Retrofit Jianken Jgl-100/3.2R24 800Hz & Fuling DZB312B005.5L2DK to old Isel ADVICE

Hi

I have a 1990's 16" x 20" x 10" isel w/ Techno controller that has been cutting everything from wood to tool steel and titanium with router motors and mostly Niagara high freq. tooling.

Finally (after retiring) I decided that after 10,000+ tool changes that I would treat myself to an atc spindle. I will build a turret carousel for 8 to 10 tools so as to not lose any travel. (my third but first for myself)

So I am hoping to get some advice, tips and answers form the wealth of talented people on this site

Thanks in advance.

My biggest concern is that I DO NOT want to burn this spindle motor, it wasn't cheap.

Here is where I am at right now.

I have a 2.2kw rattmmotor spindle with huan....clone vfd, it is installed and running, but I haven't cut anything with it.

I am thinking of bench testing the fuling vfd with the 2.2kw motor, because I only have single phase 220v power and Fuling docs are sketchy at best and plate on vfd reads input 220 3 phase
I purchased the fuling from china, G penny which advertised it as capable of 220v single phase and 1000 Hz. 23 amps (I assume at 3 phase input)

My Jianken spindle is 4 pole, 8.8amp and needs 800Hz to reach 24k rpm

My first question is will this spindle and vfd work together properly?

Any advice, tips, warnings or questions are all welcome

Thanks

Hi,
the Jianken spindles have a pretty good reputation......Fuling on the other hand do not.

I swear by Delta products, a Taiwanese brand often manufactured in China but a decided step up in quality and support than Fuling.

Craig

Quote:

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Originally Posted by joeavaerage

Hi,
the Jianken spindles have a pretty good reputation......Fuling on the other hand do not.

I swear by Delta products, a Taiwanese brand often manufactured in China but a decided step up in quality and support than Fuling.

Craig

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Hey Craig , thanks for the quick reply. Can you point me to a Delta model that will accept 220v 1 phase and do 800 Hz? How about with braking resistor circuit? thanks

Having searched Fuling here, it seems that some have been using them for quite a while.? I chose the 5.5kw vfd for my 3.2kw motor, hoping to have enough overhead. It's also tough to find an 800hz vfd.

If it won't run on 220v 1 phase then its going back.

Hi,
Deltas current model line-up is the MS300 series which comes in standard models to 600Hz and Highspeed models to 1500Hz.
the 'H' at the tail end of the part number denotes thee highspeed models.

https://deltaacdrives.com/delta-ms300-vfd11ams21afsha/

Craig

Quote:

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Originally Posted by joeavaerage

Hi,
Deltas current model line-up is the MS300 series which comes in standard models to 600Hz and Highspeed models to 1500Hz.
the 'H' at the tail end of the part number denotes thee highspeed models.

https://deltaacdrives.com/delta-ms300-vfd11ams21afsha/

Craig

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If the Delta docs ae correct, I already see a few problems. 600 hz and no single phase over 3kw and starting at 3 times what i paid for the Fuling. I'll call them to check about 800hz/1 phase. If the Fuling doesn't pan out then Delta may be an option. I ended up taking a chance with Fuling because some of the better known reliable brands can end up costing thousands. Ouch

Thanks again Craig

While I set up to test the Fuling, here is a bit more about my build.....

In that i want to run this spindle at lower rpm's for hard metals and also high r's for woods, small tools ,etc. I started looking at chillers and options to keep the spindle temps well below 40c. Jianken recommends around 20-24c
I ended buying a 6000btu window ac unit, bent the copper tubes and sunk the evap into my water reservoir. Broke in the 2.2kw spindle at exactly 20c no load, but I'm confident that even on hot day, with decent spindle loads that i can keep things cool. I got lucky and was able to sink the evaporator in a shallow 4 gallon reservoir filled with Propylene Glycol . Little giant pump at one end and return line near other end of evap.Under $200ca for LG ac unit with remote and energy saver mode, etc. Cheaper than any chiller I could find??

