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IndustryArena Forum > MetalWorking Machines > Cincinnati CNC > Sabre 750 Acramatic 2100 Error
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  1. #1
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    Sabre 750 Acramatic 2100 Error

    A couple of months ago I had a random error when booting up. I shut down and restarted it, and problem went away. Then a few weeks later, same issue, but it took about 3 or 4 restarts to clear.. Last time I started it, same thing, but about 6 or 7 restarts. Here is the error display:

    Attachment 423402

    READS:

    Cause: See Cause (2)
    Cause (1): The spindle enable signal (M1SPDL_ENBL) is not on, but the spindle drive ready (M1SPDL_READY) signal is on. It should not be on at this time.

    Cause (2): The spindle enable signal (M1SPDL_ENBL) has been set on, but the spindle drive ready signal (M1SPDL_READY) has not been received.





    All I can tell from this is that either the spindle drive is not producing the proper ready signal when it should, or whatever is supposed to receive that signal is not successfully receiving/recognizing it. Beyond that, I can't tell anything else from this. I just don't have enough understanding of the system to go much farther.

    FWIW: The spindle drive was rebuilt in June 2017. If it has 200 hours on it since then, I would be surprised.



    Having owned this machine for many years, I know how this goes. The issue starts infrequently, then continues to get worse until one day it just won't start. I don't run it every day, usually only 2 or maybe 3 times a month at most, so I would like to preemptively fix this if I can.

    There are some real experts on this control on here, sure hope one of you knows the problem. You have been very helpful in the past, and I have always returned the favor by spending my money with you for repairs.

  2. #2
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    Re: Sabre 750 Acramatic 2100 Error

    Check relays cr 24 and 25 if they get 24v, and if they close circuit.


    Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk

  3. #3
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    Re: Sabre 750 Acramatic 2100 Error

    Quote Originally Posted by tspiszak View Post
    Check relays cr 24 and 25 if they get 24v, and if they close circuit.


    Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk
    Can you give me any details about the function of these relays? Is one or both supposed to be turned on by the Spindle Drive Ready signal?

  4. #4
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    Re: Sabre 750 Acramatic 2100 Error

    Yes, both should turn on by spindle drive. Dallas chip maybe going faulty.

    Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk

  5. #5
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    Re: Sabre 750 Acramatic 2100 Error

    Quote Originally Posted by tspiszak View Post
    Yes, both should turn on by spindle drive. Dallas chip maybe going faulty.

    Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk
    Why the jump to suspect the RTC? What do the two have to do with each other?


    I replaced the WS battery in 2012, but the RT had no battery, it only had this device:

    Benchmarq Real-Time Clock Module #BQ3287MT

    I am assuming this is what you are referring to as the Dallas chip. If the RT battery was dying wouldn't the clock be losing time?



    BTW: There is this thread from 2012 where I review my procedure for changing the battery. I also discuss the RT module. This old thread is the only way I still had a record of the exact module on the board.

  6. #6
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    Re: Sabre 750 Acramatic 2100 Error

    UPDATE:

    I have not gone dark on this thread, but the 2 times I ran the machine since my original post I have not had any issues. Can't do much troubleshooting when the problem runs and hides. I will update if it comes back. I did locate the 2 mentioned relays and poke and prod them a bit, so it is not out of the question that action did something if there is a connection issue happening there.

    In the meantime, if someone can explain what the Benchmarq Module mentioned in post #5 does, I would be interested to know. Does it have a battery/finite lifespan that needs to be a point of concern?

  7. #7
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    Re: Sabre 750 Acramatic 2100 Error

    So after about 1.5 years, this problem reappeared today.

    Machine has been running no problems, then at the end of a tool change, the spindle braking did not work. Instead I got the below "Spindle Stop" error, and the spindle coasted to a stop after several minutes.
    Attachment 455350

    I shut down and restarted everything, and the spindle timed out without running. This time it gave me the same Spindle Drive Not Ready as in my first post here.

    Attachment 455352

    Next, I shut it down again, restarted, this time it worked testing through MDI. So I restarted program, it successfully indexed and changed a tool, ran that one tool, and worked fine until shutdown before tool change. Then it gave the same Spindle Stop error as before. A new restart and it won't even index the spindle to do a tool change.

    Going with the previous suggestions, I checked relays C24 & C25. C24 is off and open, C25 is on and closed. So if the previous information was correct and both must be on, then whatever controls C24 is the likely issue. But this puts me back at the same issue I always have when this machine gives problems. I am very good at electro-mechanical troubleshooting, but without more documentation, troubleshooting this is nearly impossible.



    If anyone can help here, I am dead in the water.

  8. #8
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    Re: Sabre 750 Acramatic 2100 Error

    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/531lvwcl5...WjplEM1Wa?dl=0

    In sabre electric are pictures of wiring diagram.
    Hope it helps.


    Sent from my D5803 using Tapatalk

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by flyinphill View Post
    So after about 1.5 years, this problem reappeared today.

    Machine has been running no problems, then at the end of a tool change, the spindle braking did not work. Instead I got the below "Spindle Stop" error, and the spindle coasted to a stop after several minutes.
    Attachment 455350

    I shut down and restarted everything, and the spindle timed out without running. This time it gave me the same Spindle Drive Not Ready as in my first post here.

    Attachment 455352

    Next, I shut it down again, restarted, this time it worked testing through MDI. So I restarted program, it successfully indexed and changed a tool, ran that one tool, and worked fine until shutdown before tool change. Then it gave the same Spindle Stop error as before. A new restart and it won't even index the spindle to do a tool change.

    Going with the previous suggestions, I checked relays C24 & C25. C24 is off and open, C25 is on and closed. So if the previous information was correct and both must be on, then whatever controls C24 is the likely issue. But this puts me back at the same issue I always have when this machine gives problems. I am very good at electro-mechanical troubleshooting, but without more documentation, troubleshooting this is nearly impossible.



    If anyone can help here, I am dead in the water.
    You didnt mention which spindle drive you have, and procedure will be different for each. Assuming you have the VFS5, look at the drive for the fault light. If it is on, you will most likely need to fully cycle power to get rid of the fault which likely explains why you have different faults at different times.

    The VFS5 doesn't display fault codes, so you will want to hook a pc up to the serial port and read out the error history. This requires motionlink software and a proper serial cable for the connection. Error codes such as Overspeed, Power Bus, etc will give more info on what is causing the failure.

  10. #10
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    Re: Sabre 750 Acramatic 2100 Error

    I will download these, they look potentially helpful. Thank you.

  11. #11
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    Re: Sabre 750 Acramatic 2100 Error

    It is the VFS5.

    Where can I find that software? Sounds like a must-have if I am going to keep trying to use this machine. People with parts and knowledge on these are quickly disappearing. I have an older laptop with a serial cable I can use it for this job.

    So what exactly does CR24 do? Is it carrying a fault condition from the RT to the drive, or is it carrying the fault form the drive to the RT?


    Also, I kept tinkering last night for several hours trying to trace the issue. One thing I did was to just touch the cable to the top molex plug going into the back of the drive, and when I did, several relays did all kinds of clicking and switching. When I went around to the machine, I had a new code for an encoder issue. I did not take a picture of it unfortunately, but when I completely recycled the machine, it ran with no problems for about 2 more hours last night. So today I am taking my electrical stuff to the shop and take a close look at all the contacts in this plug. I don't know what all is contained in this plug connection, but I assume that a bad contact here could be causing all of this. Is there some form of Spindle Ready input contained in this cable?

  12. #12
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    Re: Sabre 750 Acramatic 2100 Error

    +1-859-534-4750 or +1 800-934-0735 (Cincinnati Tech Support & Parts)
    https://store.fivesmsi.com/contact
    Fives-MSI CINCINNATI is out on Holiday until JAN 4th 2021

  13. #13
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    Re: Sabre 750 Acramatic 2100 Error

    Mike Kilroy has posted links to the software in previous threads so you should be able to search and find it fairly easily. I still primarily use an older DOS based version of Motionlink, but I believe they recommend Motionlink+ currently.

    I'm not sure why you are focused on CR24 if you are having spindle drive issues. If I'm remembering correctly, this is for the 4th axis and has nothing to do with the spindle drive.

    Since you believe you received an encoder fault when you touched the connector on the drive, you likely moved the encoder plug enough to cause the fault. I have seen issues on these drives from poor connections, so it may be worth unplugging and reseating the connectors to see if you can get a better connection. Be sure to have power off when you do this though.

  14. #14
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    Re: Sabre 750 Acramatic 2100 Error

    Quote Originally Posted by maver1ck View Post
    Mike Kilroy has posted links to the software in previous threads so you should be able to search and find it fairly easily. I still primarily use an older DOS based version of Motionlink, but I believe they recommend Motionlink+ currently.

    I'm not sure why you are focused on CR24 if you are having spindle drive issues. If I'm remembering correctly, this is for the 4th axis and has nothing to do with the spindle drive.

    Since you believe you received an encoder fault when you touched the connector on the drive, you likely moved the encoder plug enough to cause the fault. I have seen issues on these drives from poor connections, so it may be worth unplugging and reseating the connectors to see if you can get a better connection. Be sure to have power off when you do this though.
    I will see what I can find from Mike. He has done my last 3 drive repairs.

    I looked at relay 24 based on a previous post suggestion, I had no other reason beyond that.

    Now with further information from the schematics, if correct CR24 is somehow involved with M1SPDL_READY. CR25 & CR26 are M1SPDLL_FAULT, and are monitoring for spindle drive & spindle motor overheat conditions. I am not clear if these are circuits are transmitting signals from the drive to RT, or from RT to drive. The schematics are a bit cryptic, and tough to follow if you don't know their naming conventions.

  15. #15
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    Re: Sabre 750 Acramatic 2100 Error

    I was thinking of Arrow prints when I mentioned CR24 is the 4th Axis enable signal, you are correct that on Sabre's CR24 is part of the spindle drive ready chain. To be sure you are looking at the correct prints though, the serial number plate on the machine will have a control diagram number. Make sure this number matches the diagrams you are referring to as this will ensure you are looking at the correct prints for your machine. If you don't have the right set, I would recommend contacting Cincinnati directly to ask about purchasing a set.

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