547,569 active members*
2,557 visitors online*
Register for free
Login
Page 1 of 4 123
Results 1 to 20 of 62
  1. #1
    Registered
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    93

    Servo or Stepper for CNC?

    i'm gonna build my own cnc table which i want to be flexible enough to run my plasma for cutting sheet, and, will also allow me to mount my 1.5HP router. i dont have a need at this time for cnc to run real fast, but for plasma cutting it has to be smooth and accurate.

    should i use servo or stepper motors and controls??

    thank
    CK

  2. #2
    Registered
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    3319
    Suggest that you do a search on this website for both. The subject of stepper vs servo has been discussed quite extensively and quite often. There are many good explanations to be found with a bit of searching....

    Steppers tend to be less costly, but can run into lost step problems if you run them too fast or there is too much drag or whatever else might cause them to be non-responsive.

    Servos are more costly as they have true closed loop feedback with respect to what you told them do do versus what they did do. They do require tuning or else they can have flakey response.

    There is a device sold that watches to see if steps get lost with steppers. Dunno if it fixes the problem but it at least warns of it somehow.

    Folks have added resolvers to steppers to make them respond more like servos - I'd say that this is offers a high performance servo clone.

    Steppers have "steps", servos don't. Depending on gearing, steppers don'/won't/can't NECESSARILY have the same micro resolution of servos. Yes you can micro step them BUT micro stepping is not linear. May not mean much to your use but you need to consider it....

    The high end machines that I've worked with ALL use servos (IE: Haas VMC's etc). Seen reports of stepper use on commercial machines but don't know of any personally.

    I'd say use servos - the next poster will tell you that steppers are fine (they are but....). Servos have "buts" too but all the commericial equipment I have in my shop (cnc mill, 3 cnc lathes) all have servos. I can't and won't argue with the pros....

  3. #3
    Gold Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2502
    A couple more thoughts on the plasma table application.

    First, plasmas throw a lot of RF noise which servo encoders will pick up if they aren't designed to deal with it. Noise on the encoders = very bad = unscheduled moves of possibly large magnitude or unreliable operation at the least. You can find systems built to deal with it (one of the Gecko servo drives has a low pass filter for this purpose) but you need to make sure you've got one.

    Second, a lot of the servo advantage seems to revolve around very high speeds and where the torque lies in that range. That's a big reason why the pros like them on commercial VMC's which can go crazy on cutting speeds (fun to watch their videos!). Most steppers are limited to 1000 rpm, so you have to drive them with gears or belts to achieve higher speeds which costs accuracy. You'd rather start from 4000-5000 rpm and gear that down, which is more what a servo does. However, I don't think you can really use that speed on a plasma table. You need to move the arc relatively slowly I would think. This is likely also true for a lot of CNC conversions. Can your converted machine really perform at the inch-per-minute range of commercial VMC's? Probably not.

    Lastly, on the accuracy issue, this again would not seem to be a factor for a plasma table application. We can argue about the consequences of unequal microsteps but it doesn't matter if your plasma cut is way wider than 0.001".

    The biggest argument for servos will be strength if your table is large and the gantry heavy. However, you can buy pretty beefy step motors these days and they seem to be cheaper than servos. On balance, I think I would take the steppers for this application.

    Incidentally, I haven't forgotten the closed loop advantage, but you can apply encoders to step motors to as NC Cams mentioned. There are various systems to do that and Gecko will have both the GRex and eventually the "stall-proof stepper drive".

    Best,

    BW

  4. #4
    Gold Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    484
    I think the noise issue would somewhat apply to stepper motors as well as servos...you have to make sure your step/dir lines to either one are well shielded. I use a digital filter in my Pixie controller to filter noise on the encoder lines (it eliminates any spikes shorter than 0.5uSec). I still make sure my encoder cables are well shielded...

  5. #5
    Registered
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    93
    other than the cost and shielding issues, servos are better? for me, the extra cost is not a issue, i just want to select controller and motors that will perform well and are durable.

