525,379 active members*
2,593 visitors online*
Register for free
Login
IndustryArena Forum > CNC Electronics > Spindles / VFD > Quality of huanyang and compatibility with various atc spindles
Results 1 to 18 of 18
  1. #1
    Registered
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    515

    Quality of huanyang and compatibility with various atc spindles

    Long story short, I need to run my mach3 mill turn machine with an rs485 plugin controlling the spindle. I'm looking to upgrade my Chinese 2.2kw spindle to an atc unit. I've already talked a bit about this on mach3 sub to see if the rs485 plugin will work with other vfd's, but no answer on that yet. The easiest solution would be to just keep running huanyang with my new atc spindle because the plugin for huanyang works well with my dual spindle mill turn setup.
    When I contacted the seller of a couple atc spindles, a 2.2kw and a 3kw, I asked if it's ok to pair them with a huanyang (both spindles are 400hz) and the seller said "no you need better vfd, huanyang is cheap". Is there a specific reason why the huanyang won't run these spindles Well even though they seem to work fine with common 2.2kw non atc spindles? Or is the seller just saying that because they are relatively cheap compared to other vfd's?

  2. #2
    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    4378

    Re: Quality of huanyang and compatibility with various atc spindles

    That's an interesting response from the seller. I own 1 HY and it seems to work well on my air compressor running at 60Hz. I do use more expensive VFDs to run spindles so no experience with them in that application.

    I think I would ask the seller what their recommendation is for a VFD. My suspicion is that the HY will work fine.
    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA

  3. #3
    Registered
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    515
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Dawson View Post
    That's an interesting response from the seller. I own 1 HY and it seems to work well on my air compressor running at 60Hz. I do use more expensive VFDs to run spindles so no experience with them in that application.

    I think I would ask the seller what their recommendation is for a VFD. My suspicion is that the HY will work fine.
    Yeah, I've run my 2.2kw HY for hundreds of hours with my non atc spindle just fine. Not sure if maybe there was something different about these atc type spindles that makes them more sensitive to vfd quality. I asked the seller if there's a specific reason why I can't use the HY vfd and he said "because they are so bad" lol. I don't know, maybe the HY is fine. I don't mind spending more on a better vfd, I just don't know if I can get it to work with a plugin like my current setup.
    I'm actually still on the fence about going servo driven bt30 or high speed atc spindle. Eventually I'll have one of each on 2 different machines optimized for different work, bu5 for now I need to pick one or the other. High speed atc will be cheaper and much less work to setup as well as faster in aluminum but overall much less versatile than the bt30 setup.

  4. #4
    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Posts
    4378

    Re: Quality of huanyang and compatibility with various atc spindles

    "because they are so bad" I love the highly technical analysis.
    Jim Dawson
    Sandy, Oregon, USA

  5. #5
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    11275

    Re: Quality of huanyang and compatibility with various atc spindles

    Quote Originally Posted by QuinnSjoblom View Post
    Yeah, I've run my 2.2kw HY for hundreds of hours with my non atc spindle just fine. Not sure if maybe there was something different about these atc type spindles that makes them more sensitive to vfd quality. I asked the seller if there's a specific reason why I can't use the HY vfd and he said "because they are so bad" lol. I don't know, maybe the HY is fine. I don't mind spending more on a better vfd, I just don't know if I can get it to work with a plugin like my current setup.
    I'm actually still on the fence about going servo driven bt30 or high speed atc spindle. Eventually I'll have one of each on 2 different machines optimized for different work, bu5 for now I need to pick one or the other. High speed atc will be cheaper and much less work to setup as well as faster in aluminum but overall much less versatile than the bt30 setup.
    No the plugin for the HY won't work with other VFD Drives, if you are looking at a quality ATC spindle then a different VFD drive would be the normal thing to do, there is nothing wrong with the HY but they don't have a good vector drive and that is what you want for your ATC spindle so the difference is in the type of VFD Drive you should use
    Mactec54

  6. #6
    Registered
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    515
    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    No the plugin for the HY won't work with other VFD Drives, if you are looking at a quality ATC spindle then a different VFD drive would be the normal thing to do, there is nothing wrong with the HY but they don't have a good vector drive and that is what you want for your ATC spindle so the difference is in the type of VFD Drive you should use
    So what is the specific reason why I need a good vector drive to go with my atc spindle? Is there something physically different about the magnets and windings in an atc spindle vs a cheap Chinese non atc spindle that will cause it to not run well on a HY? Or is it just that it makes sense to spend more than a hundred bucks on a vfd if your spindle cost you 2 grand or more? Will the atc spindle run at least as well as my cheap non atc spindle did on the HY? Or will I actually have problems with running the atc on hy that I didn't have before? Like I mentioned, I have no problem spending more on a quality vector drive, it just might not be an option for my specific setup that needs to run the spindle on a plugin

