me tracking so when the programmer asks where his attempted resolution product is, I can use a tracking number and answer him in 5 minutes, again reducing cost.
Re: Harvey / Helical putting mills down for 8 days and counting
Do you not have any relationships with tool jobbers where you are?
You bought Techniks - through Ellison?
Re: Harvey / Helical putting mills down for 8 days and counting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generaldisarray
Do you not have any relationships with tool jobbers where you are?
You bought Techniks - through Ellison?
My opinion based on my experience with the local tool distributors is that they aren't competitive. My best relationships are with my machine tool dealers. We got better pricing from Ellison than we would have guessed we would get from our tool distributors.
We did an engineering modification to the part, added a groove to allow the bore we were sizing to be machined in two step cuts seperated visually by the groove in the middle and that allowed us to get a good finish with the 1.625" flute length Helical 1/2" variable pitch end mill in the heat shrink holder, by cutting a .010" radial wall stock cut at 10,000 RPM, .002" per flute, with a spring pass for burnishing the cut to final finish condition. The bore is cut in 2 depth cuts, 2 roughs, 1 semi rough, 1 finish, 1 spring pass per depth cut. It takes about 1 minute to cut the two bores because the roughing feed is 120 IPM so it cuts fast, the finish is 60IPM, and the spring 60IPM. So 20 passes cut the two bores to finish size and finish. It seems like we could really afford to have some better end mills on the market for these situations. I think the lack of a chip breaker geometry was what was murdering the operation. Cutting the bore to 2 steps helped shorten chips and reduce contact.
Re: Harvey / Helical putting mills down for 8 days and counting
Sadly it's time to order Harvey again. Nobody stocks this stuff and no one e-commerces it. I can't order. It's so stupid. This time we're looking for 23224 end mills, and I can't close an order because 7 of my local distributors formed a conglomerate and now my Jonas Tool supply login doesn't work anymore on the website the jonas supply url tracks to.
I'm ordering $5000 of tooling in an hour and Harvey's $180 is impossible to order.
I've got 4 sales employees whos job it is to sell my product to customers and to find customers, and Harvey can't sell to their existing customers. That's how bad Harvey is at sales.
Re: Harvey / Helical putting mills down for 8 days and counting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Green0
Sadly it's time to order Harvey again. Nobody stocks this stuff and no one e-commerces it. I can't order. It's so stupid. This time we're looking for 23224 end mills, and I can't close an order because 7 of my local distributors formed a conglomerate and now my Jonas Tool supply login doesn't work anymore on the website the jonas supply url tracks to.
I'm ordering $5000 of tooling in an hour and Harvey's $180 is impossible to order.
I've got 4 sales employees whos job it is to sell my product to customers and to find customers, and Harvey can't sell to their existing customers. That's how bad Harvey is at sales.
Ok make an offer to the company to be a reseller of there cutters here is a great opportunity for your company to change things, these so called suppliers are hopeless in most cases and never carry any of there product anyway they always dropship so cut out the Bs supply companies if you can, you can offer the same service as any of the suppliers are
Re: Harvey / Helical putting mills down for 8 days and counting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mactec54
Ok make an offer to the company to be a reseller of there cutters here is a great opportunity for your company to change things, these so called suppliers are hopeless in most cases and never carry any of there product anyway they always dropship so cut out the Bs supply companies if you can, you can offer the same service as any of the suppliers are
I don't even want a discount on the brand anymore. I just want a clean fast ordering process that doesn't waste my time or anyone else's time. So really Helical could give these to any online eCommerce vendor willing to sell at MSRP and it would totally resolve the situation.
I ended up calling Melin tool they make a lolipop and didn't want to uncoat some tools to take these orders, but they do use ecommerce distributors, then I found these guys:
https://mbemrocatalog.com/catalogsea...ult/?q=29-4160
I can't really effectively purchase Harvey so I'm going to try these. Undercutting Endmills/Lolli Pop Cutters - Series 29
Re: Harvey / Helical putting mills down for 8 days and counting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Green0
I just want a clean fast ordering process that doesn't waste my time or anyone else's time.
I have several Harvey tools in our vending system.
I literally dont do anything but use them and new ones show up.
We use DECO Tool for our vending. I send request by email to add/ remove items or shift order points and qtys. Once that is done it is completely on auto pilot.
Re: Harvey / Helical putting mills down for 8 days and counting
Quote:
Originally Posted by
generaldisarray
I have several Harvey tools in our vending system.
I literally dont do anything but use them and new ones show up.
We use DECO Tool for our vending. I send request by email to add/ remove items or shift order points and qtys. Once that is done it is completely on auto pilot.
That means your distributor is probably an authorized distributor, and you've made some agreement to have their vending system. We don't have a vending system here, and the guys that would offer one around here, are not competitive so that convenience in my area means you're going to overspend on tooling. Currently Harvey is probably the only brand we have trouble getting. The conglomerate PTS in Warren Michigan just bought up about 7 tool companies in our area of Wisconsin, and some of those bought are somewhat known for ripping people off locally.
I have no idea what the reputation of PTS is.
