Chinese "for metal" 4-pole spindle
Hi guys!
I'll be upgrading my "spindle", currently a wood router and I have a dilemma: I've found on Aliexpress spindles that the seller describes as "for metal and hard wood".
Like this: Professional Metal working spindle 2.2kw spindle motor for iron,copper,steel 800Hz Pole=4 & Fuling VFD & 85mm holder & 75w pump
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32985780664.html
They claim the spindle has steel chassis (vs aluminium for "standard"), ceramic bearings (for standard it's an option). And they are more expensive...
This 2,2kW one costs the same as 3,2kW "standard" spindle:
3.2kw ER20 water cooled spindle kit 220v / 380v 3.0kw & 220v 4kw inverter & 100mm spindle brack & 75w water pump & 5meter tube
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32945024944.html
The added bonus for the latter is a bigger VFD, which is a good thing.
My target is wood and sometimes aluminium. Totally hobby, but I'd like to buy as universal spindle as possible in that budget (max 700$ for a complete set), so it's as least a little bit future-proof. I assume that 4P spindle would have better low rpm performance...
At some point I will try to touch steel, but more out of curiosity because my machine is not rigid enough.
Power available is 220V, single phase.
My question is - which set makes more sense? Is it more universal? Is anyone using this "metal" spindle?
Appreciate any advice.
Cheers,
Martin
Re: Chinese "for metal" 4-pole spindle
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mkaluza2
Hi guys!
I'll be upgrading my "spindle", currently a wood router and I have a dilemma: I've found on Aliexpress spindles that the seller describes as "for metal and hard wood".
Like this: Professional Metal working spindle 2.2kw spindle motor for iron,copper,steel 800Hz Pole=4 & Fuling VFD & 85mm holder & 75w pump
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32985780664.html
They claim the spindle has steel chassis (vs aluminium for "standard"), ceramic bearings (for standard it's an option). And they are more expensive...
This 2,2kW one costs the same as 3,2kW "standard" spindle:
3.2kw ER20 water cooled spindle kit 220v / 380v 3.0kw & 220v 4kw inverter & 100mm spindle brack & 75w water pump & 5meter tube
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32945024944.html
The added bonus for the latter is a bigger VFD, which is a good thing.
My target is wood and sometimes aluminium. Totally hobby, but I'd like to buy as universal spindle as possible in that budget (max 700$ for a complete set), so it's as least a little bit future-proof. I assume that 4P spindle would have better low rpm performance...
At some point I will try to touch steel, but more out of curiosity because my machine is not rigid enough.
Power available is 220V, single phase.
My question is - which set makes more sense? Is it more universal? Is anyone using this "metal" spindle?
Appreciate any advice.
Cheers,
Martin
Well you have to decide on what you want 4 Pole or a 2 Pole both spindles are well manufactured
If you can get the 220v 3.2Kw with ceramic bearings it may be better in the long run, make sure you choose the correct voltage spindle you have to specify when ordering
No the 4Pole in there spec's has a high RPM minimum this manufacture I have used and the minimum for the 2 Pole is around 3,000RPM
For the 3.2Kw you would need around a 35A if using 240v single phase
Re: Chinese "for metal" 4-pole spindle
35A?! Why? That is 8,4kW... How did you get this value?
1 Attachment(s)
Re: Chinese "for metal" 4-pole spindle
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mkaluza2
35A?! Why? That is 8,4kW... How did you get this value?
15 amp at the motor you double that at the VFD Drive input for single phase X 125% ( code requirement for breaker size ) 35A is the closest breaker so your input wiring etc. need to be in that range
Most are using 30A supply for there whole machine that are using 2.2Kw spindle VFD Drive input requires 25A minimum for it's needs, the snip will give you a rough idea of Amperage required
Re: Chinese "for metal" 4-pole spindle
800hz, 24000 RPM. These values does not sound right when you say "for metal".
Sent from my MI 5s Plus using Tapatalk
Re: Chinese "for metal" 4-pole spindle
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Azalin
800hz, 24000 RPM. These values does not sound right when you say "for metal".
Sent from my MI 5s Plus using Tapatalk
That would depend on what they term as cutting metal, the spec's where 12,000 RPM to 24,000 RPM this would indicate engraving in metal, which you can do with any of these spindles anyway, it very well may be able to be used with settings of 400Hz 12,000 being the max RPM and still have good torque down in the lower RPM range so 2,000 / 2500 RPM may be possible with this 4 Pole Spindle
I have one of these Spindles that is 2 Pole and is quite good at 3,000 RPM all the way to 24,000 RPM they have a longer and larger rotor and more copper than other spindles of the same size, so have more torque at the lower speeds
Re: Chinese "for metal" 4-pole spindle
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ritzy321
Hi I literally received this spindle yesterday, haven't had a chance to break it in yet but runout looks good. I grabbed this one over a 1.5kW as larger collet, 4 pole and it's meant to be cast iron. My thinking is that people run their 2 pole at down to 6k rpm so hopefully can do the same as I would only do light cuts at that rpm anyway.
Nothing cast iron about it, if it is the same 2.2Kw spindle then it can run at 3,000 RPM
1 Attachment(s)
Re: Chinese "for metal" 4-pole spindle
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ritzy321
https://m.aliexpress.com/item/32985780664.html
It's listed as iron in the comparison picture and 85mm diameter
But not cast Iron
Just there way of using words as like the plug description Air Plug ( for aviation Plug )
Re: Chinese "for metal" 4-pole spindle
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ritzy321
Hi I literally received this spindle yesterday, haven't had a chance to break it in yet but runout looks good. I grabbed this one over a 1.5kW as larger collet, 4 pole and it's meant to be cast iron. My thinking is that people run their 2 pole at down to 6k rpm so hopefully can do the same as I would only do light cuts at that rpm anyway.
@Ritzy321
It's been some time since you got that spindle - what are your impressions? What do you use it for? What materials, parameters? Your input will be very valuable.
Re: Chinese "for metal" 4-pole spindle
I just got this spindle upgrading from a GDZ 1.5Kw to increase collet size and torque power. I do not work metal but hardwood and choose this "metal" 85mm spindle hoping in a bigger torque power but it is amazingly weak... I still hope it a problem in setting and the seller is assisting me to found out the problem so, I'm just waiting to understand about it but I'm posting the problem to see if someone can answer my question:
The bit and the spindle axe stops pretty easily even working normal plastic not metal but the very strange fact is you can clearly hear the spinning noise even if the axe and bit is stopped.
My question is: What can spin rotation inside the spindle if the axe and bit are not moving? Is there a sort of friction to save engine wen the bit stops?
I attached a movie to let you understand the problem.
The selling company is very kind and they are try to support me to understand the problem and I will you informed here about any solution.
1 Attachment(s)
Re: Chinese "for metal" 4-pole spindle
Re: Chinese "for metal" 4-pole spindle
I have not compared with exact same parameters because it is an hard work to replace the old ones and reset the inverter. I just supposed this one (2.2kw versus 1.5 plus larger and longer coils should have, nearly, the double of torque but it surely don't. About the job in the movie, it is Policarbonate and the bit is trying to take away 3mm for the 50mm thickness at 400 mm/minute. It seems to me not that much. I never tried on real metal but it should be very poor...
Re: Chinese "for metal" 4-pole spindle
About the noise I never supposed the coils under power should vibrate like that, the noise is completely similar to normal spinning and if I decrease and increase the speed from Mach3 (with bit stopped) I can clearly feel the noise going up and down in accord with the supposed speed... It is really difficult to think is just vibration...
Re: Chinese "for metal" 4-pole spindle
The noise seems ok for a blocked rotor test.
Maybe you could try adjusting some parameters about stall prevention (over current for extra torque), torque compensation or slip compensation on your vfd.
Also I noticed your acceleration time is very high. I think you can tune your parameters a lot.
G wizard suggests 2500rpm and 1500onmm/min a 50mm dc 3mm wc. But tool deflection on a 12mm end mill is almost twice the recommended.the power for this cut is just about 500w cutting power, but at 2500rpm the torque willl be too high.
Can you try doing the cut in two passes.
25mm dc 3mm wc. 4000rpm and 1800mm/min. Just a suggestion. Power of cut is abot 300w.
Re: Chinese "for metal" 4-pole spindle
As for choice of spindle I asked about similar motor some time ago. Might find some more info there:
https://www.cnczone.com/forums/bench...ml#post2320636
2 Attachment(s)
Re: Chinese "for metal" 4-pole spindle
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ritzy321
I had nothing but problems with mine, never seemed to be able to produce anywhere near its rated power and stalled it. It also made some weird bearing noise and the inverter is labled as the better model a dzb300 when I think it's actually a dzb200.
In the end mactec was telling me I needed a 3kW or greater inverter to run a 2.2kW spindle and running it on my 20amp supply would not work (wouldn't it just trip my 20amp breaker?).
I ended up just buying a 2kW Teknomotor and 2.2kW Delta vfd haven't changed anything else and it cuts so much better.
The VFD Drive you brought with the spindle was not a good choice of VFD Drive what you have now is up with the best in VFD Drive performance so you can not compare with what you had :)
The VFD Drive when using Single Phase unless it is designed for Single Phase use you need a larger size VFD Drive, any manufacture will tell you this it is not just my idea that it needs to have more capacity when using Single Phase (wedge)
You have obvious not read your Delta VFD Manual, If you have you will see that your supply 20A Breaker for the VFD Drive you running on single phase is not suitable :)
The only reason you are getting away with it not tripping is you are doing very light cutting, you have a chance of over heating the input wiring before the 20 Amp Breaker would react, you need a 30Amp circuit to be safe to run this 2.2Kw Spindle and VFD Drive
Here is a snip of the basics of what is required to have a reliable system I have much more if you don't get it :wave:
Input conductor sizing.
NEC 430.122(A) requires that the conductors on the single phase input (supply) side of a drive are required to have a rated ampacity of at least 125% of the rated input current of the drive. The single phase input current will be approximately 1.73 – 2.0 times the three phase motor current due to the single to three phase conversion (plus some variable power loss in the drive). To address this, most drive manufacturers will require using a drive with a full load motor output current (or horsepower) rating that is twice the rating of the motor full load current rating (or horsepower). Although the drive will only be operating at ½ of its motor output rating, one phase of the drive input will be operating at the full input current rating of the drive.
Output conductor sizing.
The sizing of the conductors on the three phase output side of the drive (motor supply) are required by NEC 430.22 to have a rated ampacity of at least 125% of the motor full load current rating. As stated above, the output current will be what you would expect for the motor current rating, which is normally about half the rating of the drive output. In both the case of the drive input and output conductors, the sizing is a minimum requirement, larger conductors may be used however the wiring terminals and wiring methods have to be appropriately sized.