I've gathered all the pneumatic components and plan to build an 8 station carousel style turret similar to the one in the image below. It will swing into range of the spindle, and back out so that I don't lose any travel, in that I don't have that much to spare. it should also be easier to keep chips out of the toolholders as opposed to slide mounted stands

Once again any and all comments suggestions questions ,etc are welcome

Hi,
the drive I linked to is the highspeed model, ie 1500Hz. The standard model is 600Hz and is more common but the highspeed model is available and usual no more than $20 difference.

2.2kW is the common maximum for single phase use, and this limitation is imposed by the input current demand. You will note in the specifications provided by Delta for this
2.2kW unit the max input current, depending on usage, is 23A-26A. That is quite a bit of current. I'll bet you that Fuling and others do not adequately specify the input current.

All VFDs have a very poor power factor, those manufacturers who publish such specs are between 0.5 and 0.6, with 0.55 being a common norm. Thus a 2.2kW VFD:
2200/230=9.5A...but with a 0.55 power factor = 9.5/0.55=17.4A. With say a 150% overload that becomes 26A. So you can see that input current demand is high.

Lets do the same calculation for a 3.7kW VFD:
3700/230=16A, but with 0.55 power factor 16/0.55=29.2A and 150% overload=43.9A. That would stress most domestic supplies. Its for this reason that most of the mainstream
manufacturers limit there single phase input models to 2.2kW. There is nothing that prevents a single phase input VFD from being larger but requires both high input currents and
requires larger/more DC link capacitors in the VFD input supply circuit. Those capacitors are not cheap, and good, highly reliable ones are especially not cheap. It is one of the main
differences between cheap VFDs and good ones is the quality/quantity of the DC link capacitors.

Typically the only difference between a 3.7kW 3 phase input VFD and a 3.7kW single phase input VFD is the size of the DC link capacitors. Thus you could use a 3 phase
input VFD with only a single input phase with something like a 30% de-rating. Some VFDs have terminals that connect directly to the DC link rail and so you could add
more DC link capacitance and that would avoid the de-rating which you would otherwise have to apply. VFDs which have those terminals are intended for an external
braking resistor but DO NOT have the internal braking resistor switching transistor. Such VFDs wre commonly used for lift/evelvator service where the braking resistor
AND the switching transistor are exrtenally mounted.

Provided you are aware of the potentially high input current demand and have an electrician fit an adequate cable/breaker/socket, no worries. If you try and skimp then you
risk your domestic electrical installation.

There are means of improving power factor which in turn results in less current draw for a given output power. The classic way with VFDs and servo drives is line reactors.
There is also a market for electronic power factor correction units, typically used in high power (50kW plus) industrial situations but their cost is often as much as the VFD!

As for the cost of Delta VFDs, then if you buy off Ebay you will find good savings, but none the less expect to pay double what you'd pay for Fuling. Delta are cost wise on
par with Hitachi but still 1/2 to 1/3 than Yaskawa.

Craig

Thanks again for the info

I planned on 40 amp 2 pole breaker, 10g wire, 40 amp contactor, but 30 amp fuses at first. Fuling states 23 amps (3 phase I'm sure).

My motor is 3.2kw, 8.8 amps. I plan on not pushing it too hard (if it works at all,lol) until I'm comfortable with things.

If the Fuling doesn't work out and I can get a Delta vfd for twice the Fuling, that would be wonderful.

I need to get past first base and take it from there.

i hope to have some results soon....lots to do

Hi,
I would guess that you have a sufficient supply.

The current draw only ever gets above 25% when you start pushing it or you manage to bury a tool in some stock, and with any sort of luck that is almost never.

I would use a D curve breaker, they are rated for motor use and tolerate short duration current demands that would trip a more normal C curve breaker.

