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MX3660 with SainSmart Relay
I have four output available on my MX3660 and wanted to take advantage, rather than deal with mechanical relays I decided to buy a SainSmart 8 channel unit (link below). I've managed to get this to work, sort of, but I'm not doing something correctly. Here's how I have it hooked up currently, perhaps somebody can get me going in the right direction. Suffice it to say, I am an amateur at this.
5v connected to relay board.
5v running to Output 1-
Lead from Output 1+ to input 1 on relay board
Lead from Output 2+ to input 2 on relay board
The plan here is to use this for coolant (Output 1) and air blast (output 2). When I toggle coolant via my controller, the light I have connected to relay turns on and off about 80% of the time, but the other 20% it seems the relay is between states, so the light is on but kind of flickering. More troublesome is that Output 2 is changing states simultaneously with Output 1, meaning the relay 2 is switching with relay 1. My ports and pins are not set this way, so it would mean that my wiring obviously isn't proper.
I've tried connecting 5v+ to Output 1+, then running a lead from Output 1- to the relay input 1. I can't recall now, but either it didn't function or the results were the same.
Interestingly, the LEDs on the relay boards faintly glow on input 1 and 2 when in an off state, so some voltage is reach those inputs when it shouldn't be. Leading me to believe I need to add some resistors to the system. But I'm not experienced enough to know how that would be done.
Any and all advice is greatly appreciated.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1
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Re: MX3660 with SainSmart Relay
So, two things.
1. I looked at the documentation for those Solid State Relays and they are for switching an AC load.
2. What is the device that you are connecting to this board? Air blast and Coolant. Are they AC solenoids?
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Re: MX3660 with SainSmart Relay
The air blast is a pneumatic solenoid.
The coolant is just a pump (.5A).
Both are AC.
Like I mentioned I have successfully turned things on and off, but I occasionally get stuck between states on the SSR's (i'm not able to get it to go below the threshold to turn it off at times), and curiously one command is operating both outputs on the MX3660 (i believe because they are on a common ground of some variety).
I'm considering buying some of the below SSR's as I think wiring would be more straight forward, but the idea of the relay board sucked me in, it's just so clean inside the enclosure. Setup seemed straightforward until I actually had to do it.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...2R62OSH2&psc=1
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: MX3660 with SainSmart Relay
I may be wrong here, but:
I have never used the MX3660 but the manual says that the 4 general purpose outputs are open collector. This indicates that the output can sink current from the + terminal (Collector) to the - terminal (Emitter). You have the + voltage connected to the - terminal. This would be backwards for an NPN transistor.
Normally you would connect it up like this:
https://www.cnczone.com/forums/attac...d=427034&stc=1
The - output connected to ground will sink the current required to bring the + output low when the output is active. The resistor will pull the + output high when the output is not active. You can change the outputs active state to high or low in the configuration.
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Re: MX3660 with SainSmart Relay
Thanks for the drawing.
I think have the appropriate resistors at home to give this a shot tonight. I will report back.
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Re: MX3660 with SainSmart Relay
The only problem you may have is the state of the output when you power the system up. If the MX3660 lets the output float at startup, the resistor will pull the input to the relay up, thus activating the solenoid. Then as soon as you activate Mach, or whatever CAM you are using, the output will go to the state you have defined there.
This is less than optimal if it works that way. However we can figure a solution if it does.
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: MX3660 with SainSmart Relay
Thinking about it some more, you can connect it like this. Active High outputs with startup state of off, hopefully.
https://www.cnczone.com/forums/attac...d=427036&stc=1
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Re: MX3660 with SainSmart Relay
That's how I connected it the first time I set it up. It makes perfect sense to me, but I couldn't get it to work. I'll try again though.
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Re: MX3660 with SainSmart Relay
Your first post says that you have +5v connected to the - output. This has +5v connected to the + output.
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Re: MX3660 with SainSmart Relay
I also said "I've tried connecting 5v+ to Output 1+, then running a lead from Output 1- to the relay input 1. I can't recall now, but either it didn't function or the results were the same."
I'm fairly positive this did not function, but I will verify.
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Re: MX3660 with SainSmart Relay
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JerryGarcia
I also said "I've tried connecting 5v+ to Output 1+, then running a lead from Output 1- to the relay input 1. I can't recall now, but either it didn't function or the results were the same."
I'm fairly positive this did not function, but I will verify.
The MX3660 Ou1..Out4 appear to come from Darlington type Optocouplers so may have too much voltage
drop (as much as 1.5V) to run 5V SSRs reliably. You might need 6-7V on the + pin to guarantee operation
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Re: MX3660 with SainSmart Relay
OK, this is getting frustrating. I read one document that says one thing and another that says something else. So, now I dont know what to believe.
What you get with Chinese hardware.
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2 Attachment(s)
Re: MX3660 with SainSmart Relay
if you connect it this way
the SSR is switched on when the MX3660 output NPN transistor switches on
Attachment 427042
John
PS
connection to a SSR-40
Attachment 427044
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Re: MX3660 with SainSmart Relay
This diagram in their hardware manual version 1.2 shows both of my above connection methods. Output 3 and 4 are driving relays as active low devices and output 1 and 2 are driven as active high devices.
https://www.cnczone.com/forums/attac...d=427046&stc=1
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Re: MX3660 with SainSmart Relay
That achieved the same results as connecting V+ to Output 1-, and linking Output 1+ to Input 1.
Output 1 and 2 turn on simultaneously, despite me having Output 2 turned off in ports and pins. I've turned off all the other outputs just to be sure I've not got something crossed up in ports and pins.
If I connect only Output 1, I get stuck between states occasionally, resulting in a flickering light that's connected to the relay. This condition is reduced by connecting the wires for Output 2, but nothing is connected to the relay on output 2. The LED's on relay board are lit faintly all the time, they get bright solid when activated, but they are in the middle when I'm stuck between states. I can try to grab a video if that helps. I'll note, I don't even have 5v+ connected to Output 2+, only a lead from Output 2- to Input 2, yet Input 2 continues to work.
I'm wondering if my MX3660 isn't damaged in some way?
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Re: MX3660 with SainSmart Relay
Just for fun I moved my wire (the one that connects to the relay input) from Output 2- over to Output 3-. Same result, the LED on the relay board lights faintly before activating the port/pin. When activating the port/pin for Output 1, sure enough, Output 3 lights the LED on the relay board.
It seems the 5v applied at Output1+ carries down through all the outputs. I've not connected them externally.
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Re: MX3660 with SainSmart Relay
Also, John-100, I came across a previous post where you commented heavily regarding the MX3660 and I basically followed your guides there. This was from a few years ago. That's where I got the idea to buy the Tinawood units, but also where I decided to wire this unit basically as you and maxspongbob have suggested. Seems like I could have avoided this issue had I just bought those Tinawood units.
That said, I appreciate everybody's input on this! It means a lot to have a community of willing participants for this!
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Re: MX3660 with SainSmart Relay
the MX3660 manual has very little details but the MX4660 manual has a diagram with limited details with some errors !
The 1K resistor shown in series with the transistor collector is too high a resistance !
if the board is as shown with no protection from reverse polarity connection of the outputs
the opto-isolator could easily be damaged
Attachment 427080
John
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Re: MX3660 with SainSmart Relay
Thanks, I'll give it a shot with something like .7k, maybe .5k.
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2 Attachment(s)
Re: MX3660 with SainSmart Relay
is this the sainsmart 8x SSR relay board you are using ?
Attachment 427090
I have found a readable PDF circuit diagram !
Attachment 427092
which resistor are you thinking of changing or adding ?
the 1K resistor I am questioning is inside of the MX3660
its OK when your using a relay with a transistor amplifier / switch - like the SainSmart Relay board
but could be a problem if you directly connect a relay coil to the MX3660 output
depending on the supply voltage and coil resistance
only a week ago
I worked on a AXBB that had a faulty FET
AXBB charge pump fault - Page 4
not having a AXBB it was an iterative process in remotely finding the faulty component - photo in post 22 being the key
so the MX3660 is not the only stepper driver / breakout board that can have a problem
John
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Re: MX3660 with SainSmart Relay
I totally misinterpreted the drawing. I really need to take a class on fundamentals of this stuff.
I recently installed a C10 BOB as I needed additional inputs for encoder and some proximity sensors. Perhaps using the outputs on that would be more productive than fighting the MX3660. Or perhaps I just should buy the other solenoids?
I may try wiring as per Maxspongebob’s drawing earlier in the thread. If I could at least get a consistent state on the relay that would be nice. Eventually I will be adding a few pneumatic actuators as well. Getting a drawbar or tool changer stuck in flux would probably be a bad time.
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Re: MX3660 with SainSmart Relay
Here’s a video.
Note how the LED’s lit dimly despite being in an off state on the controller, then when the pin is activated they turn on fully. Also, sorry for the shaky video, I was recording and trying to touch my touchscreen on the controller.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FSOAfS...ature=youtu.be
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: MX3660 with SainSmart Relay
I have had a look at the video and see the LEDs are dimm when they should be off
Attachment 427110
whats the voltage between the SSR board input and common ground when it should be off ?
it could be either the MX3660 output is leaky
or possibly a earth loop is causing currents to flow along the SSR ground wire
and the resulting volt drop is just enough to switch on the LEDs to just start to light
do the solid state relays switch on ?
looking for information for the SSR board I found this -
Input control signal voltage:
0V - 0.5V Low stage (SSR is OFF),
0.5V - 2.5V (unknown state).
2.5V - 20V High state (SSR is ON).
John
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1 Attachment(s)
Re: MX3660 with SainSmart Relay
if you have connected the MX3660 output between the +5V supply and the SSR input like this
Attachment 427118
try adding a 1K5 resistor between the relay boards ground and input
then measure the voltage across the resistor both when the relay is on and when its off
the voltage across the added 1K5 resistor will indicate the resistance of resistor shown in the MX3660 manual
if it is 1K as shown in the manual
when switched on
the voltage across the added 1K5 resistor will be about 3V ( depending on the loss acros the opto-isolators transistor )
John
PS
without adding the 1K5 resistor between the SSR board input and GND
the transistor relay driver could sensitive enough to be picking up stray signals that cause the dim light from the LED indicator
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Re: MX3660 with SainSmart Relay
The SSR switches on/off, though sometimes gets caught in the unknown state, meaning the LED light in this video sort of flickers unpleasantly. I tried to catch it in the unknown state, of course it doesn't do it when the camera is on.
In the video I'm toggling Flood in mach3.
https://youtu.be/sjDd0g25Hrc
From the first video, note that output 3- on the MX3660 is connected to input 2 on the relay board (output 3+ is not connect to 5v+, only Output 3- is connected to input 2, this is visible at the end of the first video). The input 2 LED is lighting on the relay board despite the Output 3 pins being turned off in Mach3.
I haven't had time yet this evening to try the resistor between the ground and the input. My wife is ill, but once i get my 3 year old to bed I'll try to get out there.
I doubt a ground loop is an issue, I don't have any steppers or accessories connected as I am bench testing, also, my system was dead reliable before. I've added this SSR board, and the additional BOB (nothing is connected to it). But changes being changes, I suppose it's possible.
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Re: MX3660 with SainSmart Relay
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Re: MX3660 with SainSmart Relay
I get 0V (off) and 5V (on) across the 1k5 resistor. This solves the dimly lit LED issue when off.
The multiple output issue is persistent.
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Re: MX3660 with SainSmart Relay
Good a small step forward - the 1K resistor shown in the manual must be a link or a low resistance
Most importantly you have to look after your self so your able look after your family
next questions
how have you configured the C10 jumpers ?
how have you connected the C10 BOB to the MX3660 ?
there must be a conflict between the C10 and MX3660
the C10 BOB is unusual in using pin 18 to detect the printer cable is connected
PS
ignore the second question I was thinking of the MX4660's second port
you can still try disconnecting the C10 to see if every thing works when you go back to the original set up
PPS
are you using 2 PC parallel printer ports , a motion controller such as warp 9 's Ethernet Smooth Stepper that emulaters 3 printerports or a uc300eth ?
John
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Re: MX3660 with SainSmart Relay
The C10 is connected to the UC300eth-5lpt.
The behavior of the MX3660 outputs are consistent with the C10 removed or plugged in.
I have not even attempted to configure the C10 jumpers, I've been preoccupied with these MX3660 outputs. I'd like to be able to control a few items before I start worrying about the additional inputs that I needed the C10 for.
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3 Attachment(s)
Re: MX3660 with SainSmart Relay
I don't have an answer to all of the problems but
I have had a closer look at the SSR board and the G3MB Solid State Relay used on the board
and noticed there is not a "snubber " fitted across the SSR
a simple RC snubber is just a resistor connected in series with a capacitor
that is connected across the SSR's triac
Attachment 427182
others have a MOV added like this
ssr snubber network with a 220R resistor , 0.1uF capacitor and a MOV (metal-oxide varistor )
to clamp excessive transient voltages MOVs go form high resistance to low resistance
Attachment 427194
the SSR may not work correctly with some LED lights depending on the ballast used
or inductive loads
John
PS
this youtube video shows whats inside an ebay 25A Solid State Relay
that has snubber built in
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DxEhxjvifyY
the circuit diagram is at 4:37
PPS
another snubber from amazon (very like the one from ebay found earlier )
Attachment 427200
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/...26M8PYNT1YRNT7
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Re: MX3660 with SainSmart Relay
I think the hand writing is on the wall here. I need to buy the Fotek units. Continuing to mess with this relay board simply doesn't make any sense.
I certainly appreciate everybody's contribution here. It's been a real learning experience.
Once I get the new units and some time to tinker I'll update this thread.
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Re: MX3660 with SainSmart Relay
I got the Fotek units connected up. I ended up installing four of them, all running on 5v, all connected to the four outputs on the MX3660.
I can switch them all on and off, but they all have a bit of voltage when off. My LED light flickers a bit when the relay is off, my box fan runs very slowly when the relay is off, both items function as intended when the relay is on. I'm sure I need a a resister from something to something else. My brain isn't functioning too well. My wife has been in the hospital since Monday and I've been juggling work and our three year old and everything else. The half hour in the shop sure felt nice though. I might even manage a trip through the shower tonight.
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Re: MX3660 with SainSmart Relay
Shower is good. I'm sure your wife will appreciate it.
The thing about some solid state relays is that they never turn off completely. They leak a bit, especially the cheap one's from China. You could increase the load current and thus reduce the off state voltage at the output.
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Re: MX3660 with SainSmart Relay
My wife hasn't showered since like Sunday, she's been too sick to get out of bed for the most part. I don't think she noticed my lack of hygiene. She's improving though, she could come home as early as this evening.
The LED light I used to test with is basically on when the relay is off, though it flickers. It's about exactly the same as it was with the relay board before we added the 1.5k resister.
When you say increase load current do you mean just attach something larger to the load on the relay? With pneumatic solenoids and my coolant pump I'm not sure that's an option, not unless I add a incandescent light bulb in there or something.
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Re: MX3660 with SainSmart Relay
Came across this video, same guy that was posted earlier with the tear down on the Fotek unit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=tzWz_guJHvY
So yeah, I'll have to test with my pneumatic solenoids to see how they behave. I can plug my coolant pump in and see what it does while I'm at it.
Given the LED's are such low draw I can see how the leakage powers them, the box fan was a bit of surprise.
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Re: MX3660 with SainSmart Relay
Hope your wife will get better soon
Don't forget to look after your self , I know how hospital visits can take it out of you
The Fotek SSR in post 30 has a snubber made from a 10nF capacitor and a 47 ohm resistor in series
which I expect has solved some of the problems but passes enough current to cause the fans to run slowly and LED light flicker
depending on the current via the SSR's internal snubber and the threshold voltage the LED's light and the fan starts to turn
you may be able to fix the problem by adding a resistor as a load
( you have to find a resistance low enough to reduce the voltage across the load without dissipating too much power as heat )
or
connecting either a 47nF capacitor or another 470nF +100 ohm snubber across the fan or lamp supply terminals
example snubber
https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/rc-ne...itors/2067869/
to prove a snubber can work
connect a spare SSR across the lamp
by connecting terminals 1 & 2 across the lamp / fan
you effectively connect the spare SSR's snubber across the load
John
PS
Attachment 427798
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Re: MX3660 with SainSmart Relay
Thanks!
The main thing is that I have four distinct and switchable relays now, which is a huge improvement. I'm close to being functional again should I get the leakage worked out.
Any guess on what quantity of resistance I would need to control the leakage should I attempt that?
I can test with the SSR as a shunt this evening as well.
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Re: MX3660 with SainSmart Relay
whats you mains supply voltage ?
120 V AC as in NA
or
230V AC as in Europe ( in my part of the UK my supply is over 240V AC)
with a 240V supply you could try 68K ( 68000 ohms) 1 W
John
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Re: MX3660 with SainSmart Relay
I’m in the US, so 110/120 AC.
Edit: fat fingers, lazy proofing
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Re: MX3660 with SainSmart Relay
for a 120 V AC supply you can use a 15 K (15000 ohm ) 1W resistor to test
for long term use use a 2W resistor
120/15000 = 8 mA
120V x 8 mA = 0.96 W
for 140V supply use a 22 K resistor
140 / 22000 = 0.006 mA
140V x 0.006 mA = 0.89 W
use a 2W resistor
John