  7. #7
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    11275

    Re: Quality of huanyang and compatibility with various atc spindles

    Quote Originally Posted by QuinnSjoblom View Post
    So what is the specific reason why I need a good vector drive to go with my atc spindle? Is there something physically different about the magnets and windings in an atc spindle vs a cheap Chinese non atc spindle that will cause it to not run well on a HY? Or is it just that it makes sense to spend more than a hundred bucks on a vfd if your spindle cost you 2 grand or more? Will the atc spindle run at least as well as my cheap non atc spindle did on the HY? Or will I actually have problems with running the atc on hy that I didn't have before? Like I mentioned, I have no problem spending more on a quality vector drive, it just might not be an option for my specific setup that needs to run the spindle on a plugin
    If you get a good quality ATC spindle it will run better smoother and quieter with a quality Vector VFD drive, a quality VFD Drive even will make a difference to how a regular spindles will run as well
    Mactec54

  8. #8
    Registered
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    515
    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    If you get a good quality ATC spindle it will run better smoother and quieter with a quality Vector VFD drive, a quality VFD Drive even will make a difference to how a regular spindles will run as well
    So if huanyang is the only option for my specific setup, should I try running an atc spindle? Or will I damage it?

  9. #9
    Community Moderator ger21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Posts
    35012

    Re: Quality of huanyang and compatibility with various atc spindles

    You can use an RS-485 with any VFD that uses Modbus. The Huanyang plugin will not work with other VFD's, but Mach3 supports Modbus, which most VFD's also do.
    The only reason the Mach3 Huanyang plugin exists is because the Huanyang uses a non standard Modbus implementation. If it worked like all other VFD's, then everyone would have been controlling it with standard Modbus.
    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)

  10. #10
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    11275

    Re: Quality of huanyang and compatibility with various atc spindles

    Quote Originally Posted by QuinnSjoblom View Post
    So if huanyang is the only option for my specific setup, should I try running an atc spindle? Or will I damage it?
    Ask the manufacture what he recommends for a VFD Drive for there spindle and then you can compare to see if there is any difference I doubt that it would hurt the spindle
    Mactec54

  11. #11
    Registered
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    515
    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    You can use an RS-485 with any VFD that uses Modbus. The Huanyang plugin will not work with other VFD's, but Mach3 supports Modbus, which most VFD's also do.
    The only reason the Mach3 Huanyang plugin exists is because the Huanyang uses a non standard Modbus implementation. If it worked like all other VFD's, then everyone would have been controlling it with standard Modbus.
    Thanks Gerry, I was hoping you would chime in on the mach3 side of this problem. I'm not familiar with modbus so I wasn't sure exactly what the situation was there with other vfds. That's good news that mach3 will control any vfd with modbus capability, but here's the question, will it behave the same way as my current setup does with the HY plugin? Currently I can configure mach3 to control a step/dir spindle (my servo driven turning spindle) and mach3 will still send commands through the plugin to control my HY plugin simultaneously. For example If I command an sxxx m3, it will send out step/dir pulses through the specified port/pin for spindle, AND it will send the same command to my vfd at the same time. With a regular modbus spindle setup (not HY plugin), will I be able to also configure mach3 as step/dir spindle and get the same behavior like before?

  12. #12
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    11275

    Re: Quality of huanyang and compatibility with various atc spindles

    Quote Originally Posted by QuinnSjoblom View Post
    Thanks Gerry, I was hoping you would chime in on the mach3 side of this problem. I'm not familiar with modbus so I wasn't sure exactly what the situation was there with other vfds. That's good news that mach3 will control any vfd with modbus capability, but here's the question, will it behave the same way as my current setup does with the HY plugin? Currently I can configure mach3 to control a step/dir spindle (my servo driven turning spindle) and mach3 will still send commands through the plugin to control my HY plugin simultaneously. For example If I command an sxxx m3, it will send out step/dir pulses through the specified port/pin for spindle, AND it will send the same command to my vfd at the same time. With a regular modbus spindle setup (not HY plugin), will I be able to also configure mach3 as step/dir spindle and get the same behavior like before?
    Should be no different with or how you can use the control I thought you new all this about Modbus so did not mention it before
    Mactec54

  13. #13
    Registered
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    515
    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    Should be no different with or how you can use the control I thought you new all this about Modbus so did not mention it before
    No, I'm not experienced using modbus. Wasn't sure if a custom plugin needed to be written for each vfd but it sounds like no. Still im not sure if mach3 will behave the same way allowing me to run a step/dir spindle at the same time as controlling another vfd through modbus.

  14. #14
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Posts
    11275

    Re: Quality of huanyang and compatibility with various atc spindles

    Quote Originally Posted by QuinnSjoblom View Post
    No, I'm not experienced using modbus. Wasn't sure if a custom plugin needed to be written for each vfd but it sounds like no. Still im not sure if mach3 will behave the same way allowing me to run a step/dir spindle at the same time as controlling another vfd through modbus.
    Your step/dir spindle control is working just like an axes would so that won't change, you don't need Modbus to turn a VFD Drive On / Off and control the speed in Mach3
    Mactec54

  15. #15
    Community Moderator Al_The_Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    23376

    Re: Quality of huanyang and compatibility with various atc spindles

    Quote Originally Posted by QuinnSjoblom View Post
    So what is the specific reason why I need a good vector drive to go with my atc spindle? Is there something physically different about the magnets and windings in an atc spindle vs a cheap Chinese non atc spindle that will cause it to not run well on a HY?
    Technically there Is no such thing as a 'ATC' spindle, I have used regular motors with a ATC, but placing a VFD with encoder feedback for precise positioning, this is the way Mitsubishi does it.
    I have also used Huanyang with a an old 4 pole motors on my pair of Excello's.
    But it does pay to purchase a quality VFD, the Huanyang Modbus Mach plug-in is not standard modbus and will not work with other Modbus VFD's as already noted.
    A while back I had quite a long discussion with Sebastien over the Huanyang version as I wrote one that used his plug in on a DC drive in order to control it the same way.
    But for CNC work, you do need a Vector drive.
    ( ATC = Automatic Tool Changer?).
    Al.
    .
    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.

  16. #16
    Registered
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    515
    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    Your step/dir spindle control is working just like an axes would so that won't change, you don't need Modbus to turn a VFD Drive On / Off and control the speed in Mach3
    Here's the issue though, in order to control my servo driven turning spindle, I have to configure mach3 as a step/dir spindle. I know that I can use analog +/- 10v and relay to control my milling spindle vfd, but to do so I have to configure mach3 to use analog spindle drive and it will no longer control my servo driven turning spindle with step/dir. The HY plugin allows for my odd dual spindle mill turn configuration to work since i can configure mach3 as step/dir spindle and the plugin for my vfd milling spindle remains functional simultaneously.

    I looked a bit further into general modbus control of a vfd and don't think mach3 is gonna allow me to do that either and still leave the step/dir spindle functional. I think the only way that my unique setup can work with 2 different spindle control types is with a custom plugin like for the the HY so that it can run along side the main spindle control in mach3.

    After thinking about this more, I'm pretty sure I'm gonna with the servo driven bt30 instead. It's gonna be more money, more work, more time, but it will be worth the added benefits. It also solves this dual spindle control software issue. Both the milling spindle and turning spindle will be servo driven with step/dir and same steps per unit so all I have to do is parallel the step/dir output to both servo drives and use relays to disable one or the other in macros as needed. All becomes very simple and controllable

  17. #17
    Community Moderator Al_The_Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    23376

    Re: Quality of huanyang and compatibility with various atc spindles

    If this is purely for a ATC function, it has often been done in the past by using a regular spindle controller, and when an angular position is required the VFD is turned off, and a spare axis servo or stepper motor is used to precisely position the spindle to the required angle.
    Al..
    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.

  18. #18
    Registered
    Join Date
    Nov 2017
    Posts
    515
    Quote Originally Posted by Al_The_Man View Post
    If this is purely for a ATC function, it has often been done in the past by using a regular spindle controller, and when an angular position is required the VFD is turned off, and a spare axis servo or stepper motor is used to precisely position the spindle to the required angle.
    Al..
    Nope, this is a mill turn machine. It has a horizontal servo driven turning spindle that doubles as a 4th axis, and also a vertical milling spindle. I use both of these spindles within one gcode file so I can only use setting changes that are accessible within macros. Currently the switch happens in my m6. Tools 1 through 100 are tied to milling spindle, tools above 100 are for turning. This way the machine knows which spindle to activate just by looking at tool number.

Similar Threads

  1. Why are keling ATC spindles so much more expensive than er11 spindles?
    By sburck in forum Automation Technology Products
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 12-20-2019, 02:32 PM
  2. Dust Collection Designs for Huanyang 2.2Kw spindles?
    By Barefootboy4 in forum Spindles / VFD
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 03-24-2018, 05:10 AM
  3. Any reasonably priced (cheap) spindles other than the chinese spindles?
    By HereinCS in forum DIY CNC Router Table Machines
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 11-05-2014, 11:16 PM
  4. Spindles de alta qualidade.High quality spindles.
    By Newtron in forum News Announcements
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-21-2009, 08:33 PM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •