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IndustryArena Forum > MetalWorking Machines > Haas Machines > Haas Mills > Programmed to travel 2.0000", only reaches 1.9990" on X axis
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  1. #1

    Programmed to travel 2.0000", only reaches 1.9990" on X axis

    Hello all,

    The title really says it all but for a little more context I will explain my problem. All units are in Inches

    The machine is a 2020 Haas VF2SS. The company bought the machine and it sat for two years until I was hired a few months ago. I've always had trouble with true positions, mainly .005" TP or tighter. To day I decided to check for backlash (which shouldn't be an issue but worth checking anyway.)

    All the values in the compensation tables were set to 0 or "Empty". I put my magnetic base on the vise with a 2" Drop indicator against the spindle on the X axis (I also tried with a .0001 Test indicator). All equipment used is Brand New, I bought it when I was hired. I am the only machinist, one man show, so no one has messed with the machines or equipment. Anyway, I zeroed the indicators at the middle of their travel, 1" on the Drop indicator and .004" on the Test indicator. I returned to zero, kept the travel direction the same, etc.
    The results are as follows on X axis:
    Machine Jogged +1.0000", Indicator read .9995"
    Machine Jogged -1.0000" , Indicator read -.9995"
    Zeroed at -1.0000", Jogged 2.0000" and Indicator read 1.9990"

    The results are as follows on Y axis:
    Machine Jogged +1.0000", Indicator read .9999"
    Machine Jogged -1.0000" , Indicator read -.9999"
    Zeroed at -1.0000", Jogged 2.0000" and Indicator read 1.99985"

    I added values to the compensation table but it does not help with this issue. Is this not backlash? The engineer I was working with told me its a calibration issue. I have a hard time understanding how this is possible on a brand new machine. On other forums I've seen explanations ranging from "replace thruster" to "It's a haas, thats what they do"

    I had a job come in with a TP of .0005" and i tried every trick in the book, the closest I got was .0004 TP on one hole, on one part.

    TLDR: I am having trouble holding True position. checked for backlash, compensation table did not make a difference. it under travels by .0010" in the X + and - direction over 2" and under travels .0002" in the Y + and - direction over 2"

    Any information would help me at this point. I have a haas tech coming in, is there something I should ask him to do while he's here?

  2. #2

    Re: Programmed to travel 2.0000", only reaches 1.9990" on X axis

    is the position of the part being measured on the machine that made the part , by hand , or on a cmm ? What brand are your dials and bases , I've seen many cheaper brands creep (dial and base).
    I may stand corrected but I believe the repeatability is supposed to be .0001"-.0002" , so this can be lost from the get go

    True position can and will be affected by temps on a mill . A few minutes of a mill sitting idle is enough to throw off the positioning by up to a few tenths , I've experienced this on far better quality mills than a haas .
    One way to ensure your not picking up slop is to always approach the part in the same angled direction on the x and y before starting the critical cuts . this will take up any slack if it exists .

  3. #3

    Re: Programmed to travel 2.0000", only reaches 1.9990" on X axis

    Thank you for responding!

    The parts are being measured on a OGP CMM for First piece inspection, and OGP Vision System for in process (quick check on the shop floor). The caliper is Mitutoyo, the test indicator is Mitutoyo, and the Drop indicator is Mitutoyo. The mag base is Noga.

    The parts with .0005" TP were measured on the CMM, freshly calibrated, temp controlled etc. It was consistently out of position, I checked it on a surface plate with a pin and Mitutoyo Drop indicator and it was out but not as far as the CMM said. We challenged the CMM results but ultimately, that's what the customer receives, so the report must be good. I compensated for the position in my program (making a new point to spot, drill and bore). 120 deg spot, 118 deg drill, and bore head. We sent it with the bad report and the customer was still happy so no big deal there but this part I'm making now has .005" TP and I can't even hold that!

    I did noticed if the machine sat for a bit, the bore size would shrink. I took the time this morning to write a warm-up program for the table and spindle. Runs from 0 to max table dim, 500-12000 rpm, in the span of 15 minutes. I checked the travels the same way I explained above, and it made no difference. I am officially stumped.

  4. #4
    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Re: Programmed to travel 2.0000", only reaches 1.9990" on X axis

    First off, any job that came in to my shop with a TP < 0.005 on anything would be an automatic No Bid, although my Eagle would probably do it, not sure if my Haas would. And I don't have a CMM to measure the result anyway.

    I agree with what metalmayhem said above. Having said that I would first look at your measuring technique, I wouldn't trust a 2'' travel indicator over 2''. I would set up using gauge blocks and hope the indicator will repeat. Before trying to measure, warm up the machine for at least an hour by running a warm up program that is moving the table near full travel in both axes.

    It could be a calibration issue, but you need to measure over a larger distance to confirm that. This is really a chicken & egg problem, you need a calibrated measuring device to check the calibration. For instance, the best I could do in my shop would be to slap a DRO scale on the table and hope it was somewhere close to correct. Maybe the Haas tech has some better ideas.
    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA

  5. #5

    Re: Programmed to travel 2.0000", only reaches 1.9990" on X axis

    This is a process we used to uphold a 16" 5 hole bcd which we had .0003 to play with on the x and y positions . It's probably much more extreme from what you have to accomplish but it may be food for thought

    The parts were previously machined on the lathes . For and easy picture , visualize a shaft with a large flange around it with bore holes . They were far more complex but this is the basic picture needed

    1/ we'd dial in the part shaft to pick up our position , make sure it's sitting properly etc
    2/ we'd run most aspects of the general machining . Once we came to the bores we'd back off the head and take a cut
    3/ At an m00 we'd run a probing routine which would probe all the holes with each hole position being added as a ws g55 g56 etc (with the original part position being g54 )
    4/ we'd quickly calculate each holes deviation from g54 part position , average out the deviation then shift the x and y .
    5/ then we'd take another cut to verify the positions were calculated correct and make any necessary adjustments if any before taking the final cuts on the bores . Thats when the heart would start thumping . because these were highly expensive parts

    Timing was critical because the idle machine would be shifting as a guy is calculating any adjustments , one or 2 tenths could be lost in that period of time . 5 minutes and a guy is doing the process all over again but with less material to play with . Sounds like a lot of bs to go through but it's the way it was and we weren't playing with haas mills .

    These were assemblies we did fairly regularly , some had the shaft to work from , others had big bores to work from . Regardless , the process remained the same

    The point of what I'm saying is that high tolerances especially positional isn't necessarily all that easy to accomplish . It all sounds good on paper but man it can be brutal . Now I don't know if a similar process could be applied to what your doing but it may be worth considering .

    Aside from that I'm with Jim on the automatic no

    Your mentioning that you now can't hold up to .005" sounds a bit strange , especially if you were already playing in much higher tolerances . With the machine sitting for as long as it had then it may be worth getting a haas tech in to give it a look over . I just hope your area has better techs then the monkeys we have here

  6. #6

    Re: Programmed to travel 2.0000", only reaches 1.9990" on X axis

    Quote Originally Posted by metalmayhem View Post
    3/ At an m00 we'd run a probing routine which would probe all the holes with each hole position being added as a ws g55 g56 etc (with the original part position being g54 )
    What kinda of probe do you use? A lot of people have told me that the Reneshaw probe with a 6mm ruby tip is not that accurate. From my experience, it is very accurate but i was told not to use the probe as a CMM for in process quick checks. I'll double check my setup and try to apply some of the steps you mentioned.

    Quote Originally Posted by metalmayhem View Post
    I just hope your area has better techs then the monkeys we have here
    We might be in the same area haha. My old company had their own techs that were 10 times better than the local company but lets see what they come up with and ill report back if I end up getting better results


    Thank you all for the help, hopefully it will lead to some good parts.

  7. #7

    Re: Programmed to travel 2.0000", only reaches 1.9990" on X axis

    we used renishaw probes . Most times I'm totally against trusting probed numbers on a mill except this worked out well and everything was well calibrated and controlled .
    I will say that some of our numbers were slightly different from qc but overall they still fell in where they needed to

    I'm guessing the cell phone companies make a fortune from haas . These techs are walked through every step over the phone , ever then they are likely to screw something up

  8. #8
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    Re: Programmed to travel 2.0000", only reaches 1.9990" on X axis

    Every 2 years when I have Haas in to service the machines I get them to re-level the machine (this is the most significant factor we have found over the years) and do a ballbar test and they will tweak backlash etc to pull the machine closer to specification. we regularly pitch holes to 0.002" positional with no issues whatsoever and can hit 0.001" between machined features on machines that are getting on for 25 years old.

  9. #9
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    Re: Programmed to travel 2.0000", only reaches 1.9990" on X axis

    Quote Originally Posted by CarbideCarGuy View Post
    Hello all,

    The title really says it all but for a little more context I will explain my problem. All units are in Inches

    The machine is a 2020 Haas VF2SS. The company bought the machine and it sat for two years until I was hired a few months ago. I've always had trouble with true positions, mainly .005" TP or tighter. To day I decided to check for backlash (which shouldn't be an issue but worth checking anyway.)

    All the values in the compensation tables were set to 0 or "Empty". I put my magnetic base on the vise with a 2" Drop indicator against the spindle on the X axis (I also tried with a .0001 Test indicator). All equipment used is Brand New, I bought it when I was hired. I am the only machinist, one man show, so no one has messed with the machines or equipment. Anyway, I zeroed the indicators at the middle of their travel, 1" on the Drop indicator and .004" on the Test indicator. I returned to zero, kept the travel direction the same, etc.
    The results are as follows on X axis:
    Machine Jogged +1.0000", Indicator read .9995"
    Machine Jogged -1.0000" , Indicator read -.9995"
    Zeroed at -1.0000", Jogged 2.0000" and Indicator read 1.9990"

    The results are as follows on Y axis:
    Machine Jogged +1.0000", Indicator read .9999"
    Machine Jogged -1.0000" , Indicator read -.9999"
    Zeroed at -1.0000", Jogged 2.0000" and Indicator read 1.99985"

    I added values to the compensation table but it does not help with this issue. Is this not backlash? The engineer I was working with told me its a calibration issue. I have a hard time understanding how this is possible on a brand new machine. On other forums I've seen explanations ranging from "replace thruster" to "It's a haas, thats what they do"

    I had a job come in with a TP of .0005" and i tried every trick in the book, the closest I got was .0004 TP on one hole, on one part.

    TLDR: I am having trouble holding True position. checked for backlash, compensation table did not make a difference. it under travels by .0010" in the X + and - direction over 2" and under travels .0002" in the Y + and - direction over 2"

    Any information would help me at this point. I have a haas tech coming in, is there something I should ask him to do while he's here?
    You can't do the test you are doing; you will have to have a BallBar test done all you will do is mess it up with what you are doing, (2" drop indicator ??) the machine should be able to meet your specs, if not you have to be creative with your programing, and speeds and feeds can play a big part when you need to work with TP on anything, Haas can do a BallBar test and relevel the machine as it will need doing if it was just sitting for 2 years
    Mactec54

  10. #10
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    Re: Programmed to travel 2.0000", only reaches 1.9990" on X axis

    Quote Originally Posted by metalmayhem View Post
    we used renishaw probes . Most times I'm totally against trusting probed numbers on a mill except this worked out well and everything was well calibrated and controlled .
    I will say that some of our numbers were slightly different from qc but overall they still fell in where they needed to

    I'm guessing the cell phone companies make a fortune from haas . These techs are walked through every step over the phone , ever then they are likely to screw something up
    Haas have classes that anyone can take on any part of their machine setups, so if you have a few machines, even changing Ballscrews or any part of the machine, including electronics, is all covered in their classes
    Mactec54

  11. #11

    Re: Programmed to travel 2.0000", only reaches 1.9990" on X axis

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    Haas have classes that anyone can take on any part of their machine setups, so if you have a few machines, even changing Ballscrews or any part of the machine, including electronics, is all covered in their classes
    I don't have haas myself but when it comes to the mechanical part I could get by . The company I worked for , well , all the companies I've worked for brought in techs for repairs , we were too valuable to not be making parts . Minor repairs were acceptable and expected though .

    I am curious where they do the classes because if it's done through local dealers then a guy would come out more stupid than when he walked in . I know the tech schools here don't do haas tech courses , except their cnc courses use haas .
    We had one tech here who was ok but the rest were spoon fed over the phone

  12. #12
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    Re: Programmed to travel 2.0000", only reaches 1.9990" on X axis

    ...I agree with others the machine may need to reLeveled and should be Bolted down to proper foundation. dull Boring Bars can cause problems also. Try using an Endmill to bore for location than Ream to size.

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