I would also consider a line reactor. I have a 750W Delta VFD operating the spindle on my mini-mill, so current draw is not really an issue. I did find that when I pushed the spindle
my Ethernet SmoothStepper control board would go cranky. After trying a few different EMI filters and so on I tried a line reactor and the problem disappeared and I've never had an issue since
no matter how much I load the spindle.

The problem with VFDs is that the current draw is in short duration pulses, called by electrical engineers harmonic distortion. This distortion is the reason for such a poor power factor of VFDs,
but also in my case was producing enough electrical hash on my 230VAC supply to affect my PC and SmoothStepper.

I have a 1.8kW AC servo as a spindle motor, it is much slower than the VFD spindle, but much more torque, just right for steel and stainless. When I run it it will run for hours at a time at over 1kW.
It is powered through a hand wound reactor and at 1kW (estimated) output draws 5A-6A, which in turn suggests a power factor of 0.8 to 0.85, which I think is quite respectable.

I have just completed a new build mill and am looking to make a new spindle based on a 2.85kW (rated) servo motor manufactured in the mid 90's. I'll have to make my own drive, electronics is my thing.
I have yet to decide whether I'll have a line reactor or an active power factor unit. This thing will draw 48A at overload, so the choice between passive (line reactor) or active is not trivial.
We have just shifted business premises and I have access to a 50A D curve supply, so I'm looking forward to chewing some chips.

Craig

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rjwims

Thanks again for the info

I planned on 40 amp 2 pole breaker, 10g wire, 40 amp contactor, but 30 amp fuses at first. Fuling states 23 amps (3 phase I'm sure).

My motor is 3.2kw, 8.8 amps. I plan on not pushing it too hard (if it works at all,lol) until I'm comfortable with things.

If the Fuling doesn't work out and I can get a Delta vfd for twice the Fuling, that would be wonderful.

I need to get past first base and take it from there.

i hope to have some results soon....lots to do

---

The Fuling VFD will be fine just make sure you program it correctly.

8.8A seems low for that size spindle the quality 2.2Kw are 10A, no matter what it is your power supply will be ok with what you are planning

My project is slowly moving forward. I'm almost done with my DIY enclosure and running dedicated power and air line.

Enclosure should be done soon and air line as well which brings me to this ....

Question regarding using oil in pneumatic systems on atc spindle.

In the past, I normally used a light oil in pneumatic systems, involving valves, cylinders, etc, but in the case of an atc spindle,would it be better to NOT send oil to the air seal?

I will also be using a .3 micron filter for the seal.

Spindle has ceramic balls and is grease lubricated (24k rpm) from the factory

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rjwims

My project is slowly moving forward. I'm almost done with my DIY enclosure and running dedicated power and air line.

Enclosure should be done soon and air line as well which brings me to this ....

Question regarding using oil in pneumatic systems on atc spindle.

In the past, I normally used a light oil in pneumatic systems, involving valves, cylinders, etc, but in the case of an atc spindle,would it be better to NOT send oil to the air seal?

I will also be using a .3 micron filter for the seal.

Spindle has ceramic balls and is grease lubricated (24k rpm) from the factory

---

It should all be oil free, clean dry air is all that is required, it is not an air tool which requires some lube / oil,

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mactec54

It should all be oil free, clean dry air is all that is required, it is not an air tool which requires some lube / oil,

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Just had to be sure....I hate 2 steps forward and 3 steps back

The list gets a tad shorter...

My diy electrical enclosure is coming together as well as the air supply. I need to clean up the mess in my cnc control box and install a 50 pin cable and breakout board for the atc stuff.

I had sent an email about the on board pot, to the Fuling vendor and finally he responds with a picture with chinese writing on it and a short message....lol

Picture is attached and the message reads

" if you need use the knob on the panel, need this key down .Best regards Penny"

I think he's trying to tell me to hook up to the outs, perhaps S1 or maybe flip some switch as well.

I'll get it eventually , I hope (The plot thickens and the argument to spend bigger $$ and avoid the pain is stronger)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rjwims

Just had to be sure....I hate 2 steps forward and 3 steps back

The list gets a tad shorter...

My diy electrical enclosure is coming together as well as the air supply. I need to clean up the mess in my cnc control box and install a 50 pin cable and breakout board for the atc stuff.

I had sent an email about the on board pot, to the Fuling vendor and finally he responds with a picture with chinese writing on it and a short message....lol

Picture is attached and the message reads

" if you need use the knob on the panel, need this key down .Best regards Penny"

I think he's trying to tell me to hook up to the outs, perhaps S1 or maybe flip some switch as well.

I'll get it eventually , I hope (The plot thickens and the argument to spend bigger $$ and avoid the pain is stronger)

---

He obvious did not know what how to get the pot working, the Pot will work if you have the correct Parameters set, and in the right mode.

He is refiring to the UP /Down arrow keys, this also will change the frequency when the spindle is running.

You would not be connecting anything to a switch to make the Pot work.

questions on the tdk-lambda 2030L

You recommended twisting the 2 power wires . is this only from the tdk to the vfd or everywhere ?

also the middle terminal on the tdk is for grounding. does it matter where to ground or should load side go to vfd gnd

how about the gauge of the ground wires?

thx

@rjwims, I'm curious how your retrofit is going. I got this exact same spindle a while back and only now I'm beginning my build. Long story but I already had a "Simphoenix" 4.5kW (1kHz) VFD, which I am planning on using with it. Likely just as "high end" :rolleyes: as the Fueling (which I have two and I've been using them quite a bit for the past 12 years with no issues).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rjwims

questions on the tdk-lambda 2030L

You recommended twisting the 2 power wires . is this only from the tdk to the vfd or everywhere ?

also the middle terminal on the tdk is for grounding. does it matter where to ground or should load side go to vfd gnd

how about the gauge of the ground wires?

thx

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Everywhere you can, Twist High voltage wires, and low voltage wire pairs where ever you can, it all helps to cancel out noise

All Grounds should go to a correctly mounted Ground Bus or a stud ( star point Ground ) Ground wires size is normally the same as what the supply wire size is, here is the code requirement for Ground wire size

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dogmaphobic

@rjwims, I'm curious how your retrofit is going. I got this exact same spindle a while back and only now I'm beginning my build. Long story but I already had a "Simphoenix" 4.5kW (1kHz) VFD, which I am planning on using with it. Likely just as "high end" :rolleyes: as the Fueling (which I have two and I've been using them quite a bit for the past 12 years with no issues).

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I have been somewhat occupied with family matters so things are on hold for a while.

Is your spindle a 4 pole?

Before I was sidetracked...

My machine is quite old, so I decided to do some long overdo maintenance

My machine is a 21" x 16" travel and I found a way to increase that by 2" in both directions.

So now I will be able to come up with a simple 6 to 8 station tool holder solution without losing travel. (Will be 21 x 18")

If I have Fulin problems I'll look you up ?

- - - Updated - - -

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mactec54

Everywhere you can, Twist High voltage wires, and low voltage wire pairs where ever you can, it all helps to cancel out noise

All Grounds should go to a correctly mounted Ground Bus or a stud ( star point Ground ) Ground wires size is normally the same as what the supply wire size is, here is the code requirement for Ground wire size

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Thanks for that

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rjwims

I have been somewhat occupied with family matters so things are on hold for a while.

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Yup, same. I got this spindle almost 2 years ago. Only now I'm beginning to think about putting all together.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rjwims

Is your spindle a 4 pole?

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Yes, it's an 800Hz unit.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rjwims

If I have Fulin problems I'll look you up ?

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Lol, maybe to compare notes. These VFDs are not the same but the settings mostly are. Documentation on these things are awful at best of times. This spindle at least came with a manual. After translating the translation, I have the pneumatics sorted out. I have not even started with the electric hookups. Besides the thermistor, it appears to have some NPN triggers but I don't even know what's for. One step at a time.