  6. #6
    Registered
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Posts
    78
    Servos really don't make sense until you get into high power requirements. I use 720 oz./in steppers, and with my ballscrews, they generate over 750Lb of linear force! Servos make sense if you are running continuous high speeds, or need more than 200 Watts of feed power, which is a LOT of force! Most CNC operations on hobbyist level machines run low speeds, with reasonably small actual cutting forces. Real high speed (like a commercial VMC), costs BIG money, and is largely unnecessary for most operations. Servos have their place, but generally cost more to implement than steppers. Closed loop stepper interfaces, like the ones offered by Rogers machine, pretty much eliminate the problem of lost steps, and ruined parts in Mach 2/3.

    Steppers wont crash and burn themselves up like servos, as they are constant current devices, and simply stall when they jam up. Servos can continue to run, and the windings will turn to slag in short order if you haven't any current limiting on the drives. Steppers typically suit smaller machines.

  7. #7
    Registered
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    93
    Quote Originally Posted by Corvus corax
    Servos really don't make sense until you get into high power requirements. I use 720 oz./in steppers, and with my ballscrews, they generate over 750Lb of linear force! Servos make sense if you are running continuous high speeds, or need more than 200 Watts of feed power, which is a LOT of force! Most CNC operations on hobbyist level machines run low speeds, with reasonably small actual cutting forces. Real high speed (like a commercial VMC), costs BIG money, and is largely unnecessary for most operations. Servos have their place, but generally cost more to implement than steppers. Closed loop stepper interfaces, like the ones offered by Rogers machine, pretty much eliminate the problem of lost steps, and ruined parts in Mach 2/3.

    Steppers wont crash and burn themselves up like servos, as they are constant current devices, and simply stall when they jam up. Servos can continue to run, and the windings will turn to slag in short order if you haven't any current limiting on the drives. Steppers typically suit smaller machines.
    plasma on thin sheet requires much higher ipm (compared to ipm for milling). if the plasma head does not advance fast enough it wont make the cleanest cut. i also dont need 720oz/in motors, probably something around 200oz/in. i guess i could use a gear box if i need more torq.

    i am under the impression that servo's move more smoothly.

    since i'm kinda a "noob" to cnc, i'm doing my ask-a-million-questions before committing to design and parts.

    thanks for the help
    CK

  8. #8
    Gold Member
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    2502
    Quote Originally Posted by CNC_Kid
    plasma on thin sheet requires much higher ipm (compared to ipm for milling). if the plasma head does not advance fast enough it wont make the cleanest cut. i also dont need 720oz/in motors, probably something around 200oz/in. i guess i could use a gear box if i need more torq.

    i am under the impression that servo's move more smoothly.

    since i'm kinda a "noob" to cnc, i'm doing my ask-a-million-questions before committing to design and parts.

    thanks for the help
    CK
    Not clear the ipm is really "much higher". What does it need to be? These guys http://www.plasma-cutter.com/cnc.htm are talking 80 ipm. They're using step motors to do that.

    Why not go research commercial units and study their specifications to get an idea of what you're trying to accomplish? You can also look at tables others have made. Pay particular attention to the examples of work done on their machines so you can see which machines are delivering results similar to what you want to achieve.

    Given that research you'll be able to focus your questions a little better and zero in faster on where you're going. You'll also get a lot of great ideas for how to proceed on your project.

    Best,

    BW

  9. #9
    Registered
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    3319
    The following is a reply from Mariss Freimanis that addresses the recurring "stepper versus servo" inquiry as posed elsewhere on this message board to Freak Brain (with my editing for spelling and apparent typo’s and/or filled in details):

    Step motors and servo motors service similar applications, ones where precise positioning and speed are required.

    The biggest difference is that steppers are operated "open loop". This means there is no feedback required from the motor. You send a step pulse to the drive and take on faith it will be executed. Seems like a problem but it's not.

    If you have a quartz watch with hour and minute hands, then you have a step motor on your wrist. The electronics generates 1 step pulse per second, driving a 60 step per revolution motor which turns at 1 RPM. It keeps nearly perfect time. Any errors are due entirely to the electronics timing accuracy (quartz crystal oscillator).

    With apologies to David Letterman, here's some "Top 10" lists I came up with for choosing between steppers and brush DC servos. Others can add more, I'm sure.

    Top Ten Stepper Advantages:

    1) Stable. Can drive a wide range of frictional and inertial loads.
    2) Needs no feedback. The motor is also the position transducer.
    3) Inexpensive relative to other motion control systems.
    4) Standardized frame size and performance.
    5) Plug and play. Easy to setup and use.
    6) Safe. If anything breaks, the motor stops.
    7) Long life. Bearings are the only wear-out mechanism.
    8) Excellent low speed torque. Can drive many loads without gearing.
    9) Excellent repeatability. Returns to the same location accurately.
    10) Overload safe. Motor cannot be damaged by mechanical overload.

    Top Ten DC Servo Advantages:

    1) High output power relative to motor size and weight.
    2) Encoder determines accuracy and resolution.
    3) High efficiency. Can approach 90% at light loads.
    4) High torque to inertia ratio. Can rapidly accelerate loads.
    5) Has "reserve" power. 2-3 times continuous power for short periods.
    6) Has "reserve" torque. 5-10 times rated torque for short periods.
    7) Motor stays cool. Current draw proportional to load.
    8) Usable high speed torque. Maintains rated torque to 90% of NL RPM
    9) Audibly quiet at high speeds.
    10) Resonance and vibration free operation.

    Top Ten Stepper Disadvantages:

    1) Low efficiency. Motor draws substantial power regardless of load.
    2) Torque drops rapidly with speed (torque is the inverse of speed).
    3) Low accuracy. 1:200 at full load, 1:2000 at light loads.
    4) Prone to resonance. Requires micro-stepping to move smoothly.
    5) No feedback to indicate missed steps.
    6) Low torque to inertia ratio. Cannot accelerate loads very rapidly.
    7) Motor gets very hot in high performance configurations.
    8) Motor will not "pick up" after momentary overload.
    9) Motor is audibly very noisy at moderate to high speeds.
    10) Low output power for size and weight.

    Top Ten DC Servo (brush type) Disadvantages (besides higher relative cost):

    1) Requires "tuning" to stabilize feedback loop.
    2) Motor "runs away" when something breaks. Safety circuits required.
    3) Complex. Requires encoder.
    4) Brush wear limits life to 2,000 hrs. Service is then required.
    5) Peak torque is limited to a 1% duty cycle.
    6) Motor can be damaged by sustained overload.
    7) Bewildering choice of motors, encoders, servo drives.
    8) Power supply current 10 times average to use peak torque. See (5).
    9) Motor develops peak power at higher speeds. Gearing often required.
    10) Poor motor cooling. Ventilated motors are easily contaminated.

    Mariss

    Subsequently another question was posed by Freak Brain:

    One question....

    On the Top Ten DC Servo Disadvantages you wrote, Requires "tuning" to stabilize feedback loop. Is this done in the drive or is this done in the encoder? and the safety circuits, are these in the drive or is this something I would have to buy separately. Like your drives, are these items in your drives?

    Mariss’ reply to this inquiry:

    Tuning refers to adjusting the PID coefficients to cause a critically damped response from the motor/load when adjusting to a disturbance. Sounds complicated but it's not.

    PID stands for Proportional, Integral and Differential. The "difference" error (where you should be versus where you are) is separated into 3 channels (PID), then recombined. You perform this algorithm unconsciously when you drive a car.

    Say you take a road trip from LA to San Francisco up I-5. Your task is to stay side-by-side next to the "command position" car on this trip. It can accelerate and stop instantly, you can't. Your gas pedal and brake (torque command) only adjusts acceleration and deceleration like in a real car.

    At the start of the trip, both of you are stopped. The "command car" instantly accelerates to 85MPH (average to slow for what you see on I-5).

    The first thing you notice is a lot of distance has opened up between you and the "command car". This is the Proportional component. You press on the gas and away we go. Your speed builds up and after a while the distance begins to close.

    Your rate of closure is the derivative or Differential component. As long as the distance to the "command car' keeps opening, you press harder on the gas. As it closes, you ease up.

    To close the distance, you have to go faster than the "command car". Otherwise you will never catch up.

    You are now getting very near the "command car". Both the separating distance and the rate of closure decreases towards zero so they are no longer of use. You have come off of the gas enough to nearly match its speed.

    This is where the Integral component comes in. You are now side by side. You now adjust your speed based on inches of separation. If you slightly edge into the lead, you ease off. If you slightly fall behind, you make up the difference. Rate of closure (differential) or separating distance (Proportional) are too small to use.

    Using this method (PID), you will arrive at your destination simultaneously even though hundreds of miles and hours of travel have elapsed. You do it naturally and unconsciously.

    A mis-tuned servo (not enough D or too much P) by this analogy would have you overshoot the "command car", hit the brake, fall behind, over-accelerate and overshoot the "command car" again, over and over (sometimes called "hunting" or "oscillating"). Tough on your passengers and car (400 miles, 4 hours) and equally hard on your servo motor.

    All sorts of other stuff works with this analogy. Two things come to mind.

    1) Feed-forward compensated PID servos. This is where you are told ahead of time what the "command car" will do. You don't have to sit and watch in surprise when it suddenly takes off or changes direction; you are fore-armed with its future intentions. This somewhat makes up for time otherwise lost in catching up.

    2) S-shaped acceleration/deceleration profiles. This keeps the 2nd derivative of velocity (namely jerk) finite, minimizing the "jerk" factor. Again, you do this naturally driving a car.

    (The rate of change of the motion is velocity or first derivative of motion. The rate of change of velocity is acceleration or the first derivative of velocity and second of motion. The rate of change of acceleration is jerk or the first derivative of acceleration, or second derivative of velocity or third derivative of motion. Got that??? If you do, you understand elementary calculus.).

    Imagine you are cruising down a boulevard when the light up ahead changes from green to red. In a simple CNC program, you stand on your brake until you come to a stop. This would be very uncomfortable in real life.

    When you decelerate in a car, you tense your muscles to balance against the deceleration G-force until you just counteract that force. When you come to a stop, deceleration abruptly disappears along with its G-force. Your tensing against it does not though. The result is head and body bobbing back and forth until you find the new balance. Not comfortable.

    What you actually do when coming to a stop is to tail-off on the brake pedal. Before coming to a stop you lessen the rate of deceleration (brake pedal pressure) to make it become zero as your speed approaches zero. This is an S-shaped deceleration curve.

    Where it matters on your CNC machine is it eliminates ringing (head bobbing) at the beginning and end of acceleration and deceleration. This decreases wear and error.

    Mariss

    Additions by NC Cams:

    The safety circuit inquiry response is sort of a yes and no answer.

    Limit switches are mounted externally on the machine. These cut power via drive disengagement should "runaway" occur.

    Most servo amps can output S/D (shutdown) signals from built-in protection circuitry that tell the controller a fault occurred in the drive (IE: over voltage, over current, rpm runaway, loss of feedback, etc).

    The machine tool builder is the one who is charged with installing limit switches. These are the last defense for stopping a runaway servo at some end limit point of the table/quill travel.

    Further elaboration by Arvidb:

    The way acceleration and deceleration is handled is up to the controller (Mach2 for instance). You won't get oscillations by setting these wrong (in the drive), but S shaped acceleration is easier on the mechanics than constant/linear acceleration.

    PID parameters are set in the servo driver (e.g. the Gecko drive). Get these wrong, and you might get very nasty oscillations (vibrations or "buzzing") from the motor. These will wear out the mechanics quickly - and sound awful! This is the "not enough D or too much P" part described by Mariss.

    (Mostly to Allen): PID adjustments are done to get the machine to respond as quickly and accurately as possible to a command, while still making sure the machine is stable (no oscillations).

    First the difference between actual and commanded values are calculated (differences = "error"),
    then a control signal is calculated as the sum of proportional (= factor * error), integral (= factor * sum of all errors measured from machine start), and derivative (= factor * rate of change of error) terms.

    The three factors are the things one adjusts (usually called Kp, Ti, Td). It can be quite difficult to get them right.

    Response by TORSEN:

    The difference between a stepper and a servo in simple terms is the fact that when not moving a stepper is held in position by current -- servo is not.

    (NC Cams comment: this is technically true BUT if the cutting or other forces try to move the table against the servo, the encoder shows motion and the servo will apply force via the application of current to return the table to the prescribed position. For a snapshot in time, there is no current flow, however this can rapidly change as the cut is made - read on)

    The full current is flowing to hold a stepper motor in position this is why they are rated for a certain amount of holding torque. As the stepper starts to rotate, the torque diminishes as the speed increases.

    (When) No current is flow(ing) on a stopped servo motor, its power is regulated by a error register in the driver. When a force is encountered (like somebody trying to turn the shaft by hand or cutter force tries to move the servo) the error of position on the shaft will cause a current to be send to the motor to correct the error.

    The amount of current is in direct relation to the amount of error so a small error will produce only a small current.
    This is like a rubber band effect when trying to move the motor and should be taken into consideration when the resolution of a system is considered.

    With the ever moving improvements of the technical community both technologies have been working its way towards each other. Servos can now be controlled just like stepper systems and Multi-stepping systems with current reduction at stand still make them behave much more alike.

    High end CNC's use servos as these are proven ways to get high speeds in a proven, albeit more complex and espensive package.

  10. #10
    Gold Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Posts
    578
    NC Cams, nice post! Thank you.
    Steve

  11. #11
    Registered
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    3319
    Glad to help.

    There are only so many ways to boil a 3 minute egg just as there is are limited ways to answer the seemingly repeatedly asked servo/stepper question.

  12. #12
    Registered
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    19
    I saw a plasma cutter at a friend's shop over the weekend. It has stepper motors. In my opinion, right sized steppers will work fine for plasma table. There is no load other than fiction from linear rails and ballscrew. The plasma tip is skating on the surface of the metal sheet. If the tip barely touchs the metal sheet, unlike endmill, how can you lose step. And, even if a few steps were lost, I think it will be O.K. because plasma cutting is not as precise as milling. Also metal tends to expand when heated-range depends on materials' C.T.E. So, the first cut out is close, the second cut out is somewhat smaller after cooling down, and the piece that was cut when the sheet was hottest will be smallest. I think stepper motor setup will save me money and expansive servo system is not necessary in this application.

  13. #13
    Registered
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    1
    I am having trouble adjusting my servos.
    The arcs that I rout are not very smooth. I can feel the table vibrating on curves. When I turn the damp and gain I get no resulting change in the motor oscillation. Any ideas?

  14. #14
    Registered
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    3319
    Servo or stepper???

    Slow down the feed (servo) to reduce "hunting" from overshoot.

    Try slowing down your feed or use microstepping (steppers) - sounds like you're running into an oscillation problem that microstepping might solve.

    Look for RF noise in cableing - this causes all kinds of buggaboos.

  15. #15
    Servos vs. steppers. Nice list, I wrote and I still like it.:-)

    Let me add a little to it that may be otherwise practical:

    If you are designing a machine and you get to motors, the first thing you should do is calculate the power you need. Never buy a motor (stepper or sevro) first and then figure out if it will fit what you need. That is the sign of an amateur or hack.

    Motors are motors. They couple power to your mechanism and power is what makes things happen. The choice of a motor comes after you know what's needed.

    Power is velocity times force or torque times RPM. It doesn't matter if the motors are steppers, servos or a gerbil in a spinning squirrel cage at the start.

    To seperate what motor need (neglect the gerbil), is the power your mechanism needs.

    Rule #1: If you need 100 Watts or less, use a step motor. If you need 200 Watts or more, you must use a servo. In between, either will do.

    So, how do you figure the power you need?

    Method 1: You have a plasma table, wood router or some other low work-load mechanism. You have a clear idea of how many IPM you want but your'e not sure of what force you want at that speed.

    Pick the weight of the heaviest item you are pushing around. If it weighs 40lbs, use 40lbs. Multiply it by the IPM you want. Say that's 1,000 IPM. Divide the result by the magic number "531". The answer is 75.3 Watts so use a step motor.

    Eq: Watts = IPM * Lbs / 531

    Method 2: You have a Bridgeport CNC conversion you are doing. The machine has a 5 TPI screw and you need a work feedrate of 120 IPM. 120 IPM on a 5TPI screw 5 * 120 or 600 RPM.

    How about force? Not a clue? Use your machinist's experience on a manual machine. The handcrank is about 6" inches in diameter. How much force would you place on the handcranck before you figure you're not doing something right? I hear about 10 Lbs.

    !0 Lbs is 160 oz, 160 oz on the end of a 3" moment-arm (6" diameter, remember?) is 480 in-oz (3 times 160) ot torque on the leadscrew.

    The equation for rotary power is: Watts = in-oz * RPM / 1351

    For this example, Watts = 480 in-oz * 600 RPM / 1351 or 213 Watts.

    213 Watts is servo territory. You have to use a servo motor to get that, about a NEMA-34 one.

    OK. Long post, late night. If anyone cares, let me know. Proper application of servo motors is an entirely different topic, it's involved but not particularly difficult. Servos are not steppers and they are not interchanchable. Let me know if I should continue.

    Mariss

  16. #16
    Gold Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    742
    Mariss,

    Please continue with the Servo information. It is an asset to this site and to all members and visitors alike.

    Jerry

  17. #17

  18. #18
    Registered
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Posts
    3319
    Please add/continue whatever pearls of wisdom you have on applying servos.

    I've already appended my cheat sheet with post 15 and I'll append again with whatever you post after that.

    Surely, the subject will come up again and these highly valuable replies surely need to be linked to - good information should NEVER go to waste or go un-recorded/un-documented.

    At least if you post it, it will be on record and linkable to henceforth. Not posting the info will only lead to idle conjecture and the dissemination of "sage wisdom" that is often anything BUT.

  19. #19
    Registered
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    21
    Don't forget the use of gearing or toothed belt drives for increasing the mechanical advantage the motor may need to push around a heavy cut. A NEMA 23 servo (Moog 53) I have at 2:1 reduction will not even strain on a 1/2" Dia cutter .375" deep in oak. I haven't challenged the unit any more than that so really don't know where the limit may be.
    I really prefer servo's and have found no more difficulty setting up the PID routines than one would have in tuning the steppers.

  20. #20
    Registered
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    1062
    Excellent posts NC and Marriss. Keep up the good work guys :cheers:
    Keith

Page 1 of 4 123

Similar Threads

  1. STEPPER v/s SERVO
    By sanjiv in forum Stepper Motors / Drives
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 11-15-2007, 11:29 AM
  2. oz/in. on a servo is it the same as on a stepper?
    By CATCH22 in forum Servo Motors / Drives
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 10-15-2006, 12:43 AM
  3. rpm of stepper vs servo's
    By Ed Williams in forum Servo Motors / Drives
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 05-15-2006, 01:42 AM
  4. Servo vs. Stepper
    By rackbox in forum DIY CNC Router Table Machines
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 11-29-2004, 12:23 AM

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •