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re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ntl
I would like to know the same as far as what type of damage will be caused by the mounting surfaces not being flat or parallel.
Dan
Dan,
I've seen the often, but never an answer. To you have a lawyer like answer, it depends. For instance, out-of-parallel by .002" is going to yield a very different life span than being out by .040". It's going to be pretty machine specific. Honestly, I doubt that anyone has tried to quantify it and reported out on it. We can reasonably conclude that with such tight tolerances, any deviation is bound to have a negative effect. Otherwise, why publish the tolerances? They matter. If things are out so much that there's an obvious bind, life may be pretty short. If all seems smooth, the rails/blocks may outlast you (or maybe not). I'd think with the problem Erik describe, life would be on the shorter side. I doubt you are going to get a clearer answer.
Gary
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re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GME
Dan,
I've seen the often, but never an answer. To you have a lawyer like answer, it depends. For instance, out-of-parallel by .002" is going to yield a very different life span than being out by .040". It's going to be pretty machine specific. Honestly, I doubt that anyone has tried to quantify it and reported out on it. We can reasonably conclude that with such tight tolerances, any deviation is bound to have a negative effect. Otherwise, why publish the tolerances? They matter. If things are out so much that there's an obvious bind, life may be pretty short. If all seems smooth, the rails/blocks may outlast you (or maybe not). I'd think with the problem Erik describe, life would be on the shorter side. I doubt you are going to get a clearer answer.
Gary
That's what I'm hoping for, if I can get it close and don't feel any noticeable drag or binding that things will last until I decide to get a new machine. It would just suck do to the labor if the bearings wear out quickly. I seriously doubt the liniar rails can go bad and obviously none of machined parts aside from the pinion gears worry me. I suppose if the bearings went it would give me a excuse to have the steel frame machined since it wouldn't be much more labor once the gantry was removed. If the original steel tube gantry would have had the holes driled tapped properly I would have already had it machined flat in all the crucial areas. Since it wasn't it would be less work to just make a new one from scratch and have everything machined, that still may be a option I'm just not sure I want to keep polishing a turd if you know what I mean.
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re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wmgeorge
In your haste to "be right" you must of missed the " ground flat" in my reply.
Please show us the pictures of the machines your making, selling and exporting so we know how to do it right.
Oh and BTW my machine was not heated and stress relieved and it works fine.
ADDED: So Gary GME is building a new machine from 80/20 aluminum extrusions, as have been thousands of others done. I am sure they do not meet the .0005 in all planes criteria above. So are all these machines therefore junk? I am looking forward to see the machines your making, please post pictures. Thank you.
You have to have an understanding of what happens if you Grind CR most times the flatness is worse after it is Ground, it would have to be welded in place, stress relieved and then Ground to be of any use what's so ever
Yes the extrusions don't get anywhere near where it has to be for linear rail mounting but one company does machine the extrusion for mounting Linear Rails
Your machine may be working well but every time you use it the Linear Bearing will be wearing more than normal, who knows how long it will last nobody can answer that question
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re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GME
I guess I got lucky, although I took an extraordinary amount of care in prep and assembly. I know it's highly unlikely that my Hiwin assemblies meet the published specs, but I can say that everything moves the same, whether individually, loose or tight. I know, because I checked it as part of my assembly setup checklist. Movement was the same in all circumstances. Stiff, but consistently smooth. Perfect? Probably not. Close enough that I cannot detect any difference? Yes. I attribute some of my success to my design and the care I took milling the extrusions for square ends and for length. I would have milled rail mounting surfaces, but my mill isn't even close to large enough for that. Also, there is no practical way to take a bolt together machine to an industrial mill. Too many opportunities going and coming to knock the frame out of alignment. Too much to go wrong. Welded steel is a completely different matter.
Morale of the story: If you can afford it and are willing to part with the money, buy a welded, stress relieved and milled CNC. I can afford it, but am not willing to part with the money at this point in my retirement. So, I either accept the compromises inherent in my decisions, or I forego a CNC altogether. I chose the former, which is apparently a choice you would never make. Good for you for being able to stick to your principles. I wish we were all so lucky.
Gary
If the Bearings have enough clearance in them then you would not notice any difference when mounted on extrusion, Standard Linear Bearing can have up to .004" or .1mm clearance
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re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
That was why i spent extra money for good quality German made extrusion. Also the company supplying it in Australia cut it very precise...
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re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
Yes, it depends on the preload of the bearings. The higher the preload, the more precise the mounting surfaces need to be. The specs I mentioned above were for light preload. As the preload goes up, the tolerances get much tighter.
All the Hiwin catalog says it that the bearings will wear faster. How much would depend on how much deviation you have.
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re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
But if its not binding and cutting square is it still wearing? Everything wears, its part of the cost of using a machine. I doubt a hobby user would wear one out if its not binding, and if its does.... buy a new set of bearings after 20 years or so. Its amazing we have not heard these complaints over on the CNCRP area.
Gary Campbell does a fine job and I have seen pictures of his work posted, IF I had a commercial shop and needed a machine I would have one of his for sure.
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Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mactec54
If the Bearings have enough clearance in them then you would not notice any difference when mounted on extrusion, Standard Linear Bearing can have up to .004" or .1mm clearance
FWIW, mine have a medium preload, so the tolerances are tighter than Standard (light preload). I'm not quarreling with anything you've said about linear rail wear when installed on imperfect surface. You've put out good information for any prospective buyer or builder.
I expect that mine will wear more than they than they would on properly prepared surfaces. How much? I guess time will tell.
If I had a commercial shop, I would buy a commercial quality machine. I hope mine outlast me, but since I'm just a hobbyist, I can justify buying a new set of rails and blocks, if the need arises. Still way cheaper than buying or building a commercial quality machine.
Also FWIW, it's iffy whether one would ever get extrusion-based routers to linear rail spec. They are bolted together, after all. Whether milling the extrusions themselves, or adding plates for milling, the completed frame would have to be taken to the machine shop for milling or grinding. The chances of introducing some misalignment during transport - whether coming or going - are a probably high. Then, when the machine gets back to the shop, the surfaces will be only as good one's ability to reestablish perfect alignment. I believe it could be done, but would be a tough job. IMO, the only way to ensure a proper finished product would be using welded steel, stress relief, and then milling/grinding on a suitable large format machine. But then, you are back to a commercial/industrial grade machine. I guess that's why so many hobbyists opt to compromise quality for price. IMO, what important is to recognize and understand the limitations and consequences of going with extrusions.
Having said all this, I do quarrel with the notion that using linear rails on extrusion-based machines is a total waste, which seems to be your position. Clearly less than optimal, but I'm doubt anyone really knows what to expect over time. We could get a nasty surprise, or a pleasant one. Only time will tell.
Gary
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Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wmgeorge
But if its not binding and cutting square is it still wearing? Everything wears, its part of the cost of using a machine. I doubt a hobby user would wear one out if its not binding, and if its does.... buy a new set of bearings after 20 years or so. Its amazing we have not heard these complaints over on the CNCRP area.
Bill, I question whether you can correlate cutting square with wear. You can always force the gantry square (to a limited degree with a welded gantry) when homing, but not so much as to cause obvious binding. So the machine may cut square, but still over stress the bearings and cause premature wear. How much wear is an open question.
I believe it is premature to expect to hear much about the topic on the CNCRP forum. It hasn't been that long since CNCRP switched over to linear rails on its pro machines. Time may show that it it works well, or they don't hold up. IMO, it's too soon to tell.
Gary
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Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ericks
That was why i spent extra money for good quality German made extrusion. Also the company supplying it in Australia cut it very precise...
You are lucky. I spent hours milling the ends of my extrusions square and to equal length. As far as flatness, mine seem pretty good. Part of it is the material; part my design.
Gary
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Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wmgeorge
But if its not binding and cutting square is it still wearing? Everything wears, its part of the cost of using a machine. I doubt a hobby user would wear one out if its not binding, and if its does.... buy a new set of bearings after 20 years or so. Its amazing we have not heard these complaints over on the CNCRP area.
Gary Campbell does a fine job and I have seen pictures of his work posted, IF I had a commercial shop and needed a machine I would have one of his for sure.
There have been posts where hobby users have replace the Linear Bearings, they do not have to be binding for them to wear, 20years good luck with that, hobby users have more than just alignment problems, lubrication corrosion and dust adds to the wear problems as well
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Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
There have been posts where hobby users have replace the Linear Bearings, they do not have to be binding for them to wear, 20years good luck with that, hobby users have more than just alignment problems, lubrication corrosion and dust adds to the wear problems as well
So what do linear bearing blocks cost? I see USA sourced bearing blocks on a rail for $350 per side on EBay? So if they last 10 years, its a cost of what? I never see posts of anyone replacing any?
So Gary Campbell has posted pictures of his builds, how are you doing yours that are headed for the commercial market and export? Pictures like Gary posted would tell us.
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Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
Quote:
Having said all this, I do quarrel with the notion that using linear rails on extrusion-based machines is a total waste, which seems to be your position. Clearly less than optimal, but I'm doubt anyone really knows what to expect over time.
I'd argue that linear rails bolted to extrusion are still better than any other system on an extrusion based machine.
The quality of the bearings probably also comes into play, as many machines are using Chinese "off brand" rails and bearings.
I'd expect genuine, name brand bearings to last longer as their tolerances and quality are probably much better. You get what you pay for.
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Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wmgeorge
There have been posts where hobby users have replace the Linear Bearings, they do not have to be binding for them to wear, 20years good luck with that, hobby users have more than just alignment problems, lubrication corrosion and dust adds to the wear problems as well
So what do linear bearing blocks cost? I see USA sourced bearing blocks on a rail for $350 per side on EBay? So if they last 10 years, its a cost of what? I never see posts of anyone replacing any?
So Gary Campbell has posted pictures of his builds, how are you doing yours that are headed for the commercial market and export? Pictures like Gary posted would tell us.
Bill,
Here's a thread from back in 2011. I believe it should satisfy at least some of your curiosity. I'm satisfied he's the real deal.
https://www.cnczone.com/forums/cnc-w...ld-friend.html
Here's another thread you might find interesting:
https://www.cnczone.com/forums/cnc-w...dle-build.html
Gary
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Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ger21
I'd argue that linear rails bolted to extrusion are still better than any other system on an extrusion based machine.
The quality of the bearings probably also comes into play, as many machines are using Chinese "off brand" rails and bearings.
I'd expect genuine, name brand bearings to last longer as their tolerances and quality are probably much better. You get what you pay for.
+1
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Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GME
+1
And except for one or two persons comments to the contrary, this is something I would not loose sleep over Gary, its going to work and be just fine. If its not binding the chances of you and I wearing our machines out is pretty darn slim!! If it does... will replace as needed.
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Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wmgeorge
And except for one or two persons comments to the contrary, this is something I would not loose sleep over Gary, its going to work and be just fine. If its not binding the chances of you and I wearing our machines out is pretty darn slim!! If it does... will replace as needed.
Thanks, Bill. I'm not worried and haven't been. I've been aware of the limitations all along and went to extraordinary lengths to minimize them. I believe mactec54 and Gary Campbell were correct in sounding an alarm. On the other hand, like Gerry, I believe linear rails arguably the best alternative for extrusion-based machines. As you point out, excessive wear can always be addressed with "replace as needed" - assuming it shows up sometime downstream. Unfortunately, high quality rails and bearing blocks (e.g., Hiwin) are a major expense. Peruse this site to see what I mean: https://motionconstrained.com/ This is where I bought mine. Shipping was included. The prices were the best I found.
I don't know what to say about your Saturn. If you're happy with the way it runs, that's what's important. I am pleased you got one of the good ones - maybe the last good one.
Gary
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Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GME
Thanks, Bill. I'm not worried and haven't been. I've been aware of the limitations all along and went to extraordinary lengths to minimize them. I believe mactec54 and Gary Campbell were correct in sounding an alarm. On the other hand, like Gerry, I believe linear rails arguably the best alternative for extrusion-based machines. As you point out, excessive wear can always be addressed with "replace as needed" - assuming it shows up sometime downstream. Unfortunately, high quality rails and bearing blocks (e.g., Hiwin) are a major expense. Peruse this site to see what I mean: https://motionconstrained.com/ This is where I bought mine. Shipping was included. The prices were the best I found.
I don't know what to say about your Saturn. If you're happy with the way it runs, that's what's important. I am pleased you got one of the good ones - maybe the last good one.
Gary
So are the rails and blocks sold as matched sets or can you buy the bearing blocks sold separate?
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Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
You can buy individual bearing blocks, individual rails or rail/bearing block sets. I've assumed that if there is wear sufficient to warrant replacement, you'd replace the set.
Gary
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Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
To test out if the extrusions under the rails will help me get things right, I am going to design some parts I can 3d print out of polycarbonate blend I have on hand. If they work well enough I may just leave them in place, also if they work well I will post up a link to the file for others to print or have printed. I'm trying to decide how extensive I want to make them...for example making them so you can adjust "toe in / toe out" as far as flatness goes. On my last and final attempt to parallel the rails, I had one rail tightened down and it rolled very smoothly with the other rail loose...when I tried the same test with the rails reversed (swapped tight and loose rails) the action was back to being with much more drag...seemed odd to me.
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Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Erik F
To test out if the extrusions under the rails will help me get things right, I am going to design some parts I can 3d print out of polycarbonate blend I have on hand. If they work well enough I may just leave them in place, also if they work well I will post up a link to the file for others to print or have printed. I'm trying to decide how extensive I want to make them...for example making them so you can adjust "toe in / toe out" as far as flatness goes. On my last and final attempt to parallel the rails, I had one rail tightened down and it rolled very smoothly with the other rail loose...when I tried the same test with the rails reversed (swapped tight and loose rails) the action was back to being with much more drag...seemed odd to me.
Erik,
Yes, the results of your test seem odd. Sounds to me like one or both of the rails isn't perfectly straight. Not that odd, though. I've searched for, but never found, a manufacturing tolerance for straightness. I also seem to recall one vendor commenting on its website that the rails may not be perfectly straight 'out of the box,' so to speak. I believe that is why having a milled reference edge is preferred for rail mounting. You can clamp the rail to the edge and tighten it down. I used custom jigs and a precision straight edge when I set mine, but I had a relatively flat surface to work from. Apparently, you don't.
I do not believe anything you can make on a 3d printer is going to be up to the task of making an adequate linear rail surface. IMO, printed parts may be fine for making prototypes for testing, but not for a solution. I can't imagine plastic being even close to rigid enough. Also, not much strength for screw holding and threads holding up under vibration. However, making prototypes for testing purposes seems like a perfect diagnostic approach and modeling for a permanent solution.
Here's a reference source that includes information for mounting linear rails. You may find it useful. https://www.hiwin.com/pdf/linear_guideways.pdf
Gary
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Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wmgeorge
So are the rails and blocks sold as matched sets or can you buy the bearing blocks sold separate?
This depends on the grade matched rails and bearings have a numbers lasered etched on the rail and Bearing, regular standard linear rails because they have running clearance you can get replacement's, if needed, I will post some photos of matched Rails and Bearings in a few days, as I'm away from my shop
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Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mactec54
This depends on the grade matched rails and bearings have a numbers lasered etched on the rail and Bearing, regular standard linear rails because they have running clearance you can get replacement's, if needed, I will post some photos of matched Rails and Bearings in a few days, as I'm away from my shop
Enjoy your vacation Thanks for checking.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
GME
Erik,
Yes, the results of your test seem odd. Sounds to me like one or both of the rails isn't perfectly straight. Not that odd, though. I've searched for, but never found, a manufacturing tolerance for straightness. I also seem to recall one vendor commenting on its website that the rails may not be perfectly straight 'out of the box,' so to speak. I believe that is why having a milled reference edge is preferred for rail mounting. You can clamp the rail to the edge and tighten it down. I used custom jigs and a precision straight edge when I set mine, but I had a relatively flat surface to work from. Apparently, you don't.
I do not believe anything you can make on a 3d printer is going to be up to the task of making an adequate linear rail surface. IMO, printed parts may be fine for making prototypes for testing, but not for a solution. I can't imagine plastic being even close to rigid enough. Also, not much strength for screw holding and threads holding up under vibration. However, making prototypes for testing purposes seems like a perfect diagnostic approach and modeling for a permanent solution.
Here's a reference source that includes information for mounting linear rails. You may find it useful. https://www.hiwin.com/pdf/linear_guideways.pdf
Gary
Thanks I will check out the link. Just as an exercise in frustration I decided instead of just loosening the bolts for the rails I would take them completely out of one side. Then I wanted to see if I could get the rails lined up regardless of the mounting holes. I found I couldn't get the movement I needed without loosening the gantry bolts and taking off the braces...I have to tell you the braces are pretty ugly...kind of looks like when you were 10 yrs old and you needed to make the hole bigger...you just wiggle the drill around...that is how these holes looked...not surprised but the disappointment never seems to end.
The good news is with the gantry free on one side and the rails parallel...the gantry roles quite nicely...I wouldn't say glides...but roles. If I gave it a shove it would role for a good foot after that. Where as before...it was almost like the brakes were dragging...a shove would move it but it would stop right away. Unfortunately there is only about 4 or 5 bolts that line up in the rail to the frame when it's like that. Putting all the bolts back in resulted in the same old out by about a 1/16th from end to end. I did decide to not torque the rails down. I tightened them to where they would stop and gave them another 1/8th of a turn or so and even with the rails not quite parallel the results where pretty smooth movement. I will go back tomorrow and get the rails back lined up and just put in the only bolts that fit...kinda sad what seems like such good potential is such a pile of crap.
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Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Erik F
Thanks I will check out the link. Just as an exercise in frustration I decided instead of just loosening the bolts for the rails I would take them completely out of one side. Then I wanted to see if I could get the rails lined up regardless of the mounting holes. I found I couldn't get the movement I needed without loosening the gantry bolts and taking off the braces...I have to tell you the braces are pretty ugly...kind of looks like when you were 10 yrs old and you needed to make the hole bigger...you just wiggle the drill around...that is how these holes looked...not surprised but the disappointment never seems to end.
The good news is with the gantry free on one side and the rails parallel...the gantry roles quite nicely...I wouldn't say glides...but roles. If I gave it a shove it would role for a good foot after that. Where as before...it was almost like the brakes were dragging...a shove would move it but it would stop right away. Unfortunately there is only about 4 or 5 bolts that line up in the rail to the frame when it's like that. Putting all the bolts back in resulted in the same old out by about a 1/16th from end to end. I did decide to not torque the rails down. I tightened them to where they would stop and gave them another 1/8th of a turn or so and even with the rails not quite parallel the results where pretty smooth movement. I will go back tomorrow and get the rails back lined up and just put in the only bolts that fit...kinda sad what seems like such good potential is such a pile of crap.
Seems like your experience was the same as mine. I saw a welded frame and a lot of hype on the website about how well built it was. I fell in love on the spot. What a great machine! Going to exceed my every expectation. Yeah, right. When the machine arrived, the first thing I saw after removing the OxBox were washers between the welded on mounting plate and the aluminum interface plate. At that moment, I knew the machine had serious problems. As you've seen, it was downhill from there. Pretty much everything I checked as way off. Still, I was in love, and as they say, "love conquers all." Well, after spending far too much time trying to come up with fixes, I remembered one of life's lessons. Love at first sight is mostly lust at first sight and doesn't last. I knew I would come to hate the Saturn 2 and rue the day I ever laid eyes on it. So, I declared it a totally defective fail, sent it back. Fortunately, I came to my senses pretty quickly and was able to get my money back. I feel so bad for you.
I guess I didn't recall that the 2 x 4s used a steel gantry, but used bolt-on braces rather than welded ones used on the 4 x 4s. My first machine was the Fineline 4 x 4 standard kit with an upgraded 3" x 6" aluminum extrusion gantry with the 1/4" aluminum angle and the 1" x 2" angle braces. Looks like the quality of the angle brace has gone to the devil as well. My angle braces were fine. I didn't much like the design, so I designed my own braces, which make a much more rigid connection.
Maybe a first step would be to replace the steel gantry with an 80/20 3060 aluminum extrusion.. Dan (NTL) did that on his. However, the angle brace setup Nate uses does not allow adjustability, when it comes to trying to square the gantry. My design takes care of all that. If you haven't looked at my build thread yet, you may want to. You can see how I did it. Unfortunately it takes a mill, or a rigid CNC to make the parts. My bench top is a manual mill. It took days to make the parts. I got quotes for the parts. They would have cost almost as much as I paid for my mill - crazy expensive. That's why I made them.
If I were to give my gantry a good shove, I doubt it would roll for a foot. However, I have medium load bearings, so the tolerances are closer and it won't roll as freely. It's smooth as silk, but stiffer. Yours are almost certainly a light preload, which is what the Chinese typically use in theirs. Nothing wrong with a light preload. It's pretty common.
Odd that you have to loosen one side of the gantry, with the rails loose, to get free movement. Something's obviously out of line. I'm wondering whether the gantry is bowed up or down. That would explain what you are seeing. The bow would throw the mounting surfaces out of plane, and that, in turn, would cause a binding point. If you have a reliable straight edge, you could check it out. In a pinch, you could also stretch a piece of wire over the top and under the bottom and see what you get. You would need to remove the gantry, though. If you still think you want to rehabilitate the machine, it needs to be done.
At some point, you should take some photos and post them. Too much trying to visualize the issues in my head to be of much help, and I'm not alone. Not hard to do with a cell phone. I have a camera, but have taken some with a cell. Download the pics or email them to your computer and your on your way.
Gary
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Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
Of course the $7000 question, is Nate or FLA still in business?? This site link is still active on his website so current owners with issues can come here and comment or complain. Just wondering.
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2 Attachment(s)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wmgeorge
Of course the $7000 question, is Nate or FLA still in business?? This site link is still active on his website so current owners with issues can come here and comment or complain. Just wondering.
See the attached pictures. Nate now is a Edward Jones financial advisor. His profile shows that he was president of Fineline until 2018.
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Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
Its more or less common knowledge that FLA was not his full time job. But is surprising is that as of June 2018 he now longer lists on his Resume FLA or was that the date the above was prepared and shared on the internet?
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https://photos.app.goo.gl/fSTkWVUZpBMZViw68
Here is a link to pics. They are of the extreme ends of the rails and the brace holes. This is with the rails parallel to the accuracy of my tape measure and eyeball.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
wmgeorge
Its more or less common knowledge that FLA was not his full time job. But is surprising is that as of June 2018 he now longer lists on his Resume FLA or was that the date the above was prepared and shared on the internet?
I just grabbed the screenshot this morning
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Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
Well if you really want to fix this right, my suggestion above and from 6 months ago and I still believe to be a good solution. Your going to need to do better than a tape measure and an eyeball. You can make I think is called a witness stick only using some drill stock or flat CR steel and dial indicator. A piece cut to a pre- defined length and the dial indicator mounted on the other end. No its not precision only to a few thousands but better than trial and error as your doing now. Gary GME posted a link above that can give you other ideas.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by
wmgeorge
Well if you really want to fix this right, my suggestion above and from 6 months ago and I still believe to be a good solution. Your going to need to do better than a tape measure and an eyeball. You can make I think is called a witness stick only using some drill stock or flat CR steel and dial indicator. A piece cut to a pre- defined length and the dial indicator mounted on the other end. No its not precision only to a few thousands but better than trial and error as your doing now. Gary GME posted a link above that can give you other ideas.
Yeah, as of right now was really trying to see if there were maybe a few bolt holes that were holding me back from being able to wack this thing into alignment but seems it's just way to jacked up to use the original holes. My plan was to get some aluminum stock and use it as a spacer to get them perfect. But I will also figure a way out to mount an indicator on there too. I think Dan mentioned filling in the holes. Would I be able to do that with just a mig welder since it shouldn't be that much heat? I can get my hands on a mig...and get by but have no idea how to tig.
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Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
Yes you can mig them, just take your time and bounce around do one hole then go to the other side and don't let it heat up. It's pretty thick material but like I said do a hole let it cool down do a different hole on the other side and so on. Also make sure you grind the powder coat all the way off around the holes so the weld doesn't get contaminated.
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Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
Only issue with MIG welding the holes shut is the welded area is going to be harder than the steel used. You will have great difficultly drilling and tapping new holes without breaking a drill bit or tap. Yes I have done TIG welding and IF I did that I would use stainless rod which would be tougher than carbon steel rod but flows a lot faster and easier. With TIG the metal would have to be absolutely clean.
So this machine is a 2x4 foot and was done prior to the Saturn 2. Can you post a picture of your machine?
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I will take some pics when I get home tonight. It basically is a Saturn 2 but has the Saturn 1 bracing instead of the welded bracing
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Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Erik F
I will take some pics when I get home tonight. It basically is a Saturn 2 but has the Saturn 1 bracing instead of the welded bracing
It's the same as my machine.
George is right about a tig welder being better, you still can use a mig if you drill out the holes so you are only drilling into the weld it's just going to be harder to drill through. Another option is to drill out the suspect holes oversized tap them with a bigger size use a long bolt that you can thread in to where it bottoms out in the tube, apply loctite cut the head off the bolt and grind it flush, then drill and tap the bolt aka plug. No heat involved no welding just a drill, tap, grinder, loctite some labor and some choice words for fineline that you will be thinking about while working on it. .
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Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ntl
It's the same as my machine.
George is right about a tig welder being better, you still can use a mig if you drill out the holes so you are only drilling into the weld it's just going to be harder to drill through. Another option is to drill out the suspect holes oversized tap them with a bigger size use a long bolt that you can thread in to where it bottoms out in the tube, apply loctite cut the head off the bolt and grind it flush, then drill and tap the bolt aka plug. No heat involved no welding just a drill, tap, grinder, loctite some labor and some choice words for fineline that you will be thinking about while working on it. .
Some of the mounting holes look like they are off enough that it would take a pretty large oversize bolt to be able to then drill and tap it.
Ditto on the MIG weld plug being a beast to drill and tap. Without a magnetic drill press, (or maybe even with one) I question whether you could pull it off.
TIG is definitely a better option, but it takes practice to do it right. If you've never done it, you'll spend most of your time on a grinding wheel cleaning and sharpening your tungstens. If you have a friend with a TIG and willingness to help you out, I wouldn't be inclined to use stainless rod. (Sorry Bill, and no disrespect meant. I suspect you and I have probably had different experiences). Stainless is a dog to drill and tap. It work hardens something awful. I've filled my share of holes with my TIG, but I have to admit that I've never tried creating a plug to be drilled and tapped. So, I can't say whether you would get the same hardening problems problems with the TIG as with a MIG.
I guess I'd be inclined to go back to suggestions made on my Saturn 2 build thread. Forget the existing threaded holes. Add a plate, whether it's steel or aluminum, drill the rail mounting holes in it, and create slotted holes closer to the edges of the plate for mounting it. The slotted holes will give you lateral adjustability for mounting the plate and getting the linear rails parallel to each other. I believe Dan (NTL) suggested adding set screws get the plates in the same plane. Were I doing it, once I had the plate where I wanted them, I would inject a special epoxy under the plates to fill any gaps and provide more support - like the expanses between the set screws where you would experience flex. This is way different than epoxy leveling, which is more likely to fail than succeed. This is just using epoxy as a filler material between two fixed surfaces. You would leave the set screws in place to continue fulfilling their support duties.
Another thread to look at is Jack/Ponder Labs Saturn 2 build thread. Lots of suggestions there too and you reading them will save having to repeat them here. Here's the link: https://www.cnczone.com/forums/finel...cnc-forum.html.
Erik, I see what you mean about the aluminum angle braces. I would have to try really hard to mess them up as badly as yours. The size of the burrs is considerable, and are probably enough to cause some degree of binding them the brace is tightened down. They are clearly indicative of the holes in the braces not lining up in either the holes in the gantry, holes in the interface plates, or both. It might help to file off the burr back to flat surfaces, but you shouldn't hold your breath. Cannot hurt to try, though. No out-of-pocket costs and minimal effort involved.
I'm still thinking you may be better off scrapping the steel gantry and going with a 3060 80/20 extrusion. the 3060 profile is pretty pricey, but in the aluminum extrusion world, it's about as good as you are going to find. The metric counterpart is slightly larger (80mm x 160mm) in most every way. Although marginally so, it should be a bit stiffer than the imperial. I went with the 80mm x 160mm extrusion, but for reasons unrelated to stiffness or strength. I'd add a 3/8" interface that mounts to the underside of the gantry and mounts to the top of the interface plate that mounts to the linear rail bearings. If you do it like I did, you have a huge amount of adustability for square. It also allows you to fabricate angle bracing that is far superior than the 1" x 2" braces yours came with. Your angle braces might actually work with an extrusion gantry. That's what they were used on originally.
Gary
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Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
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Originally Posted by
wmgeorge
So this machine is a 2x4 foot and was done prior to the Saturn 2. Can you post a picture of your machine?
Bill, I don't think so. Recall that David Falkner's Saturn used an extrusion gantry with the same angle braces as Erik. When it went to Saturn 2, the gantry moved from aluminum to steel, but the revision did not include welded angle braces and mounting plates like the 4 x 4. The current version is a sort of hybrid. Here's a picture from the FLA website:
https://www.cnczone.com/forums/attac...d=422744&stc=1
Gary
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Another long day at work. Sorry will try and get pics tomorrow.
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Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
I thought David had the first Saturn 2 or one of the first anyway. Stainless in metal that thin as used on the frame anyway would not be an issue to drill and tap, If you have the proper sharp drill and tap was a 2 flute gun tap as I use. But my suggestion from months ago was the plate with slotted mounting holes. No need to weld and re-drill existing. Wether its ground flat or not is not an issue but as long is your machinist is doing the slotted holes a little surface grinding would be no big deal.
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Re: Fineline Shutdown or Perpetrating a Fraud!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wmgeorge
I thought David had the first Saturn 2 or one of the first anyway. Stainless in metal that thin as used on the frame anyway would not be an issue to drill and tap, If you have the proper sharp drill and tap was a 2 flute gun tap as I use. But my suggestion from months ago was the plate with slotted mounting holes. No need to weld and re-drill existing. Wether its ground flat or not is not an issue but as long is your machinist is doing the slotted holes a little surface grinding would be no big deal.
Bill, I went back and checked David's build thread. Looks like it his is a Saturn, not Saturn 2. He identified it as a Saturn and his has the extrusion gantry (vs. the Saturn 2's steel gantry).
I agree with the slotted holes idea, although there is no need to fill/redrill any of the holes. Rather, just shift the rails to the front or rear a little and start over with mounting holes. Unfortunately, that doesn't solve all the problems. There is still the problem of the dished face of the tubing. There is also the problem of drilling/tapping 2 parallel lines of holes. 25mm linear rails have very little adjustability. The mounting hole is 7mm and the mounting screw is 6mm, so only about .040" difference. I don't trust that I could reliably get that straight of a line freehand. It would be tough, even if you had a magnetic drill press - you would still have to get it aligned correctly for each hole. Blow it for one hole and you're back to plug welding and redrilling/tapping. That makes the slotted holes look much more attractive - even though it also means paying a machine shop to make the plates. You still need a larger mill, because you will be dealing with multiple vises and multiple set ups to get full length plates. 5 feet+ is way more X axis travel than you find on a typical knee mill and a lot of VMCs.
All-in-all, it's a tough situation. The deficiencies in the frame, mounting surfaces and parallelism can probably be accommodated, but at what cost?
SUGGESTION: Erik, draw the fix and take to some machine shops for estimates. That way, you know what you are up against cost wise, and whether it's financial feasible for you. Remember, you still may have some issues with the gantry that need addressing. Given what Nate or his machine shop did to the angle braces suggest something will need to addressed there as well.
Gary